BlueSkittles Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Found another great Devolore tankspot video about bringing back the community by having Normal dungeons, then Hardmode dungeons, both using LFD. Then having Hard-Hardmode dungeons that don't use LFD and can only be used by manually getting groups together, which MAY or MAY NOT bring back a sense of community. Also, WoW is adding speed run dungeons in MOP (the next xpac) which might also bring back in a sense of community. Anyway, here's the video queued to the good spot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQK2tcP5Jxc&feature=colike#t=04m42s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkittles Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 @Aeon, Blue Just like to thank the both of you keeping the good posts and keeping the discussion going and refraining from making our concerns come off as childish whims. Unfortunately though I believe we've lost a bunch of posters since we got moved to the suggestion forum, people both for and against. I'd enjoyed my daily rattlings from SavagePotato and DevianSlice, actually n/m he still posts just not often. Wish Forrez (spelling?) would come back I'm going to make another mega post soon, I've had a lot of time to talk to some players and I understand more where they are coming from, so I can tweak it a bit. Also want to add some of those great links you added Blue for quick reference. I was reading the past page of the thread, Bioware make an announcement on the LFD interface or something? Looks like I gotta go diggin! It would be nice if we could edit the fist page of this thread with all of the new info (especially your nice list Touch). Does anyone know Obi-Wun so we can do that? And yeah, looks like we've definitely lost some posters and traffic by being moved to Suggestions. Is there a way we can cross-post things without getting the wrath of Bioware? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dargor- Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Its a social game, which has been proven to be ruined by LFG systems in the past. I will leave if they introduce LFG, as much as i love the game. Ill be one in minutes and so will a hell of a lot of others. Simply put, we cannot stand it. Since when is 5% a hell of a lot? Also, you may as well pack your bags now because Dungeon Finder has already been confirmed, it's only a matter of cross-server or not now. Can I have your stuff? Edited January 23, 2012 by dargor- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acheros Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Its a social game, which has been proven to be ruined by LFG systems in the past. I will leave if they introduce LFG, as much as i love the game. Ill be one in minutes and so will a hell of a lot of others. Simply put, we cannot stand it. I'm going to jsut, go ahead and quote myself here from earlier in thread. I just really wish people would stop perpetrating the rumor that cross-server LFD had anything to do with the collapse of communities. Communities suck because people are jerks, want proof? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=173847 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=53929 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=186666 That was from a minute long search.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manathayria Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I met the people in my raid guild on WoW, and Rift, and FFXI in pugs... on server. You can't do that on cross server dungeons as well. That said, I would like to see how well a server *only* tool works, then, possibly, go for cross server. It has been my experience in the past that people are more complete *******es in pugs that are cross server than when it's server only. Which is also why I say give the option of: []cross server []server only. should it go live. Also, the quotes showing 'why are people such asses' type posts don't mean much. The guy that gets burned and gets a bad group is far more likely to run to the forums screaming about it than the guy that runs 10 instances in a row that go well. Which is again, why there are so many that are absolutely opposed to cross server LFD - they got burned by it in another game. Which again, is why I'm open to cross server, but want first to see how well server only goes, then give cross a shot if it's not hideous. The reason for giving the option for '[]server only' is because once the genie is out of the bottle in this case, it's damn hard to shove it back in if things go wrong, and it'd give those that have been burned by cross server LFD and feel it would do more harm than good have a sort of 'safe haven' to fall back on for groups while still using the tool. Furthermore, I believe that BW needs to fix more of the existing bugs before they start looking at introducing something new to the system that may give us still more bugs. There is at least a LFD type tool with WZ right now - there is nothing (that I'm aware of) that's cross server at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubberlick Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Please no dungeon finder. I would just like to add to this debate that Dungeon finder is what ruined WoW for me personally. While some will disagree and some will agree, I for one would stop playing this if they add a dungeon finder. If I wanted to play WoW I would play WoW, it has more players and I already have a million gold and several 85s. No reason to start over here just to play the same game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dargor- Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I met the people in my raid guild on WoW, and Rift, and FFXI in pugs... on server. You can't do that on cross server dungeons as well. That said, I would like to see how well a server *only* tool works, then, possibly, go for cross server. Guilds are found on chat channels and/or websites. As for non-cross server dungeon finder I can already tell you, the queues will be 2 hours long, which is against the whole point of having a dungeon finder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I met the people in my raid guild on WoW, and Rift, and FFXI in pugs... on server. You can't do that on cross server dungeons as well. Yes you can... City of Heroes has cross-server global names and a global friends list, hey had it in the game 7 years ago, and I hear your precious WoW has this now too (called battle tags or whatever.) This is not a valid argument. Edited January 23, 2012 by AeonWeapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brusthoden Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 How many people have character transferred to a guild to raid? Lots i have at least twice. If your going to raid seriously you do research it isnt a hey your a cool person lets go thats a casual raider and you still do research on them in case they suck. But free character transfer like rift would solve it even though its not an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brusthoden Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm going to jsut, go ahead and quote myself here from earlier in thread. Liked your linked posts they do show exactly what people are refusing to see. Blind ignorance i guess cause it's all around them. People are douchebags and ninjas where ever they are it's the internet you can be a bully without getting beat up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 How many people have character transferred to a guild to raid? Lots i have at least twice. If your going to raid seriously you do research it isnt a hey your a cool person lets go thats a casual raider and you still do research on them in case they suck. But free character transfer like rift would solve it even though its not an issue Character transfers would solve nothing, they would just turn alot of servers into bigger ghost towns than they already are... and knowing EA, they would not be free. LFG is needed for those of us who can't always play at peak hours, and even if we can play at peak hours, it just takes too long to organize a group when all you have for you player pool is the population of one server, and only who happens to be online at the moment, and only the few who are actually looking to do the particular FP you want to do right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brusthoden Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Character transfers would solve nothing, they would just turn alot of servers into bigger ghost towns than they already are... and knowing EA, they would not be free. LFG is needed for those of us who can't always play at peak hours, and even if we can play at peak hours, it just takes too long to organize a group when all you have for you player pool is the population of one server, and only who happens to be online at the moment, and only the few who are actually looking to do the particular FP you want to do right now. I'd like to see free server transfers i got 2 groups of friend would be nice to merge on a server. BW dont be greedy rift set the trend go big or go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbral Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) A brief and concise history of the "Anti Cross-Server LFD Tool" movement. Blizz introduced the Cross-Server LFD tool. It was very well received. Not too long after it was released a couple of players from Moon Guard (a notorious RP server in WoW) server made posts on the main WoW forums about getting kicked from groups when players saw the name of their server. Role players were aghast, and took it as a personal affront, and also, like all whack jobs, blew the situation way way out of proportion and started believing that it could happen to them as well. Could quickly became did as many began to lie to prop up their negative rhetoric. More and more RPers gathered with their torches and pitchforks! "Down with the cross-server LFD tool!" was the cry! The word spread around various RP communities on different gaming sites, and more torches and pitchforks were added to the mob. No one cared much about the possibility of a few RPers getting kicked from groups, so they had to find new "reasons" why Cross-Server LFD tools were the big baddie. So then we started reading the complete horsepucky about "ruined community" and "decreased socializing", and "server self-policing" (that has never ever worked btw) etc etc. Bioware, to be frank, if you sunk the amount of money you did into this game, and didn't research mmos enough to know this story already, then .... you know.. really I don't know what to say about that. You're letting a small sub-set lead you where your competition wants you. Exactly where it wants you. Gimped. Edited January 23, 2012 by Umbral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acheros Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Also, the quotes showing 'why are people such asses' type posts don't mean much. The guy that gets burned and gets a bad group is far more likely to run to the forums screaming about it than the guy that runs 10 instances in a row that go well. Which is again, why there are so many that are absolutely opposed to cross server LFD - they got burned by it in another game. But isn't that the exact same thing about cross server LFG? You ONLY HEAR about the people who get ninjad or kicked for no reason, you don't hear about the millions, no..BILLIONS of other times people do just fine in a group with no problem? or even when they make friends from cross realm LFG? Really, if you're going to pull the vocal minority card, remember it can be said for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Like the guy said in one of blue's videos earlier in this thread... It sucks to have to spend so long getting a team together, when your game experience is waiting around for a team instead of actually playing the game, it's not a good game experience, and it's not good business to have paying customers not enjoying themselves. Even IF all the arguments people give about community and ending up with bad players and blah blah, etc etc, WERE true, it's better to be playing the game than waiting around. I would happily end up teaming with jerks sometimes if it meant I could actually play the game content I wish to play. Edited January 23, 2012 by AeonWeapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neiloch Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) DF, needed? Give over! The system now is perfectly fine, flag yourself for the dungeon you want or find players yourself. The console generation have really invaded Its not needed, People are just too lazy and need that one magic button. This generation of MMO players (if you can call them that) are so *** **** lazy. Get social. This game promotes it in every corner. IF you wont, its your issue. But quit crying for another MMO to be turned into a lobby game. Again as I and many other have stated, we have tried all this to no success. Seriously what is with all these self centered people who completely lack a sense of empathy? I just imagine these people saying 'everything's fine!' while everyone else is dying of the plague just because they haven't caught it. Bet they're the same people who cry nerf when they get trounced in PvP all day or someone who knows what they are doing outperforms them in groups. The lazy argument has already been dashed by the 'its a video game and I shouldn't have to put in work to participate in one the most common activities' argument. Here let's make it harder just to log on and call anyone who whines 'lazy', would make just as much sense. To show some compromise I will propose this. I will be more than willing to keep things for FP's in their current state if they force PvP warzones to work the same way. You have to put together a team, all go to the warzone, and hope some other team is also waiting and ready to go. If you are vehemently opposed to this change while still opposing a LFD tool, you are a dishonest hypocrite. And my daily update: I got no groups last night after being LFG for an hour. I could have tried longer but I promised myself I wouldn't since last time I did it for 2 hours and I still got nothing. My brother has a level 50 dps and level 50 healer both on different servers and without even telling him about this thread or my own problems he came and told me how he couldn't find a group on either server. I proceeded to go play BF3 with great joy (has much better tools to help play with other people FYI) and he opted to play on a SNES emulator. Where was my head SWTOR's grouping is CLEARLY in top shape! Edited January 23, 2012 by Neiloch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrones Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 waah waaah it destroys the community. So does trying to get a group for hours. Fed up with waiting for 3 hours to get a group running or 6 hours to get a WZ running. Don't like it? Don't use it. Why is that so hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) But isn't that the exact same thing about cross server LFG? You ONLY HEAR about the people who get ninjad or kicked for no reason, you don't hear about the millions, no..BILLIONS of other times people do just fine in a group with no problem? or even when they make friends from cross realm LFG? Really, if you're going to pull the vocal minority card, remember it can be said for both sides. This is lies again, you can't ninja in the LFD system. Jesus, if there it at least one thing I can get across is that you cannot steal loot. Losing a roll on something that you wanted and felt that you deserved =/= stealing. Don't you realize why Blizzard allows off-spec rolling? They could shut it down if they wanted to like they did in the LFR but off-spec is essential to the LFD's success. People lack the foresight to understand why. Most people who get kicked said something they shouldn't of said or did something really stupid. Under normal circumstances they wouldn't of been "kicked" from a normal group but also under normal cirucumstances they wouldn't even be in a group in the first place. Again, this is a lack of proper foresight into an issue. Edited January 23, 2012 by Touchbass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Good to see people recognizing the problem at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuickSaveTV Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I support the author's encouragement for a LFG tool, because of many reasons mentioned above. This is a powerful tool that helps to avoid Time Sink which is necessary in order to even get a shot at in-game FP and Ops content. Of course, as more and more players progress in levels to reach 50 and other players are filling almost each level niche it becomes easier to find a group through General channel on Fleet, however it does not diminish the value of the LFG tool, as it will allow many players to sign for content in the game, while being on their day-to-day business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neiloch Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Also, for the 'destroys community' people: were you or were you not meeting more new and random people after the LFD system was put in place on WoW/rift? Ever think the reason you perceived a 'decrease' in community was that your groups were no longer made up of pre-approved friends and guildees and these 'mean people' just always existed? These undesirables always existed, the LFD just brought it into the light. That is unless you can show me a few dozen examples of people you knew of that were fine before the LFD system then quick-change transformed into complete a-holes once it was introduced and can prove it was because of the LFD system. Just because you started running into more undesirable people post LFD doesn't mean the community suddenly got worse. Correlation doesn't not equate to causation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrones Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Also, for the 'destroys community' people: were you or were you not meeting more new and random people after the LFD system was put in place on WoW/rift? Ever think the reason you perceived a 'decrease' in community was that your groups were no longer made up of pre-approved friends and guildees and these 'mean people' just always existed? These undesirables always existed, the LFD just brought it into the light. That is unless you can show me a few dozen examples of people you knew of that were fine before the LFD system then quick-change transformed into complete a-holes once it was introduced and can prove it was because of the LFD system. Just because you started running into more undesirable people post LFD doesn't mean the community suddenly got worse. Correlation doesn't not equate to causation. This is right tbh, after the LFG/LFD tool was implemented i met ALOT more people from other servers, hence was alot more social. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Bring awareness to your server!!! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=223855 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=224095 Spread the word!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) This is the reality of the situation for myself and many like-minded players. Let's begin explaining it in real life terms: The following post is bolded to illustrate my mounting frustration with this issue and to shout that annoyance into some thick skulls who refuse to see that I cannot play this game I'm paying for! This is where I am as of today: I have been wanting to run end game content with my level 50 that turned level 50 about 10 days ago... For about 5 days, I ran daily missions and got equipped with level 50 purple mods (I had all the armoring and hilt after day 3 already, and crafted myself purple level 50 enhancements) and each day after my dailies I kept trying to find people to do Battle of Ilum, The False Emperor, Kaon, Karagga's Palace, or any Hard Mode with. You know what FPs I did in that 5 days? Hard Black Talon... once. (A purple 50 earpiece with my stats dropped at least.) Each day I spent about an hour after my dailies trying to find a team and only that one day succeeded. No one does any of the level 50 FPs (which I would love to do to see the story) and they just grind HMs, but it's hard to find teams for those, and half the teams won't let you in unless you're already wearing Tionese/Columni gear ("What's your willpower?" "1150" "Get it up to 1350+ first")... and I'm a HEALER! [Like I said before, it's like those entry-level jobs that won't hire you unless you already have 3-4 years experience, it's elitist and, as Touchbass said, it's a catch 22.] I went through 5 days of that. Now lets talk about the next 5 days: What have I done for those 5 days? I've logged in for about 15 minutes each day, didn't feel like grinding dailies, wanted to do FPs. I would shout for a team about 15 minutes (healer LFT level 50 FPs or HMs) in hope I would get lucky enough to catch a team in that short time. I didn't feel like waiting an hour or more and having the same unsuccessful results. I just didn't feel like doing it beyond 15 minutes, so I would just log out and do something else. I'm not having fun... I can't play the content I want to play, I haven't actually played the game in 5 days. Yesterday I logged into my City of Heroes account, this is the game I played and loved for years while people were playing WoW. Within 10 minutes I had a team of 8 people and was running a Strikeforce mission (Flashpoint equivalent.) I had alot of fun, remembered how easy it is to get a team together to do team content in that game, remembered that even for regular missions, I was ALWAYS running with a team in that game for ALL the content, and have a BLAST. So... this new game, TOR, set in the star wars universe I LOVE so much, is not fun for me, in fact I now feel like I just payed for 5 days of NOT playing the game, going on 6. And the game I started playing 7 years ago is still fun to me. I have some free time today, I'm off from work, and I would love to be running Flashpoints right now, but I don't feel like bothering to even log in because I know I won't be able to find a team, I'll just waste my time. I'm going to go do my daily workout now, because that's a far more productive use of the next hour of time than it would be sitting on my butt staring at a screen and sending my companions out to have more fun on missions than I'm having myself. So, where do I stand as of now? I registered a 60 day time card on day 15 of the 30 days that came with my game disc. I have 58 days left and have removed my credit card from my account page. That time is ticking away as I'm unable to play the game, and it feels futile to log in and even try. The conclusion is this: Bioware already has my money for the next 58 days, and they have 58 days to get me playing again. If that 58 days passes and there is still no viable utility available to me in the game which will allow me to play the content I really want to play, I will not be registering a credit card or buying another time card. Even now, as my payed time is wasting away, I'm going to spend my relax-and-play-games time playing City of Heroes, because I can log into that game and get a team together and be doing fun stuff within 15 minutes at the most. And now I'll just say what the naysayers are going to say to me to save them the trouble: "So go play City of Heroes" "Ok, bye in 58 days" "You're lazy, log in and LFG for an hour and you'll get a team" (there's a very likely chance that even if I did spend an hour LFG I still wouldn't get one.) Edited January 23, 2012 by AeonWeapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Bring awareness to your server!!! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=223855 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=224095 Spread the word!!! Yes we know about the existing tool, and it's not good enough, still takes an hour to find all the right classes to get a proper team together, when you need tank, healer and 2 DPS. The fact is we're very limited... We're limited by having a max team size of 4, but needing 3 roles. We're limited to the population of one server to choose teammates from. We're limited to who happens to be online at the moment to join us. We're limited to who happens to be looking to do one of the same FPs you want to do at the moment. And we're limited by the fact that we can only communicate to people in one zone. Average population on the fleet, the only place people look for groups, I find is usually 60-70 people, maybe 20 of them are LFG, maybe 1 or 2 are looking for the same FP, but are they the roles your team needs? If not you have to keep shouting until one of each role shows up... Ok I teamed with two, but one got tired of waiting and left the team, great... the other guy sees him leave and he leaves too, perfect, teamed with no one again... People need to stop preaching, you know this is the reality of the situation. WE ALL KNOW THIS IS WHAT'S HAPPENING! Edited January 23, 2012 by AeonWeapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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