In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Akash]

Blotter said:

 

"What they are implementing will fully allow this. It jsut won't allow YOU to look at another person's data and "do it for them" by telling them "you're doing it wrong, baddy." You will be able to do it for yourself and for anyone who wishes to share their data with you, so there's no issue other than the fact that you won't be able to "spy" on a nother person's performance without their permission and then judge them for it.

 

They're letting us put target dummies on our ships. Not 100% clear whether it's a perk earned with legacy or just hey, here, have some target dummies.

 

Again, why anyone is pretending that this system won't provide he data is ridiculous. You will have the quantitative data. Guilds will share their quantitative data within the guild. Some may even compile data across guilds to look at certain issues. Heck, the community on a particular server might even compile their data to look at certain issues, but nobody will be obliged to share their personal data that doesn't want to, which protects them from what we all know happens when people can look at other peoples' data without permission. Don't give me that "If you've been around MMO's long at all" nonsense...I have...and I've seen all the behavior this system will help prevent, even if it doesn't prevent it completely. "So and so won't share their data, put him on the black list" will become the new "that dude's dps stinks, put him on the black list," mark my words. In the end though, pretending you won't have the data from people wiling to share is a lie and a farce."

 

 

And the annoying way I had to copy and paste your above nonsense is a preview of the problem.

 

If you can't look at others' data in your group/raid real-time, then you've seriously crippled the process. Raid leaders need to be able to see how things are going and make adjustments as needed.

 

Running a progression guild is different from solo or pug play.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Akash

[Blotter]

Because they're trying to appease the people crying about how unfair it would be to get judged on their performance by the other people that are grouped with them and depend on them to hold up their end of the bargain.

 

Not really. If the group is failing repeatedly, you know something is wrong. I've yet to run a pug HM that utterly failed tho, and I've yet to see a wipe on a particular boss where we didn't know what went wrong from observing the fight. They're not catering to "baddies" who don't want to be judged...they're shutingg down jackholes who want to run aruond judging. There's a difference.

 

But the moment that detailed combat logs hit, there will be a parser created for it, and it makes no difference, really. The people who use metrics as a tool for analyzing their own performance and that of others in their groups will still use them. And the people that stroke their epeen over their uber-pwsome-leet-dps will still be idiots that no sane guild leader would allow in a raid.

 

Agreed haha.

 

Personally, I rather like the idea of people like that outing themselves. It lets me steer clear of them.

 

There's some vailidity to that point too lol. Altho, I think preventing it from even getting to that point is what BW is trying to do for the good of the community.

 

 

.....

[ferroz]

I don't care if they have a full log or not so I listened to with an open mind. If they want to "eliminate judging" which they stated they did, it makes no sense to release a full downloadable log.

Actually, they didn't say "eliminate judging" ... at least in any of the quotes linked so far. Did they say that somewhere else?

 

We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you.

 

So, if they want to allow people to take advantage of X, but don't want people to be able to do Y, and have no statement that says that X trumps or Y or vice versa, it still makes plenty of sense for them to release a full downloadable log

 

X= the ability to use a log to figure out what is being done wrong (note, they don't say by who here)

Y= go out and judge you.

 

It's quote possible that they will do a full combat log to give the most advantage to X, while limiting how much can be done via the in game log to minimize Y as a computerize; or that they'll decide that Y trumps X and that you'll only see personal data in both cases; or that they'll decide that X trumps Y and that you'll be able to see everyone in your group's data in both cases.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ferroz

[Gibevad]

Can ACT be made to work with SWTOR?

[Vydor_HC]

Can ACT be made to work with SWTOR?

 

I do not see why not.

[Drewser]

Actually, they didn't say "eliminate judging" at least in any of the quotes linked so far.

 

 

"But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you."

 

What does that mean to you?

 

Taken with Georg's original quote in this thread:

 

Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

 

All the quotes/statement focus on YOUR combat data.

 

Could they add a full log, yes. Is it likely based on everything thay have stated so far, no.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Drewser

[cipher_nemo]

I don't know why people are so worried about being "judged" by others if combat logs shows everyone in your group. After all, us healers are already "judged" by the huge green numbers floating over people's heads. Edited March 6, 2012 by cipher_nemo

[Matte_Black]

If you can't look at others' data in your group/raid real-time, then you've seriously crippled the process. Raid leaders need to be able to see how things are going and make adjustments as needed.

 

Running a progression guild is different from solo or pug play.

 

I won't say whether your opinion is right or wrong but, the devs commenting at the summit defintely seemed to be against realtime assessment of other players. They are putting indivdual player privacy over the ability to assess groupmates live without consent. They commented that they liked parsers as a personal feedback tool but did not want to enable players a tool with which to judge others. For what it is worth, the majority of the room seemed to agree with them, at least through the livestream.

 

I would not expect what you want to be officially supported by the game for a long time.

[Volksworgen]

Good no recount for group. And you know personal DPS. Now everyone wins. No loud mouth in raid shouting everyone's number's and if you ask me mine. I'll lie.

 

It's not hard to detect a bad player in 8/16 men operations. There are noob 'patterns' you will notice if you have played MMOs long enough. So don't assume that making logs personal will save you from getting booted or being stamped as a noob player. It's funny actually, usually the noobs/baddies complain about implementation of DPS meters because they know they will get caught. I personally, have no issue with DPS meters because I know I will be up there

[Blotter]

Blotter said:

 

"What they are implementing will fully allow this. It jsut won't allow YOU to look at another person's data and "do it for them" by telling them "you're doing it wrong, baddy." You will be able to do it for yourself and for anyone who wishes to share their data with you, so there's no issue other than the fact that you won't be able to "spy" on a nother person's performance without their permission and then judge them for it.

 

They're letting us put target dummies on our ships. Not 100% clear whether it's a perk earned with legacy or just hey, here, have some target dummies.

 

Again, why anyone is pretending that this system won't provide he data is ridiculous. You will have the quantitative data. Guilds will share their quantitative data within the guild. Some may even compile data across guilds to look at certain issues. Heck, the community on a particular server might even compile their data to look at certain issues, but nobody will be obliged to share their personal data that doesn't want to, which protects them from what we all know happens when people can look at other peoples' data without permission. Don't give me that "If you've been around MMO's long at all" nonsense...I have...and I've seen all the behavior this system will help prevent, even if it doesn't prevent it completely. "So and so won't share their data, put him on the black list" will become the new "that dude's dps stinks, put him on the black list," mark my words. In the end though, pretending you won't have the data from people wiling to share is a lie and a farce."

 

 

And the annoying way I had to copy and paste your above nonsense is a preview of the problem.

 

If you can't look at others' data in your group/raid real-time, then you've seriously crippled the process. Raid leaders need to be able to see how things are going and make adjustments as needed.

 

Running a progression guild is different from solo or pug play.

 

Been there, done that and doing it now. Given the myriad posts whining that the content is too easy in the first place, and my experience has been that it is somewhat toned down from other games, pretending that a guild trying to progress is horribly gimped by the lack of a real time combat log parser is silly. Plain. Old. Silly.

 

Moreover, the stupid things frequently become a source of problems themselves, what with tunnel-visioned epeen strokers failing to CC mobs on time or toss out a random heal here and there. Not a single person in these 90+ pages has given a valid example of where, in this particular game as it exists right now, it has been absolutely necessary to have a real time combat log for figuring out why you wiped. It's abundantly clear from the observable facts on your screen during a fight what went wrong in this game and if it was a matter of dps failing to be enough, you can tell, and 9+ times out of 10 it's not because someone wasn't outputting enough while still alive, but because they croaked doing something like falling off the platform and the battle rez was, unfortunately, on CD at the time.

 

If things change drastically and they introduce raids that are far far more difficult, you might gain some traction with eamples of where it was super necessary for a real time log to have been available, but as it standsd now, it's just huff-n-puff.

[Vydor_HC]

"But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you."

 

What does that mean to you?

 

To me, that statement is just an acknowledgment of the ongoing debate concerning this issue. Letting the anti log people know that the developers understand where they are coming from. I don't know if it has any literal meaning inside the game though.

[Cbrinegar]

Blotter said:

 

"What they are implementing will fully allow this. It jsut won't allow YOU to look at another person's data and "do it for them" by telling them "you're doing it wrong, baddy." You will be able to do it for yourself and for anyone who wishes to share their data with you, so there's no issue other than the fact that you won't be able to "spy" on a nother person's performance without their permission and then judge them for it.

 

They're letting us put target dummies on our ships. Not 100% clear whether it's a perk earned with legacy or just hey, here, have some target dummies.

 

Again, why anyone is pretending that this system won't provide he data is ridiculous. You will have the quantitative data. Guilds will share their quantitative data within the guild. Some may even compile data across guilds to look at certain issues. Heck, the community on a particular server might even compile their data to look at certain issues, but nobody will be obliged to share their personal data that doesn't want to, which protects them from what we all know happens when people can look at other peoples' data without permission. Don't give me that "If you've been around MMO's long at all" nonsense...I have...and I've seen all the behavior this system will help prevent, even if it doesn't prevent it completely. "So and so won't share their data, put him on the black list" will become the new "that dude's dps stinks, put him on the black list," mark my words. In the end though, pretending you won't have the data from people wiling to share is a lie and a farce."

 

 

And the annoying way I had to copy and paste your above nonsense is a preview of the problem.

 

If you can't look at others' data in your group/raid real-time, then you've seriously crippled the process. Raid leaders need to be able to see how things are going and make adjustments as needed.

 

Running a progression guild is different from solo or pug play.

 

Nonsense, what your saying is for progression guilds having dps logs is needed, thats utter nonsense...I was in a top tier progression guild on EQ, and we didnt use logs in any way...We had no trouble with content, if we didnt succeed the first time we made some minor changes based on how the event transpired....guilds can progress without logs, they just need to know the game and its mechanics better, which imho is greater then relying on any logs ANY day.

[Kthx]

How can I tell if someone is doing bad without them?

 

It is precisely because of this attitude that there is a backlash against meters, both from devs and players.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Kthx

[Drewser]

I don't know why people are so worried about being "judged" by others if combat logs shows everyone in your group. After all, us healers are already "judged" by the huge green numbers floating over people's heads.

 

I am not worried at all but it seems like the developers are as well as a portion of players that played the W... game are.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Drewser

[Kourage]

Huh? This has nothing to do with sharing an individual's combat log but carry on with your silly posts.

 

 

 

 

What it has to do with, is what I quoted you saying

 

Originally Posted by Drewser

The panel yesterday. They made the point that want players to be able to decide whether to share their information or not.

 

If the decision to share is available, as you alluded to, then you will likely be required to share it to remain in the Ops group.

 

 

You and your silly posts....

Edited March 6, 2012 by Kourage

[Quraswren]

I don't know why people are so worried about being "judged" by others if combat logs shows everyone in your group. After all, us healers are already "judged" by the huge green numbers floating over people's heads.

 

I think it boils down to, If your not in a raid group it's none of your business and PUG's really don't count.

 

You're already taking a risk by it being a PUG in the first place.

 

And most people know, there has been more drama with a combat log than there has ever been before them.

 

Keeping the data at in individuals choice is a much better concept than all across the board. Cause there are times it never needs to come into play.

 

End game raiders aren't going to care and will gladly upload there logs. The rest of the time combat logs are usually used to just stir up drama and for no other reason than to make one person feel better about themselves over someone else.

 

This is a good way to handle it. If you need the logs have your raiders upload them. Pretty simple. Otherwise you don't need to know.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Quraswren

[dmanlong]

I am not worried at all but it seems like the developers are as well as a portion of players that played the W... game.

 

I wouldn't hire a developer if he/she did not play WoW at some point. It is the pinnacle of MMO's. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a product that does a lot of things right and improving upon it and creating your own unique game.

[Akash]

Folks are worried about being judged because they're afraid they will be denied content due to poor performance.

 

I skipped WoW. I didn't like the community. What I did play, and still do, is Rift (and a load of other games going back to the late 1990's and EQ1).

 

Rift's raid mechanics can be very unforgiving. Bosses have hard enrage timers, adds have hard enrage timers. The game takes a great amount of coordination. It isn't all about putting up numbers, but putting up numbers tends to be a prerequisite.

 

Without real-time data, raid leaders wouldn't be able to make the necessary adjustments.

 

Without veterans being able to see real-time data and tutor new 50's at the practice range, gamewide progression would be slowed and a sense of community would be lost.

 

It is sad to see so many people have had negative experiences with WoW, and haven't seen the good and positive things that can come from combat parsers as illustrated with Rift.

 

Maybe its a mainly a difference in community.

[Snoodmaster]

Been there, done that and doing it now. Given the myriad posts whining that the content is too easy in the first place, and my experience has been that it is somewhat toned down from other games, pretending that a guild trying to progress is horribly gimped by the lack of a real time combat log parser is silly. Plain. Old. Silly.

 

Moreover, the stupid things frequently become a source of problems themselves, what with tunnel-visioned epeen strokers failing to CC mobs on time or toss out a random heal here and there. Not a single person in these 90+ pages has given a valid example of where, in this particular game as it exists right now, it has been absolutely necessary to have a real time combat log for figuring out why you wiped. It's abundantly clear from the observable facts on your screen during a fight what went wrong in this game and if it was a matter of dps failing to be enough, you can tell, and 9+ times out of 10 it's not because someone wasn't outputting enough while still alive, but because they croaked doing something like falling off the platform and the battle rez was, unfortunately, on CD at the time.

 

If things change drastically and they introduce raids that are far far more difficult, you might gain some traction with eamples of where it was super necessary for a real time log to have been available, but as it standsd now, it's just huff-n-puff.

 

Ok, here's a real-life example. My guild was trying HM Soa with a couple pugs on sunday night. We got him to phase 3 every time, but just didn't have the dps to get him down before he enraged and people started dying. It sure would have been nice to know which of the dps was failing right then and there so we didn't waste an hour or more trying with the same group. Because not only can you tell who is failing, you can also tell them to pick up the slack and do it publicly so (1) they can't hide, (2) everyone in the guild knows that they are all accountable, and (3) there are no accusations of favoritism.

 

It would also have been nice to see who was actually shooting mindtraps after the fact. Because nobody would admit to it, but clearly some people weren't.

[Blotter]

Nonsense, what your saying is for progression guilds having dps logs is needed, thats utter nonsense...I was in a top tier progression guild on EQ, and we didnt use logs in any way...We had no trouble with content, if we didnt succeed the first time we made some minor changes based on how the event transpired....guilds can progress without logs, they just need to know the game and its mechanics better, which imho is greater then relying on any logs ANY day.

 

This^. People just want the crutch so they don't have to say "ok, let's change such and such" and then find out that the new way they're trying it doesn't work either. Peolpe don't have the patience to die or wipe repeatedly in order to learn by trial and error, which is really what games are about and what proves you're good if you don't have to do it as much as another person/guild...they just want it all handed to them. Well, BW is handing it to them with shareable log data or after your night of raiding, so the continuing complaints make no sense. Again, 9+ times out of 10, if Dopey isn't doing enough dps, you can ususally tell, quickly, without needing to look past the 4th wall into the game's actual underlying mechanics, why that is the case.

[Drewser]

I wouldn't hire a developer if he/she did not play WoW at some point. It is the pinnacle of MMO's. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a product that does a lot of things right and improving upon it and creating your own unique game.

 

I said nothing derogatory about WoW. Just that people who played it seem to comment a lot about the community changes when certain add-ons were created.

 

I played when the level cap was 60, got bored with it and moved on. I have nothing against people that enjoyed it and still do to this day.

[Akash]

Nonsense, what your saying is for progression guilds having dps logs is needed, thats utter nonsense...I was in a top tier progression guild on EQ, and we didnt use logs in any way...We had no trouble with content, if we didnt succeed the first time we made some minor changes based on how the event transpired....guilds can progress without logs, they just need to know the game and its mechanics better, which imho is greater then relying on any logs ANY day.

 

Yeah, I played EQ as well. A_long_time_ago. Raid mechanics have evolved since then.

[Cbrinegar]

I wouldn't hire a developer if he/she did not play WoW at some point. It is the pinnacle of todays generation that feel a sense of instant gratification and entitlement MMO's. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a product that does a lot of things right and improving upon it and creating your own unique game.

 

Edited for correctness, WOW - 7 years and counting.. EQ1 - 13 and still counting..

[dmanlong]

I said nothing derogatory about WoW. Just that people who played it seem to comment a lot about the community changes when certain add-ons were created.

 

I played when the level cap was 60, got bored with it and moved on. I have nothing against people that enjoyed it and still do to this day.

 

I am not saying you said anything derogatory about it. I am simply stating that If I were running a company that developed MMO's, I would not hire developers that have not at least spent some time playing the most successful MMO.

[Blotter]

Ok, here's a real-life example. My guild was trying HM Soa with a couple pugs on sunday night. We got him to phase 3 every time, but just didn't have the dps to get him down before he enraged and people started dying. It sure would have been nice to know which of the dps was failing right then and there so we didn't waste an hour or more trying with the same group. Because not only can you tell who is failing, you can also tell them to pick up the slack and do it publicly so (1) they can't hide, (2) everyone in the guild knows that they are all accountable, and (3) there are no accusations of favoritism.

 

It would also have been nice to see who was actually shooting mindtraps after the fact. Because nobody would admit to it, but clearly some people weren't.

 

I understand your point, but to be honest, saying you went in there to do HM Soa with pugs really undermines the example. We did that the other night with a couple pugs and not a single person complained that it took 5 tries to finally get the dps right and that we were up until 6am. FUnny thing is, it all came together when someone finally said "ok, last try, I'm pooped and need sleep." Moreover, nobody got "called out" or yelled at or told they were a slacker or various other turdbrained nonsense that takes place when someone can look at a combat log and use it to "prove" that someone is a "baddy" or whatever. We muddled through and finally succeeded, but if we didn't, nobody was going away upset or insulted or angry with each other because soeone brought out "proof" that they were bad and caused arguing and insulting behavior. What's more, we bourght pugs, so we weren't going to be suprised if something went wrong. We played it for fun...SHOCKING, I know. If you can't take the trial and error repetition of playing a game like this and want to not have to do things repeatedly in order to learn to get it right, then play Scrabble. That is how a game like this should be as opposed to a Massive Mutliplayer Spreadsheet Wankfest.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter