You blew it BioWare

[EternalFinality]

If you read what I said I was praising BioWare because it's easy and quick to gain gear here. I am advocating for it to be easy. The quoted poster thinks it's hard and I'm disagreeing, saying Bioware did a good job. Reading comprehension? Do I need to go back and bold my last sentence for you???

 

Uh huh. While in the same breath suggesting that "MMOs aren't for you" if you dislike how things are set up.

Edited January 12, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Mumnoch]

It requires time, effort, and luck to get PVP gear.

It requires time, effort, and luck to get PVE gear.

 

IMO the best PVP gear should = the best PVE gear.

 

MMO's that intergrate PVP into PVE worlds that then give the PVPers a advantage over the PVEers never made much sense to me.

[MiNDSPiKe]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

How can BW possibly fix the mess they created going forward? I have no idea. They could start by scrapping pvp stats but that would mean BW would have to admit they were wrong and I don't see that happening.

 

Flame all you like, but I play this game and read the boards from time to time. I come across more people who agree with me on this one than those who don't.

 

Give this guy a medal, ive seen some bad MMO pvp, but this is the biggest train wreck of them all thats 4 sure

[Tariiel]

Everyone complains about the gap between 10% expertise players vs no expertise players, I Agree to some part, but what people fails to see with this 'pve stat' is that the opposite is also true.

 

I know a lot of players who plays mainly pvp and do some PVE too, those people would now suffer the gap for not having the 'pve stat'.

 

The most certain decision for me is to take away expertise, do not implement the 'pve stat' and give comparable rewards from both pve and pvp, and let the player chose where he gets his gear from.

 

Who the **** cares if this guy is doing pvp so he can do pve better? or vice-versa?

[Joskara]

Right so PvPers don't enjoy rewards and a sense of progression?

 

Ok, lets make it a ranking then. If you are good you can move on too higher ranks but only fight people on similar rank.

 

Right now you just grind, which means get destroyed, and then you get good gear and destroy other new pvpers.

 

I never liked arena in that other game, but its a good concept... Elaborate that to something more than team deathmatch. Huttball can work.

[zeroburrito]

Then what about PvE gear from Raids.How will those players not faceroll skilled PvP players just because they got better gear, same thing.

 

you normalize gear for pvp like gw2 is doing.

[Klajo]

There should not be any gear rewards. Gear should all be crafted.The pve and pvp content should all be enjoyable and fun. If they could provide enjoyable content in both aspects this would work great. I am sick of treating mmos like a second job.

 

As it works now you have to spend many days doing content to get all the gear you need and then what? Do it all over again. That's not fun in my eyes. These companies are greedy and only care enough to keep taking your money. People need to stop feeding them for the same ideas redone.

 

I lost all respect for Bioware with this game.

 

Rewarding dominance for time spent is the system we have, but I agree that there could be better ways to do it when players are competing with each other.

 

As an example. I like playing Call of Duty. That game asks nothing of me really. I don't have to spend days grinding awesome gear.

I can login and kill you dead as easily as you can kill me. As long as I am skilled enough to do it.

The rewards are the thrill of the fight and trying to build good kill/death ratio's etc.

You don't need gear in that kind of system to have fun.

And there is no reason why a game like WoW/Swtor etc. couldn't find a successful adaptation of that concept to put into their PvP without harming the PvE game.

 

my opinion

[Midasear]

As it is now it is impossible to enjoy the game as a casual player in PvP.

 

Impossible for you maybe. Not for everyone.

 

I do not have lots of time to play weeknights. Wife/kids/school/walking the dog, etc...keep me pretty busy. I really only have enough time to log in and do space & PVP dailies.

 

After farming a few fleet commendations, I almost always just solo queue until I get into a winning match, and it usually takes several tries. Unlike when I do pre-mades with friends on the weekends, I experiencing losing a lot, five days a week.

 

But its still fun. Its often the highlight of my day. I make the filthy Imperials work for every kill in Huttball, for every door cap in Voidstar, for every shield point on Alderaan. Often they don't have to work too hard, but being totally outclassed a lot of the time is just part of random pvp-PUGing. After a loss becomes certain, I try new strategies, farm medals, try to get medals I've not yet been able to get, or just call the other team names in /general while waiting for the force field in the recovery area to drop.

 

And every once in a while (roughly once a week so far), I'm part of a OP loaded down with characters 7 characters from 12-35, facing off against a guild premade and a couple of random L50s with lightsabers, and we _beat_ them. And that's more fun than anything that could happen in perfectly "balanced" PVP.

 

I know some people only have fun when they are winning, or at least really close. But honestly, that says more about them than it does about any game.

[Tilure]

I ranted about this same thing in RIFT.

 

specific end game PvE or PvP stats make no sense.

 

From a pvp perspective it puts new pvpers at such a disadvantage that they are likely to avoid pvp all together, and the only reason to include it is to provide your cutting edge pvp grinders to retain an advantage over your cutting edge PvE grinders.

 

If any of you played rift you'll recall when they introduced the rank 6(or was it 8 i forget) gear that created a situation where the optimal gearing path for pve included the rank 6 non-hit pieces. Of course this put the PvE side all in a fuss because they said, "we don't want to have to attain rank 6 pvp", as I was an avid pvper and only raided because the PvE weapons were better for PvP then the PvP weapons, I took a lot of **** from my guild because I didn't need to do GSB or ROS as I already had all the hit i needed.

 

It utterly confused me... I thought pve was us, working as a team to complete the content and enjoy it. How does me, already being geared, and not needing to roll (thus allowing other players access to the gear) in anyway negatively effect pve?

 

In the same sense, why would I care if you only pve'd but could attain EQUAL gear.

 

I don't

 

The only problem comes when short sighted content planners make one side of gear better.

It really is as simple as just making the gear IDENTICAL. BW has a unique opportunity to do this, by simple removing any non modded gear from end game. Provide all players access to all the "looks", ie put armor type on the armor mod rather then the gear piece itself. Then in both pve and pvp make it so that you buy and earn MODS not the actual armor shells.

 

Armor could then have light/dark/social requirements as they have now. Then actual art/animation development around gear is completely independent of its stats.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Tilure

[LordSoulgrinder]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

How can BW possibly fix the mess they created going forward? I have no idea. They could start by scrapping pvp stats but that would mean BW would have to admit they were wrong and I don't see that happening.

 

Flame all you like, but I play this game and read the boards from time to time. I come across more people who agree with me on this one than those who don't.

 

PVP stat is a must. Should everyone get the same exact gear in PVE? NO, it just doesn't make any sense. AT ALL. You are wrong. Why would you do anything in any MMO if everybody was the exact same and wore all of the same gear?

[Malice_Nihilim]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

How can BW possibly fix the mess they created going forward? I have no idea. They could start by scrapping pvp stats but that would mean BW would have to admit they were wrong and I don't see that happening.

 

Flame all you like, but I play this game and read the boards from time to time. I come across more people who agree with me on this one than those who don't.

 

Yup, and I have some some other thoughts as well on this subject. I'm pretty busy at work so not much chance to write it today, but keep an eye open for my thread this evening about how to fix these problems and how we can move forward to making SWTOR a better game and not something that we all should abandon, as all games of this ilk are works in progress, it just depends on how BW will handle these issues in the up coming months, is if people will stick it out.

[tarjan]

Here is how u make pvp

 

1: Make best gear for pvp worthless and easy to obtain for anything else then pvp.

2: Make players able to loot other players they kill in pvp.

3: Make objectives in game to fight over that gives bonuses to controller side as in exp bonus for holder

 

4:The pvp gear that players need can only be obtained from crafters (keeping economy going)

5:Make pvp titles and unlockable gear looks for players that rank up in pvp (only cosmetic)

 

quite simple really...

[AidenPryde]

Most of you people supporting the Expertise stat are probably noobs who haven't played a proper PvP game like DaOC or Shadowbane.

 

Most of you started in WoW more than likely.

 

Expertise is stupid for several reasons.

 

Namely that PvP is supposed to be about your skill as an individual, not how much +10% Dmg, +10% Healing, +10% Def you have.

 

So all of you who think that Expertise is great, really are closer to raiders. You cannot legitimately call yourselves PvPers.

 

Real skill involves something like going into a BF:BC2 match and completely dominating with the M1 Garand. Real skill involves going into a SWTOR WZ and knowing when to CC, when to hit your most damaging attack, when to build up Rage.

 

Real skill, and real PvP is NOT having gear that allows you to negate 50% of other people's damage because your gear gives you a 10% buff to everything you do.

 

So stop calling yourselves PvPers, because you aren't.

 

On another note DaOC and to a lesser extent WaR both demonstrated that PvP and PvE gear could be balanced and take the same amount of time to gain. There is a route out of this mess, and it is up to Bioware to find the path.

 

Otherwise I guarantee you this. These forums will erupt into flame once the FULL Battlemaster 50s start queuing up with other 50s in their leveling gear.

[Beergoogles]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

How can BW possibly fix the mess they created going forward? I have no idea. They could start by scrapping pvp stats but that would mean BW would have to admit they were wrong and I don't see that happening.

 

Flame all you like, but I play this game and read the boards from time to time. I come across more people who agree with me on this one than those who don't.

 

Easy fix, don't pvp......why cry about something you don't have to take part in. It's one aspect of this game, witch is basically brand new ( not even a month live). Everyone enjoys different things in different ways. Pvp must not be for you

[Tusc]

I'd like to see more companies try to make a game where it wasn't always about chasing the next piece of gear. Make the game fun enough that if you never got a new piece of gear that would be fine. Make the GAMEPLAY fun.

 

Planetside did it pretty well, and I loved that game. But fps type games aren't everyone's cup of tea.

 

Shadowbane came so close in so many areas, and screwed the pooch in a few important ones.

 

Since WoW, nobody even tries anymore. They just reskin it and call it revolutionary.

[Didawan]

PVP STATS are FINE.

 

People need a reason to grind, point being to get PVP GEAR WITH PVP STATS.

 

 

You want a solution for WZ?

 

Make Brackets taking into consideration Level + gear score.

[DarthOvertone]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

What you are saying is true...from a certain point of view.

 

I think your angle is too sandbox PvP-centric. SWTOR is an MMO. Of course there are stats. And while you may be a hardcore PvPer, as an MMO there is a level of progression built into it. Yes you are right. PvP is supposed to be about skill. But as an MMO, with an element of progression, acquiring gear or other things to improve stats for PvP is par for the course. An MMO simply is not a sandbox PvP game.

 

This stands true pretty much for all MMOs that are even more PvP centered than SWTOR. Darkfall, and even Aion, come to mind. Those are both PvP MMOs where you still have a layer of progression if you want to compete. Don't tell me those aren't PvP games because they aren't sandboxes. GW, or the coming GW2, seem to be more in line with what you want, but those aren't MMOs.

 

So it seems to me that you want sandbox PvP. However, you chose the wrong medium for that style. Another game would satisfy you more.

 

As far as balance is concerned, aside from a core mitigation problem for some tanking and range/melee dps ACs, the classes and game are pretty well balanced especially for a launch. WZs, by design, are imbalanced with inherent level differences and the Bolster buff. So if you are basing any arguments about balance on WZs, you are barking up the wrong tree. Try some OPvP to get a better idea of how well classes are balanced.

[Fardarter]

I didnt say dont offer gear

I said lose expertise.

There is no reason why pvp gear cant be on par with pve gear.

[Poor_Grammar]

There are a few classes that can already dominate you in a matter of seconds if their cooldowns are up. Removing expertise would severely gimp light armor wearing classes at end game pvp.

[AidenPryde]

There are a few classes that can already dominate you in a matter of seconds if their cooldowns are up. Removing expertise would severely gimp light armor wearing classes at end game pvp.

 

Give their gear more endurance? Or add another damage mitigating CD to the class?

 

There are solutions here without having Expertise in the game.

[EternalFinality]

I'd like to see more companies try to make a game where it wasn't always about chasing the next piece of gear. Make the game fun enough that if you never got a new piece of gear that would be fine. Make the GAMEPLAY fun.

 

I played Dota for a good 7 years. It's a massively multiplayer RPG, but every game you start off equal to other people. And most every game was fun because the gameplay was fun.

 

Coincidentally, the community was what made it not fun, just as the community of "hardcore" PvPers and PvEers seem to be doing their best in every MMO to ruin it for everyone else.

 

What would warzones be like if you all started off equal (or with just vanity gear to customize your appearance) but got money for killing other players or completing objectives, then used that money to buy gear during the match? That sounds a hell of a lot more fun that what we have now. Some developer should get on that.

[Tyranoc]

I can't believer the cry babies who play these games. You get your stats buffed, but thats not enough. You want brackets to stop you from being destroyed by 50's because you suck at playing. And now people talk about brackets for people who have gear?

 

You people are pathetic.

 

I agree with brackets. Lvl 1- 10; 11 - 20; 21-30, 31-40 41-50

Thats more than fine. But bracketing for gear as well? Basically you are just further segregating people because YOU want to be on eof the best. But because you can't compete, or just suck at playing you try to get rid of anyone who is better than you so thta you have some sort of fighting chance.

 

You people are sad.

[AidenPryde]

I can't believer the cry babies who play these games. You get your stats buffed, but thats not enough. You want brackets to stop you from being destroyed by 50's because you suck at playing. And now people talk about brackets for people who have gear?

 

You people are pathetic.

 

I agree with brackets. Lvl 1- 10; 11 - 20; 21-30, 31-40 41-50

Thats more than fine. But bracketing for gear as well? Basically you are just further segregating people because YOU want to be on eof the best. But because you can't compete, or just suck at playing you try to get rid of anyone who is better than you so thta you have some sort of fighting chance.

 

You people are sad.

 

I would like to see you kill a full Champion geared 50 without your PvP gear on.

 

Youtube video please.

[Kryzen]

Not going to read all the pages on this to see if its been said...

 

pvp stat = crap

 

pvp skills like in DAOC = much better idea

 

just my 2cents

[Grafikk]

Expertise is crap ... it's barely effective at all. I think even at 450 expertise it's maybe 9% (correct me if wrong please)? Hardly a game breaker.