Bioware: Allow Advanced Class Respec!

[Sabarok]

Get this through your thick skull:

 

NO ONE IS GETTING FREE CLASSES!!!!

 

Yes, they are. Players leveled a Vanguard, not a Guardian. You don't get to play 1 class and get to play all the others for free. If you want to play a Guardian too, you have to do it from scratch. That's MMOs.

 

By this logic, going to a friend's house and playing their class that's a different AC of one of my classes is getting a class for free.

 

That would qualify as sharing an account and is a bannable offense. It's rarely enforced, but it does serve as a great example of getting a class for free. That's why the TOS has it as bannable.

 

It simply isn't the case. Open your character selection screen and you only have ONE CHARACTER! If you switch ACs, guess what? YOU STILL ONLY HAVE ONE CHARACTER!!!

 

As long as any form of AC switching is time and cost prohibitive, you will NEVER be getting something for free.

 

The time prohibitive is already there. 100 hours of playing a new alt.

 

Getting to try the other side of the class that a player turned down might be enough to keep that player playing as opposed to quitting.

 

If they're so ready to quit now, why would the other AC be keeping them for years to come?

 

Like I said earlier, one of my guildies has already gone back to WoW because he hated sentinel so much. My fiancee is likewise halfway out the door because she's not having much fun with her sentinel, either. Neither of these people are altaholics. Their thoughts on ONE class represents their thoughts on the entire game, and right now, they're not happy.

 

Has WoW allowed them to switch classes because they are unhappy? If those two players are so fickle as to be quitting because they chose the wrong class, SWTOR should not be bending over backwards to accommodate them. Let them go play the other MMO where class changes are also prohibited.

 

If my fiancee goes back to WoW, that'll leave me playing SWTOR alone, which dramatically diminishes my reason for playing it.

 

If these two players could switch to guardian, I'd guess they'd both be happier with the game because guardian doesn't suck half as bad as sentinel does.

 

So yeah, I have REAL WORLD EXAMPLES of how AC switching could save subs for SWTOR, including mine.

 

So to save 2 subs on the short term, Bioware needs to remove half of the playable classes? That would be a long term disaster. Could it be that these 2 subs aren't going to be happy no matter what class they play? If they change subs and don't like it, should Bioware now give them the ability to change base classes?

 

To players quitting because they are bored of their 1 character and aren't willing to reroll: Good-Bye. Better luck on your next MMO, this one just isn't for you.

[jjfddf]

You are all fooling yourself if you think this will not happen, in the least this WILL happen, but I imagine they will take it a step farther and do dual speccing in a tree also. Edited January 30, 2012 by jjfddf

[TheRealDestian]

Are you sure you're arguing for AC respec? It sure looks like you're trying to argue for a base class change.

 

I'm sure someone who hates scoundrel might like gunslinger. I'm sure someone who finds they were lied to about sentinel might like guardian, and I'm sure someone who leveled a class they don't like because everyone on the forums said "It gets good at 40, keep playing!" would be less likely to unsub if they could try the other AC.

 

It's unfortunate that you have to resort to slander and insults to try and prove your point.

 

Creationists say that, because people are mad at them, it means there's a modicum of truth to their beliefs. What they don't understand is that people are mad at them because they choose to ignore all evidence and reason that plainly points out that their belief is wrong.

 

You're being "insulted" because you've demonstrated a complete inability to argue your point logically and instead fall back to the dogmatic nonsense of "That's part of the value of an MMO.".

 

Expect more people to get even more angry with you.

 

You didn't level a guardian, you leveled a sentinel. That's part of the value of an MMO.

 

What is this "value" you speak of?

 

Could it be a tired, archaic concept that aging MMO players spout when they have nothing even loosely resembling an argument?

 

Yes, someone leveled a sentinel, and they hate it so much that they're quitting the game. Maybe guardian was just the class they were looking for, the class that would've kept them playing and paying for years to come, but we'll never know because they've dismissed the game as crap.

 

If you're going to argue that we shouldn't let people switch ACs and maybe find the class they like because "That's part of the value of an MMO", then you're clearly placing your dogmatic crap ahead of Bioware's best financial interests and as such have no say in this discussion.

 

If ever there was a statement where logic was thrown out the window, it's this one. Giving players free access to another AC so they don't have to level another character will encourage them to level more alts?

 

Yes, because you can only have one at a time EACH MONTH, ergo if you want to use both on a regular basis, you'll need to level another.

 

This isn't rocket science...

 

There's a reason MMOs don't do this. For every month's worth of sub this lets them keep, they lose a thousand subs from players leaving.

 

More hyperbolic bull-**** that you cannot backup with even an ounce of proof.

 

Logic & Reason are on my side. The current state of SWTOR is on my side. WoW is on my side. FF XI is on my side. Every MMO I can think of is on my side. If the decision to prevent class changes is "illogical and without reason", why hasn't every MMO jumped on the bandwagon to save subs? They have looked at it with logic and reason and realized that it will cost them a lot more subs than they'll ever save.

 

1. You have no evidence to suggest that the many, MANY people who left these MMOs you listed would not have stayed had they been able to change their class. You're saying, "These MMOs are successful, ergo class changes aren't needed". How much MORE successful would they have been if class changes were allowed?

 

2. WoW is a lousy example because leveling in WoW happens so fast it's ridiculous. In the amount of time it takes to level one character to 50 in SWTOR, you could probably have leveled 2 to 85 in WoW (and leveled 10 to 50). If you find you don't like a character in WoW at level 30, it'll take a day or two tops to have another one to 30. This is not the case for SWTOR.

 

Anyone willing to quit over it is better off quitting. Those aren't players that will stick around long even if the change is implemented.

 

You've never played a class in an MMO and said "WOW THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER!!!", then? I know I have and I know plenty of other people who have.

 

If I had leveled a commando first and only a commando, I'd probably be contemplating quitting this game right now.

 

The simple fact is this: if I dislike the class I'm playing and it's the ONLY class I've played, I'm FAR more likely to simply assume that this is how my experiences are going to be with the remainder of the classes and quit. I've known several people who have done this in MMOs and two of them are doing it RIGHT NOW in SWTOR.

[Asnine]

Would both sides be happy with an option for a one time swap of AC's?

[TheRealDestian]

Instead of advanced class respec, why not give levels to alt of the same class. You would still would be able to experience both advanced class options, it just wouldn't be as easy as dropping a few credits.

 

Make leveling a second character with the same class easier to level, but give them their own identity.

 

See, this I can agree with, because you're giving the player a chance to try the tree they missed without having to relevel all the way to learn that they might not like that class either.

[Lagmonster]

Are you sure you're arguing for AC respec? It sure looks like you're trying to argue for a base class change.

 

Pretty sure you're just putting words in his mouth. As there is a noticeable difference

 

 

 

It's unfortunate that you have to resort to slander and insults to try and prove your point.

 

And your hyperbole and what if dream worlds are great for your point?

 

 

You didn't level a guardian, you leveled a sentinel. That's part of the value of an MMO.

 

He leveled a jedi Knight, guardian and sentinel are glorified "specs". Sharing half the same base abilities.

 

If ever there was a statement where logic was thrown out the window, it's this one. Giving players free access to another AC so they don't have to level another character will encourage them to level more alts?

 

Do you really just fail at logic? If you have a high cost tagged onto the advance class change or long time period. And the player finds they enjoy BOTH advance classes (where he wouldn't have other wise tried it, cause involves leveling another character) They will be more willing to level that second toon instead of always switching. The current system discourages leveling another toon of the same base class, because your going through the SAME story. Where again, if you tried the other advance class and enjoyed it. It would then be WORTH leveling another toon of the same base class so you could play both. (note, it only becomes motivational if there is a high cost/time period between changes)

 

There's a reason MMOs don't do this. For every month's worth of sub this lets them keep, they lose a thousand subs from players leaving.

 

Facts to back this up? I'd love to see your insight as to why every person that quits has for a reason.

 

 

Logic & Reason are on my side. The current state of SWTOR is on my side. WoW is on my side. FF XI is on my side. Every MMO I can think of is on my side. If the decision to prevent class changes is "illogical and without reason", why hasn't every MMO jumped on the bandwagon to save subs? They have looked at it with logic and reason and realized that it will cost them a lot more subs than they'll ever save. Anyone willing to quit over it is better off quitting. Those aren't players that will stick around long even if the change is implemented.

 

Yes the gods of logic and reason are completely on your side:rolleyes: The sky's turned black, and in crimson clouds we all seen "Sabarok is right!"

 

And if the current state of Tor is on your side, well god help us, because its been pretty crappy design so far. Mean some great logic on the illum changes, pvp gearing system, raid encounter design, daily questing system, User interface design(or lack of), ability delay, etc. The story/leveling is literally the only real redeeming aspect of the game to me

 

There's a reason a lot more people are talking about MMO burnout in general. Because its the same old tired formula. You need not look any further than wow trying to turn its ship on design with its falling sub numbers.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Lagmonster

[TheRealDestian]

Yes, they are. Players leveled a Vanguard, not a Guardian. You don't get to play 1 class and get to play all the others for free.

 

You don't get "all the others for free". You get to try the other side you didn't pick at the cost of no longer having the first one.

 

If you want to play a Guardian too, you have to do it from scratch. That's MMOs.

 

-Players lose exp. on death. That's MMOs.

-Players drop items on death. That's MMOs.

-Enchanting something and failing means the item is destroyed. That's MMOs.

-Being killed in PvP means the enemy gets to loot your corpse. That's MMOs.

-If you want to kill that rare mob, you need to camp it for 3 days straight. That's MMOs.

 

Moving away from the aforementioned design pitfalls is what made WoW the amazing success it is today. SWTOR could stand to take a page from that book.

 

That would qualify as sharing an account and is a bannable offense. It's rarely enforced, but it does serve as a great example of getting a class for free. That's why the TOS has it as bannable.

 

If I go to a trade show showcasing SWTOR and I try out the other AC spec, have I gotten a free class from it?

 

The time prohibitive is already there. 100 hours of playing a new alt.

 

If I go to a restaurant and order the "super burger" from the menu, and it turns out to be a burger with nails in it, I shouldn't have to pay for the burger AGAIN when I send the nail burger back to get one without nails.

 

This is exactly what AC switching is: I'm giving my AC BACK in exchange for a different one, probably the one I wanted in the first place but didn't know because they menu wasn't clear.

 

If they're so ready to quit now, why would the other AC be keeping them for years to come?

 

Because maybe they'll play the other AC and it strikes a chord with them whereas they don't like their current AC at all.

 

Has WoW allowed them to switch classes because they are unhappy? If those two players are so fickle as to be quitting because they chose the wrong class, SWTOR should not be bending over backwards to accommodate them. Let them go play the other MMO where class changes are also prohibited.

 

Again, it's that kind of selfish garbage that invalidates your argument.

 

If you'd rather see players leave the game than not adhere to your dogmatic nonsense principles, you're placing your own hangups over the health of the game.

 

So to save 2 subs on the short term, Bioware needs to remove half of the playable classes? That would be a long term disaster. Could it be that these 2 subs aren't going to be happy no matter what class they play? If they change subs and don't like it, should Bioware now give them the ability to change base classes?

 

Thank you for demonstrating, for EVERYONE, just how little comprehension you have of the situation.

 

The people I'm using are EXAMPLES of people in this situation, the obvious implication being that there are OTHER PEOPLE in the exact same boat, feeling the exact same way.

 

This is like talking to a brick wall of ignorance...

 

Please STOP being THIS GUY!

Edited January 30, 2012 by TheRealDestian

[TheRealDestian]

Would both sides be happy with an option for a one time swap of AC's?

 

I would.

 

One chance to try the other side so you didn't just waste 30 levels on a character that everyone SAID gets better but you never like even a bit more.

[Vlacke]

wrong, im 50 , and i dont like my AC,

cause it is not as useful as it wrote,

BW, let user change their AC.

 

It's a shame that it took 50 levels for you to realize that you choose a wrong AC, i have a feeling that the majority of people are capable of figuring that out much sooner.

So your cries are of nobody's concern really.

 

If Bioware wanted to allow AC change they would have done so in the first place, picking your AC is a choice that matters, it's a UNIQUE class and it's change shouldn't be allowed.

 

The only way i would be ok with AC change is if it were available by paying some HUGE amount of credits in game or paying real $$ to do so, and if it could be done only once.

[AzKnc]

110% Signed and hopeful that this will eventually make it in game.

 

I have made all classes as far as proper term of the word is concerned. I have 4 republic chars with one ac, and 4 empire chars with the opposite ac. With even more than at 50 & geared.

 

The way it is now, if you do what i did, you can't have "doubles" on the same server to pick the other ac in the same faction, but regardless of this, even if there were more char slots per server, i would NEVER do it, because re leveling to 50 and having to start over pvp/social/gear wise to play what's basically just a different spec is an insult to my inteligence.

 

Advanced classes, despite having the word "class" in them, are just glorified specs, nothing more. There are classes on wow that play in completly different ways depending on which tree you spec, and they're far more different depending on their trees, than some of the classes in this game are depedning on the ac you pick.

 

Advanced classes share story, resource mechanic, more than half the skills, a third of the talents, general looks, and in some cases playstyle as well. They are NOT different classes.

 

And no, i would NOT be happy with a one time switch, sure it would be better than nothing for people who made a mistake or whatever, but that's not the point here.

 

The point is that if i rolled characters that can do x or y, i want to do x or y as i please depending on how i feel that day/hour/minute, not be stuck with x or y forever FOR NO REAL REASON.

 

Not being able to switch ac doesn't add ANYTHING to the game, i've yet to hear a compelling argument that doesn't border on roleplaying/masochistic insanity that supports the current system.. "your class is more special because you can't switch" and stuff like those.. Right.

Edited January 30, 2012 by AzKnc

[havok_bloodcraft]

Everything I've seen and experienced runs contrary to what you've said here, mainly in that guardians are flat out better than sentinels because they actually have some crowd control whereas sentinels are pure DPS and wear medium as opposed to heavy armor, meaning they're a non-ranged paper cannon. Also, having a tank spec means you won't be bloody worthless in the endgame.

 

And you had to level two characters to 45/50 in order to have them.

 

Like I said, she doesn't do alts. Hates them, in fact, so she won't be leveling a new character. She'll be unsubbing.

 

Explain to me how being able to AC respec once every 30 DAYS is somehow "having both".

 

If the respec involves:

 

-waiting 30 days (or let it happen only once and then you're DEFINITELY stuck with it)

-having to rebuy ALL skills for that AC

-a hefty respec fee

 

I don't see how this could be abused or even remotely unacceptable. It could, however, save subs for people who kept saying "Maybe it gets fun at 20, maybe 30, I hear it gets fun at 40", etc.

 

yes I leveled 2 characters one jedi one sith because while playing my juggernaut I felt like her that dual wield would be better so I rolled one and discover through use not better, equal. maybe she just doesn't like the game but if you and her were running around together she shouldn't have any problems and either she wanted a second lightsaber or a shield those are the options. she had a preference upon making the character and if she respec'd ac then she would just feel like it wasn't her on top of having to buy all new gear because without the second lightsaber she would have to have a full set of heavy and a decent shield fast.

[havok_bloodcraft]

and holy crap people this thread only exists because you could already respec your talents so you didn't have to beg for that feature like in other games. but since they let you have that certainly now you are owed more. Oh let me switch ac, oh let me switch race, oh let me switch base class or faction, oh let me buy invincibility for an hour. if this is what you guys want there are plenty of f2p games that have fan service updates to give you just those thing s go play them. I like this game and don't want you guys to tgm just because you are lazy and throw money at the screen.

[Ashyel]

Advanced classes are basically classes of their own. A Shadow and Sage are completely different classes. Arguing against this is pointless.

 

Let us switch advanced classes... There's no reason not to. Visiting a vendor is no less time-consuming than logging into an alt. It's the same exact thing, except your valour, social points, commendations, dsp/lsp are carried over.

 

If they allowed AC switching, you should obviously have to level both ACs from 10-50. You're a level 50 Shadow. You go to the respec NPC and choose "Switch Advanced Class". If you've never done it before, you're now a Level 10 Sage... congratulations. You just skipped redoing Tython. To Coruscant you go. Maybe boost exp gain if you have a higher level AC on the same character however just to make it a little less grindy.

 

And obviously, you should be able to switch back to your 50 Shadow.

 

This would also give bored level 50s something to do at end-game if they don't fancy restarting from scratch, but would enjoy trying out another class.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Ashyel

[Mormoz]

and holy crap people this thread only exists because you could already respec your talents so you didn't have to beg for that feature like in other games. but since they let you have that certainly now you are owed more. Oh let me switch ac, oh let me switch race, oh let me switch base class or faction, oh let me buy invincibility for an hour. if this is what you guys want there are plenty of f2p games that have fan service updates to give you just those thing s go play them. I like this game and don't want you guys to tgm just because you are lazy and throw money at the screen.

 

Lazy? I think we're all perfectly allowed to be lazy when playing a game thats made for our amusement. To what we pay upon that it amuses us and so that we can relax after a day of work. So yeah, its kinda obvious people are lazy here, since thats more or less the entire point of a game.

[havok_bloodcraft]

and holy crap people this thread only exists because you could already respec your talents so you didn't have to beg for that feature like in other games. but since they let you have that certainly now you are owed more. Oh let me switch ac, oh let me switch race, oh let me switch base class or faction, oh let me buy invincibility for an hour. if this is what you guys want there are plenty of f2p games that have fan service updates to give you just those thing s go play them. I like this game and don't want you guys to tgm just because you are lazy and throw money at the screen.

Lazy? I think we're all perfectly allowed to be lazy when playing a game thats made for our amusement. To what we pay upon that it amuses us and so that we can relax after a day of work. So yeah, its kinda obvious people are lazy here, since thats more or less the entire point of a game.

 

OK there is the pro Toggle God Mode response. "So I want to be lazy and invincible and do way more dps so I can faceroll this game and move to the next one. What's wrond with that?"

You sir are obviously a gentleman and a scholar but maybe have been hitting the spice a bit too much.

[Ookami]

Would both sides be happy with an option for a one time swap of AC's?

 

I would.

 

One chance to try the other side so you didn't just waste 30 levels on a character that everyone SAID gets better but you never like even a bit more.

 

I'd be happy with a limit of two swaps. One to change to the other AC (Sentinel > Guardian) for the reason stated by TheRealDestian above, and a second, if need be, to change back to your original choice if you don't like what you change to. I'd even be willing to spend credits to do this.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Ookami

[Elkard]

FOTM is here and it's...vanilla-strawberry, no wait, I want chocolate, no no, pineapple cream. I've already seen in chat and on the boards where people are saying: this AC, this build, is the best. Of course if you get 1000 of each type together you would probably get different answers. People just don't want slow fights; higher damge is the order of the day, but in reality less can be more, if played, smartly.

 

This AC and type debate will never end and evolve as more people decide to favor one AC and build for that class over another. So, the best way to satisfy everyone is to allow for the switching between AC and type--that is what, six builds in all per character--then when the FOTM changes one merely "changes" to that flavor. This will completely once and for all stop these endless circular debates about swaps, respecs, and cherry or no cherry on top.

 

As for me, I play eight characters, all different. If I don't like sniper, I can always respec to something else--for the AC change, I will just create--not "roll", there is no "rolling" in this style of character creation--another character for that AC. (Yeah, I'll be playing a long, long time, in a galaxy right around the corner.)

[TheRealDestian]

Rather than argue against people who may as well be creationists, I've come up with a compromise:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=252351

[Nanfoodle]

I 100% support AC swapping and I would like to see it cost as much as a normal respec. IMO this game would be much better for it and it would keep me subbing longer as I would more to do with my main char. Anything that keeps me playing end game without re-rolling wins my money.

[NDiggy]

I don't think you should be able swap back and forth at will, but it would be nice maybe if you got the option at around level 30 to change your AC and then maybe again at 50 before your AC becomes final. That would give you a chance to experience both playstyles and be better able to make an informed decision based on your own experience.

[Gainward]

oh yeah gief AC change.....NOT!!!!!! if u give ppl all they want and u will have a wow fail allover again

[TheRealDestian]

oh yeah gief AC change.....NOT!!!!!! if u give ppl all they want and u will have a wow fail allover again

 

You'll have the most successful MMO in history all over again?

 

Goodness!

[MikelGoff]

oh yeah gief AC change.....NOT!!!!!! if u give ppl all they want and u will have a wow fail allover again

 

Does WoW even let you pay for a class change?

Edited January 30, 2012 by MikelGoff

[Sabarok]

-Players lose exp. on death. That's MMOs.

-Players drop items on death. That's MMOs.

-Enchanting something and failing means the item is destroyed. That's MMOs.

-Being killed in PvP means the enemy gets to loot your corpse. That's MMOs.

-If you want to kill that rare mob, you need to camp it for 3 days straight. That's MMOs.

 

Moving away from the aforementioned design pitfalls is what made WoW the amazing success it is today. SWTOR could stand to take a page from that book.

 

And yet, WoW never allowed class changes. If players only ever leveled 1 character, they were forever stuck with their class. Just because there's a change, it doesn't automatically make it a good change. It only takes 1 bad change to destroy a MMO. Final Fantasy XI has done the whole "you can use any class they want", but they still require you to relevel each class individually.

 

You've said yourself that WoW is facing declining numbers. Convince them that class changes will help save their subs. If WoW pulls it off successfully, other MMOs will follow.

 

If I go to a trade show showcasing SWTOR and I try out the other AC spec, have I gotten a free class from it?

 

Trying is different than owning. If all you got was a free try, like the thread you started, that's fine. Trade shows don't let you take that character home to keep.

 

If I go to a restaurant and order the "super burger" from the menu, and it turns out to be a burger with nails in it, I shouldn't have to pay for the burger AGAIN when I send the nail burger back to get one without nails.

 

Bad analogy. It's more like going to a restaurant to order a hamburger and then eating half of it, and realizing you'd rather have the chicken. When the restaurant owner refuses to give it to you for free, you start arguing with the other customers that it should be OK to return the half-eaten food you ordered for the food you really want. It's not "free" since you're giving back the hamburger and replacing it with the chicken. Most of the other customers will tell you to be quiet and eat what you ordered. A few others will also want free food, so they'll cheer you on.

 

Restaurants also have the flexibility to resolve such issues on a case by case basis better than an MMO can. By your analogy, a Bioware GM should be free to access your account and give YOU an AC change because you complained loudly enough for it. That's still not the same as setting policy across the restaurant where every customer is allowed to return half-eaten food and trade it in for something else, which is where this analogy leads back into the MMO. It's really messy trying to make analogies across industries.

 

If you'd rather see players leave the game than not adhere to your dogmatic nonsense principles, you're placing your own hangups over the health of the game.

 

Dogmatic nonsense principles? You must be new to MMOs if you think opposing class changes is dogmatic nonsense principles. And yes, I'd rather see players leave the game than to destroy what is already here. SWTOR is not going to cater to 100% of the population. The one placing their own hangups over the health of the game is yourself.

 

No class change is the status quo. The onus is on you to prove that such a drastic change is in the overall good health in the game. Based on the thread of 80% opposed, popularity is not in your favour. Precedence in other MMOs also works against you. Lack of a same-level class change has been present in every successful MMO. There is nothing dogmatic about facts. The dogma lies in your belief, based on personal experience, that AC resets would be good for everyone.

 

As you have demonstrated yourself quite clearly in your new thread, there is at least 1 more acceptable solution to your problem.

[SerikFox]

I vote no. No ac respec.