You blew it BioWare

[EternalFinality]

Expertise is crap ... it's barely effective at all. I think even at 450 expertise it's maybe 9% (correct me if wrong please)? Hardly a game breaker.

 

It's 9% doubled. You deal 9% more. You take 9% less. That's huge.

Edited January 12, 2012 by EternalFinality

[CupieFoxtail]

pvp skills like in DAOC = much better idea

 

If I wanted a moveset that wasn't static, I would play guild wars

I don't

[MorgonKara]

Another thing broken about a PvP stat is it basically doubles the gear penalty.

 

If I'm a fresh 50, and I fight someone with raid gear, they have a gear advantage - more HP, more damage, more armor, etc.

 

If I fight someone in PvP gear, not only do I have the same gear disadvantage (remember, PvP gear has raid gear-level stats on it in ADDITION to expertise!) but a massive expertise disadvantage.

 

I have no chance whatsoever.

 

Expertise only "works" at its stupid purpose of giving an advantage over raid gear when FIGHTING PEOPLE IN RAID GEAR. Fighting someone who has neither is just utter obliteration. Without the PvP stat you'd be at a major disadvantage, but at least you'd have a chance.

 

This is the critical flaw with a PvP stat.

 

I've got to say I agree with what you have been saying, for the most part, because I think it makes sense.

 

I seem to remember a while ago one of the devs saying that PvP stats were a small bonus, like 5%. Anyone that has played a Warzone sub lvl 50 vs. 50s with expertise knows that isn't the case. I don't know what % bonus the stat gives on the character sheet in a full set of PvP gear, but it plays like your attacking a Sherman tank with a stick while wearing a loincloth.

 

Maybe it gives 5% over raid gear but it ain't 5% over the bolster that's for sure.

Edited January 12, 2012 by MorgonKara

[MorgonKara]

I recently made a new toon, a Sorcerer, and I queued up for a Warzone when I got to the first PvP daily on the fleet at like ~lvl 12. The enemy team had several 50s and I can say with certainty that my toon had no hope for victory even if I was a skilled player. All my attacks were either resisted or barely did any damage and I was getting 1 or 2 shot every time I spawned. My teammates were actually finding places to hide to wait out the Warzone. I'm not really complaining because I know they are adding the expertise 50 bracket, it's more of an observation.

 

I think expertise is designed to give dedicated PvPers an edge over raiders in PvP at endgame. At this point it makes Warzones severely unbalanced so it's good they are adding the bracket. I'm going to wait until the bracket goes live to queue for Warzones with any sub lvl50 characters.

Edited January 12, 2012 by MorgonKara

[Jagliance]

I think hes more annoyed at the expertise stat which i can kinda understand but its the same in every game. Though a pve player in purples will get an extra stat instead of expertise so its not that big of a deal.

[MorgonKara]

You have to consider that Expertise is really only on endgame lvl 50 gear. You can get a few points from PvP weapons but basically any significant Expertise is endgame. Once they add the lvl 50 bracket to Warzones and more people are max level in general I don't think it will be as much of an issue TBH.

 

Maybe people running around in quest reward greens will be hurting, but let's face it, in this game anything below prototype or custom is subpar. (I'm not even sure why they have NPC vendors that sell stat-less or green gear because they are quite pointless.)

Edited January 12, 2012 by MorgonKara

[Razot]

Most of you people supporting the Expertise stat are probably noobs who haven't played a proper PvP game like DaOC or Shadowbane.

 

Most of you started in WoW more than likely.

 

Expertise is stupid for several reasons.

 

Namely that PvP is supposed to be about your skill as an individual, not how much +10% Dmg, +10% Healing, +10% Def you have.

 

So all of you who think that Expertise is great, really are closer to raiders. You cannot legitimately call yourselves PvPers.

 

Real skill involves something like going into a BF:BC2 match and completely dominating with the M1 Garand. Real skill involves going into a SWTOR WZ and knowing when to CC, when to hit your most damaging attack, when to build up Rage.

 

Real skill, and real PvP is NOT having gear that allows you to negate 50% of other people's damage because your gear gives you a 10% buff to everything you do.

 

So stop calling yourselves PvPers, because you aren't.

 

On another note DaOC and to a lesser extent WaR both demonstrated that PvP and PvE gear could be balanced and take the same amount of time to gain. There is a route out of this mess, and it is up to Bioware to find the path.

 

Otherwise I guarantee you this. These forums will erupt into flame once the FULL Battlemaster 50s start queuing up with other 50s in their leveling gear.

 

 

Truth!

 

Its a stupid stat for WoW kiddies..

 

This is what happens when instead of building your own game you just build one around demographics.

 

After a few big udates and new raids the PVP gear will have even more expertise then we will have cross server PVP cause only the first few waves of players still PVP. Then from same expertise kiddies we will see QQ about nobody to play with as the expertise is about 50% or higher.

[Tharrn]

Most of you people supporting the Expertise stat are probably noobs who haven't played a proper PvP game like DaOC or Shadowbane.

 

Most of you started in WoW more than likely.

 

Expertise is stupid for several reasons.

 

Namely that PvP is supposed to be about your skill as an individual, not how much +10% Dmg, +10% Healing, +10% Def you have.

 

So all of you who think that Expertise is great, really are closer to raiders. You cannot legitimately call yourselves PvPers.

 

Real skill involves something like going into a BF:BC2 match and completely dominating with the M1 Garand. Real skill involves going into a SWTOR WZ and knowing when to CC, when to hit your most damaging attack, when to build up Rage.

 

Real skill, and real PvP is NOT having gear that allows you to negate 50% of other people's damage because your gear gives you a 10% buff to everything you do.

 

So stop calling yourselves PvPers, because you aren't.

 

On another note DaOC and to a lesser extent WaR both demonstrated that PvP and PvE gear could be balanced and take the same amount of time to gain. There is a route out of this mess, and it is up to Bioware to find the path.

 

Otherwise I guarantee you this. These forums will erupt into flame once the FULL Battlemaster 50s start queuing up with other 50s in their leveling gear.

 

You, Sir, are... absolutely right. Can I have your babies???

[rufix]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

How can BW possibly fix the mess they created going forward? I have no idea. They could start by scrapping pvp stats but that would mean BW would have to admit they were wrong and I don't see that happening.

 

Flame all you like, but I play this game and read the boards from time to time. I come across more people who agree with me on this one than those who don't.

 

good post -remove expertise!!

[-Kazim-]

Its what we got and your right, BW is not going to go backwards... in all my MMO days I can only recall ONE developer that ever removed a stat they decided was a bad idea down the road. So I guess we live with it and play it out right.

 

I agree 100% it is a terrible stat that kills PvP in a game by attrition.

What I mean by that is simple.... The PvP pop will pretty much lock in over the next 6 months and slowly die off. Everyone that got in early (US) will slug away and get our gear... 4-6 months from now the first round of New and Improved Gear Sets will come along so Bio can keep us grinding and not wining about real balance, and PvP Content updates.

At this point.... new players will be looking at a massive difference between geared and ungeared.... they will play sure... in the 1-49 bracket... and they will say this is awsome. I am having tons of fun, I think I'm a PvPer... then they will hit 50 and unsub 3 days later after playing 50 or so warzones... and being utterly destroyed in every single match... and have people wining that there on their team with no gear ect.

 

Slowly people will leave the game as is natural... and the population drain will exceed the population input... and slowly PvP will die off... Bio will slow the rate of development. 6 months after that first big new shiney more PvP stated gear hits... No ones left but the small hardcore group. (I'll be here and so will many of my friends and we will spend more time wining on Vent about how dead PvP is... and how Bio sucks because we haven't seen new content in months...)

 

PvE Stats would have been the fix... too late now though.

 

I've seen exactly the same happened on another game.

[Qlimitus]

PVP will never be fair until everyone has PVP gear and stacks biochem adrenals.That is all.

[AidenPryde]

I think hes more annoyed at the expertise stat which i can kinda understand but its the same in every game. Though a pve player in purples will get an extra stat instead of expertise so its not that big of a deal.

 

Just an FYI. People on my server are downing HM Flashpoints and all but one boss in Eternity Vault with full PvP gear.

 

It's funny as hell how flawed gear progression in this game is.

 

Crafters can't even craft 56 rated purple mods/gear at the moment because most of them haven't been farming HM FPs and EV.

[Zherill]

As long as MMO's use stat based gear you will never have balance between older players and new ones. Dosn't matter if it's a "pvp stat" or if pvp gear is on par with raid gear. New players walking into MMO pvp will get stomped due to gear.

 

If you want perfect balance go play a FPS.

[Ashanor]

PvP stats are fine.

 

Perhaps a better way to go about it would be to make expertise more easily accessible to lower levels. For example, put expertise on the level 40 pvp gear or make Expertise mods that can be bought with warzone or mercenary commendations.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Umm, no. They are about to kick 50s out and have a 10-49 bracket and you want to give the 40s expertise? That would just be the same problem all over again.

[EternalFinality]

As long as MMO's use stat based gear you will never have balance between older players and new ones. Dosn't matter if it's a "pvp stat" or if pvp gear is on par with raid gear. New players walking into MMO pvp will get stomped due to gear.

 

If you want perfect balance go play a FPS.

 

I'll just quote myself.

 

Another thing broken about a PvP stat is it basically doubles the gear penalty.

 

If I'm a fresh 50, and I fight someone with raid gear, they have a gear advantage - more HP, more damage, more armor, etc.

 

If I fight someone in PvP gear, not only do I have the same gear disadvantage (remember, PvP gear has raid gear-level stats on it in ADDITION to expertise!) but a massive expertise disadvantage.

 

I have no chance whatsoever.

 

Expertise only "works" at its stupid purpose of giving an advantage over raid gear when FIGHTING PEOPLE IN RAID GEAR. Fighting someone who has neither is just utter obliteration. Without the PvP stat you'd be at a major disadvantage, but at least you'd have a chance.

 

This is the critical flaw with a PvP stat.

[Guaritorr]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

How can BW possibly fix the mess they created going forward? I have no idea. They could start by scrapping pvp stats but that would mean BW would have to admit they were wrong and I don't see that happening.

 

Flame all you like, but I play this game and read the boards from time to time. I come across more people who agree with me on this one than those who don't.

 

Whether or not pvp stats suck, or are a dumb idea etc. Most people play for some form of progression, and they keep playing because they can empirically see their character getting better over time. Higher stats, cool looking gear, etc. Taking away the higher stats thing kinda puts a halt on any progression one may feel in the pvp part of the game.

 

Not saying that it would ruin things, but I think many people enjoy seeing their character improve.

 

Edit: There is an obligatory and default "IMO" tag on all my posts.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Guaritorr

[Leiloni]

Uh huh. While in the same breath suggesting that "MMOs aren't for you" if you dislike how things are set up.

 

Here's what the poster said:

 

As it works now you have to spend many days doing content to get all the gear you need and then what? Do it all over again. That's not fun in my eyes.

 

This is the basis of MMO's. You play the content. You get rewards for it. You play the content some more. That's it. If you don't find that enjoyable than well, don't play the game. If he doesn't want to continue to play the game after he's gotten the gear then I don't know what to say. The genre is all about exactly that and I'm being honest when I say it's easier in SWTOR than in many other games. As in, if you don't enjoy the way it works here I doubt you'll enjoy many other MMO's.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Leiloni

[alement]

This is just about a gap in mmo generations..pre wow dudes who used to camp mobs for days..and wow dudes who were handed thier welfare epics with little to no work.. I turned 50 on 8th of jan valor rank 54 in 3 days thourgh the combonation of tokens and bag drop I have pvp gear except for 3 items pants,focus and earpiece is what im missing..I play 3 to 4 hours a night..it is stupid easy to get pvp gear in this game

 

Best post I've read on the PvP forums yet. These QQers don't even know what a gear grind is. They should be counting their blessings and gladly handing Bioware their $15. Comparing this game to games I've played in the past (even as recently as a month ago with Aion), well, there's no comparison.

[Dirtydurst]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

How can BW possibly fix the mess they created going forward? I have no idea. They could start by scrapping pvp stats but that would mean BW would have to admit they were wrong and I don't see that happening.

 

Flame all you like, but I play this game and read the boards from time to time. I come across more people who agree with me on this one than those who don't.

 

 

Obtaining gear is one of the best ways to show progression in an MMO. If you can't get over that fact than perhaps the genre isn't for you; but then again, in a FPS you're going to run into people that have guns/perks you don't have and you'll probably QQ all over again. This is a trend in gaming; the more you play the more physical rewards you get.

 

Furthermore, the point of the PvP stat is to ensure that the PvE carebears can't waltz into WZs with all their heroic raid loot and roll people. I thought this would be a better understood concept when MOST people that play this game at least spent some time in Azeroth.

[Dirtydurst]

Did a dude just say he's Valor Rank 54 and he's only put in 20 hours of PvP? I'd like to know how to do this because I'm apparently I'm doing it wrong. lol

[Leiloni]

Best post I've read on the PvP forums yet. These QQers don't even know what a gear grind is. They should be counting their blessings and gladly handing Bioware their $15. Comparing this game to games I've played in the past (even as recently as a month ago with Aion), well, there's no comparison.

 

I agree. I played Aion for over two years and after that, this game is tons of fun. People need to either get perspective or stop PvPing if they don't enjoy it. The game has a lot more to offer than PvP.

[Dirtydurst]

I agree. I played Aion for over two years and after that, this game is tons of fun. People need to either get perspective or stop PvPing if they don't enjoy it. The game has a lot more to offer than PvP.

 

Aion was terrible, I'm sure any MMO would be refreshing after that experience.

[Healin]

This reminds me on the Story of the Dragonslayer and the Peasant.

 

Peasant: Its so unfair, we´re on the same age, i´m human, and u r human, only difference is that you got this shinign, magical, legendary, singing, speaking, dancing, glowing Sword of the Gods, and an armor made of the scales of 100 dragons and i only got this dirty shirt and my leather pants... WHY ARE U ALLOWED TO SLAY DRAGONS SO EASY, while i can not... NOT FAIR! I´m gonna pray to the lord right now, and tell him strip of your gear, so we´re equal again, without me doing anything else than praying!

 

 

Yea.. same story.. 'nuff said!

[Teslamatic]

I´d like to add that scenario set up stresses gear advantage even more. It´s a routine of respawn, rush to an obvious place of combat, kill, die, repeat. There is not even a hint of strategy needed (I am not counting "mind the ball" or "look, they´re taking our turret"). This all multiplies, when you have a group of geared people that need to be only at one or two places in order to guarantee a win.

 

More space in the WZs, and more objectives, or more careful map design could have significant effect on the importance of the gear and therefore on the enjoyment of the game by newcomers.

 

I do belive SWTOR WZ design is heavily pro-premade, pro-gear. No amount of being smart about your objectives will help you against a geared group, as there are no objectives that require deeper planning or coordination. Alderaan, the turrets are so close that a geared premade can comfortably keep two, sometimes even three. Huttball, a geared premade alone can score all the goals. Voidstar: the zone is large, but all the fighting always take place at two close chokepoints. No way around it: the people in übergear are everywhere everytime. You cannot outmanouvre them even if they have peanuts for brains. If a tactically savvy team meets a dumber but better geared team, who´s going to win?

 

It´s obviously just a part of the problem - but designing better Warzones would surely help to make chances of winning a match depend less on the gear, more on the players.