Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Hollingdale]

Please do not transform this game to WoW. I have played 3 different MMO's (including this one) and there were always a select group of die hard WoW fans who wanted the game to be like WoW; they demanded things such as interface, character classes, mods and so on.

 

Let TOR be the TOR.

 

Yes don't bring the dreadful elements in wow that are the ''INTERFACE'' ''CHARACTER CLASSES'' (whatever the **** you mean by that) and ''MODS'' as they are certainly some of the worst aspects of world of warcraft and could forever destroy this beautiful game.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Hollingdale

[Nikolu]

Yeah only pros use dps meters. They make encounters more difficult.

 

This is always the funniest part of these discussions. People trying to pretend they are better because they require something that makes the game easier.

 

The jig is up though, I am surprised some of you continue to proclaim your awesomeness on easy mode. Keep trying to act like people who want a mod that dumbs down content are superior players, it is still mildly amusing.

 

Let me ask you this: does using a dps meter make an encounter easier, harder or the same? ( here is a tip to your answer, if you choose harder or the same then you would not need them and would not be clamoring for them)

 

Now you have correctly selected easier, how do you determine that two groups do the same content that the group who chooses the easier mode is better.

 

Basic logic would indicate that is not the case ergo people who need meters can't be better than those who do not use them.

 

Thank you Mr. Pro!

 

I appreciate that you are a god among men and can easily decipher this games systems based on its current UI.

 

I'm assuming then that all future discussions regarding theorycrafting, gear, raid strategy, and optimal play can be directed to you?

 

Excellent!

 

Everyone, Mr. Pro would like to tell us all how to play the game and get the most from your raid.

 

One at a time now, don't crowd him.

[GalacticKegger]

LOL . . . more epeening. You kids have fun. May the Schwartz be with you. Edited January 11, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Hakkology]

No.

 

I could use a dps meter that is only for me to see how good i am in sense of sharpening my skills but Recount is just overkill. Don't want to kill all the fun with numbers, jerks and rages.

[Grim_X]

No.

 

I could use a dps meter that is only for me to see how good i am in sense of sharpening my skills but Recount is just overkill. Don't want to kill all the fun with numbers

First off, you can just hide the window! No more scary numbers! Secondly, why would someone want to raid with you if you have the self-centered mentality that what's happening to the rest of the group doesn't matter. You don't need to know who else died and why, or who was on the wrong target, who broke the CC or why (and how it can be avoided), who's taking the most damage and not getting healed, etc. Nope, all that matters is your own personal meters on your own screen, the group be damned.

 

 

, jerks and rages.

Player problem, not the fault of the tool. /ignore them and move on to a new group (or remove them from yours. This is not a valid argument.

[Hollingdale]

Yeah only pros use dps meters. They make encounters more difficult.

 

This is always the funniest part of these discussions. People trying to pretend they are better because they require something that makes the game easier.

 

The jig is up though, I am surprised some of you continue to proclaim your awesomeness on easy mode. Keep trying to act like people who want a mod that dumbs down content are superior players, it is still mildly amusing.

 

Let me ask you this: does using a dps meter make an encounter easier, harder or the same? ( here is a tip to your answer, if you choose harder or the same then you would not need them and would not be clamoring for them)

 

Now you have correctly selected easier, how do you determine that two groups do the same content that the group who chooses the easier mode is better.

 

Basic logic would indicate that is not the case ergo people who need meters can't be better than those who do not use them.

 

Hello there mr troll or double digit iq, fyi if there isn't any data available on what's doing what amount of dmg and which prioritations or rotations yields what results then there's no way to empirically investigate how to maximize damage, something which is typically required for harder raid encounters.

 

Fun fact: Lots of people also find it both fun, interesting, and rewarding experimenting with different tactics while being given direct feedback on whats actually happening. Doing this without any form of meters is just fumbling in the dark. Which while it is enough for most encounters means leaves the people who actually enjoy improving themselves with little to do. You can't dumb down easy content by adding damage meters, if it was easy before it will still be easy. But what you can do is add stuff that is actually demanding and requires you to play your character optimally, because you've given the player the tools to do so.

 

This is less about being pro and hardcore and more about NOT being a scrub who despises knowledge because it might result in them having to adjust in accordance with it rather than live in the imaginary worlds of their egos. Indeed you are quite deluded if you think being provided with data dumbs things down when what it does do is give you more pointers on what you should be doing and how you can improve, which is more accurately described as encouraging you to ''step up your game''.

 

Furthermore, your whole notion of what difficulty should be shows that you've no idea what you are talking about. An encounter according to you should be difficult because the players shouldnt know what to do or if they are doing things right, and not because doing what you should is hard in itself. Good luck getting a raiding scene going with that mentality.

 

And good job making a perfect example of my earlier analogy. Please take the wheels of your car next time you are driving somewhere.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Hollingdale

[Hakkology]

Originally Posted by Hakkology

No.

 

I could use a dps meter that is only for me to see how good i am in sense of sharpening my skills but Recount is just overkill. Don't want to kill all the fun with numbers

 

 

 

First off, you can just hide the window! No more scary numbers! Secondly, why would someone want to raid with you if you have the self-centered mentality that what's happening to the rest of the group doesn't matter. You don't need to know who else died and why, or who was on the wrong target, who broke the CC or why (and how it can be avoided), who's taking the most damage and not getting healed, etc. Nope, all that matters is your own personal meters on your own screen, the group be damned.

 

Hahah ! The problem is actually having the recount in the middle of an encounter. Perhaps they should just create dummy droids for practice which opens a damage testing window at the Republic Fleet. That would be my idea of the recount. I never had recount opened in the middle of an encounter because it mostly irritated me, making me nervous. Only used it to hone my dps outside the "real" combat.

 

Quote: , jerks and rages.

 

Player problem, not the fault of the tool. /ignore them and move on to a new group (or remove them from yours. This is not a valid argument.

 

Jerks= Elitist Jerks.

Besides;

Seriously ??? Ignore everyone raging ?? Are we even in the same galaxy ? Or irl, same world ? Ever played and mmorpg with recount before ?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Hakkology

[Aryzyra]

The problem is actually having the recount in the middle of an encounter.

 

If you find someone spamming a damage meter during combat, kick/ignore. Seriously, that's a person who will wipe the group and is doing you a favor by letting you know it.

 

Doesn't make the tool a bad thing. It's actually providing you a warning

[Traesket]

Jerks= Elitist Jerks.

Besides;

Seriously ??? Ignore everyone raging ?? Are we even in the same galaxy ? Or irl, same world ? Ever played and mmorpg with recount before ?

 

Hahahaha! That's hilarious. Everyone rages at you. Might there be a reason for that? Even so why would you care if Recount was implemented seeing as everyone already rages at you.

 

+1 Hollingdale

Edited January 11, 2012 by Traesket

[Grim_X]

Hahah ! The problem is actually having the recount in the middle of an encounter. Perhaps they should just create dummy droids for practice which opens a damage testing window at the Republic Fleet. That would be my idea of the recount. I never had recount opened in the middle of an encounter because it mostly irritated me, making me nervous. Only used it to hone my dps outside the "real" combat.

So if you always closed it, which is a valid choice, then why should it matter that others have it visible on your screen which doesn't impact you in the slightest? Or is this your way of telling other people how they should play? Which I might add is the exact same mentality you've attributed to "jerks" that you seem to despise. You don't want it and so you can hide it, that solves your issue, those that want it can use it. Everyone wins, I'm not sure why what you think needs to be what everyone else thinks, choice is good.

 

 

 

Jerks= Elitist Jerks.

Besides;

Seriously ??? Ignore everyone ?? Are we even in the same galaxy ? Or irl, same world ? Ever played and mmorpg with recount before ?

Hyperbole is the facet of those without real evidence. Besides, what you speak of is anecdotal, you make it sound like every other player is out to be jerk to you (even if we drop the "recount made them that way" mentality). I disagree, in my almost 10 years of MMOs not every player is like that, sure some are but I've always found them to be the exception rather than the rule. You can avoid that by choosing who you surround yourself with, if you choose to PUG what you get is random, grow a thicker skin, laugh it off, and move on. The world of MMOs is not out to get you.

[Wasqa]

For me a Combat Log Analyzer would do the following:

 

1. Understand what what stats to prioritize. As of right now, no one knows what stats to go for. Do I need crit, power, serge, accuracy? Little bit of everything? With a log parser you can eperiment an see your misses, dodged, parred etc.

 

2. Hate to die or take massive damage without knowing what hit me.

 

3. Better your strategy when working on the tough encounter.

[Hakkology]

Originally Posted by Hakkology

The problem is actually having the recount in the middle of an encounter.

 

If you find someone spamming a damage meter during combat, kick/ignore. Seriously, that's a person who will wipe the group and is doing you a favor by letting you know it.

 

Doesn't make the tool a bad thing. It's actually providing you a warning

 

 

Thanks for the advice, i'll keep it in mind .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Hakkology

Jerks= Elitist Jerks.

Besides;

Seriously ??? Ignore everyone raging ?? Are we even in the same galaxy ? Or irl, same world ? Ever played and mmorpg with recount before ?

 

Hahahaha! That's hilarious. Everyone rages at you. Might it be because you suck? Even so why would you care if Recount was implemented seeing as everyone already rages at you. The only people who rages is me is the one's I kick because they didn't do their part even though I told them how they could change for the better.

 

No this isn't personal... In fact i never was kicked. I've seen lots of poor guys taken out because their dps did not reach "standards" or failing a simple boss trick, ending with lots of negative rage. Have a couple of friends who quit W*W because of that ( Edit: One of them being my ex gf, i felt the need to mention this so that you can understand why this matters to me.), because they were humiliated in a group. Sadly, not everyone is %100 hardcore MMO experienced player. Did they deserve all the rage ?

 

Why am i feeding a troll ? Why am i this defensive on this matter ?

 

Blaah, i just hate to see an Elitist Jerks site of a wonderful game such as this. Wouldn't care about the recount, i would only use it to kill some droids at Ilum, to see how effective my rotation is. I'd just close the window while fighting.

 

W*W guys, you win today.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Hakkology

[Eyae]

Damage meters have their pros and cons, it's nice to know if someone is a lame and is holding the group back and it's also nice to know if you personally need to step your dps up but I feel that meters do more HARM than good, DPS players tend to turn into meter zombies who tunnel vision on their DPS and not actually do their job... like interrupt and stun/CC etc OR switch targets... the list goes on.

 

I think if a meter is implemented it should be a party leader/raid leader tool and not an individuals tool. Just my opinion though.

[Grim_X]

No this isn't personal... In fact i never was kicked. I've seen lots of poor guys taken out because their dps did not reach "standards" or failing a simple boss trick, ending with lots of negative rage. Have a couple of friends who quit W*W because of that, because they were humiliated in a group. Sadly, not everyone is %100 hardcore MMO experienced player. Did they deserve all the rage ?

Nope, some people are just jerks, some don't know how to talk to people and better them/the group and instead come off as insulting, some people don't know how to take criticism, and some people take things way too personally. People shouldn't be so offended by what other people say, thicker skin and all, move on, not everyone is out to be a jerk.

 

Blaah, i just hate to see an Elitist Jerks site of a wonderful game such as this. Wouldn't care a **** about the recount, i would only use it to kill some droids at Ilum, to see how effective my rotation is. I'd just close the window while fighting.

 

W*W guys, you win today.

 

Elitist Jerks despite the name, has evolved into a number of people who like "napkin math", that being figuring out everything numerically. The min-maxing meta game has existed forever, well before MMOs, it's inescapable. If numbers are not your thing, improving by numbers, or even any aspect of the meta game then you don't ever need to go there or any other similar such resource.

[Grim_X]

Damage meters have their pros and cons, it's nice to know if someone is a lame and is holding the group back and it's also nice to know if you personally need to step your dps up but I feel that meters do more HARM than good, DPS players tend to turn into meter zombies who tunnel vision on their DPS and not actually do their job... like interrupt and stun/CC etc OR switch targets... the list goes on.

 

I think if a meter is implemented it should be a party leader/raid leader tool and not an individuals tool. Just my opinion though.

 

More specifically:

DPS players tend to turn into meter zombies who tunnel vision on their DPS and not actually do their job...

I went and looked at the description and feature list of Recount and I can't seem to find where this is listed as a change to the game the addon specifically makes. There's nothing here about how it changes the game to not allow one to target different targets, or how it mutes all voice chat and closes your chat window. I'm failing to find any mention of it disabling abilities for you while installed or hiding targets on your screen so you only see one at a time. Perhaps you could point these out?

 

like interrupt and stun/CC etc OR switch targets...

Same as above, I can't find a feature in the addon that disables your interrupts or CCs, nor is there a listing of where it hides all but one target for you if installed.

 

People tunnel visioning, caring more about meters, etc is a PLAYER problem and is solved by the people running the group. Correct their behaviour or remove them from the group and find someone who is not a detriment to the group, plain and simple. Their mentality is not conducive to the group, it has nothing to do with the addon, these same people would do the same thing without it in another manner.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Grim_X

[Lokregar]

A combat log is a tool. A tool just like any tool has the potential to be misused.

 

You can use a hammer to nail a picture to your wall or you can misuse it to hit your finger instead. This does not mean a hammer should be forbidden. It just mean people should use it carefully.

 

Meters tell you so much. It tells you why you are dying to a boss, he uses ability X that hits hard, have to interrupt that. It tells you that pushing buttons A, B, C is better than pushing buttons D, E, F. It tells you that actually talent A is better than talent B. You don't even need an in game meter, just a log on disk that we can read through or write tools to parse.

 

For example a friend and I 2 manned most of a flashpoint (boarding party I think) and then we came to a boss fight with 2 adds, 1 add puts a shield on the boss and other add heals the boss. We naturally thought the correct strategy was to kill the adds and then the boss. It turns out the boss puts out so much damage it is far more effective to kill the boss first and then the adds. The reason is the reflective shield is negligible and the healing add doesn't heal that much. A meter would have saved us an hour of wipes (and waiting for our 20min cooldowns). We finally found the answer by searching online. Our final attempt armed with this knowledge and stims and the 20 min cooldown got us the boss.

 

TL;DR: Meters are a tool, tools can be misused doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

[Deyjarl]

and it's also nice to know if you personally need to step your dps up

 

Wouldn't that mean you are the one being lame and not maximizing your output?

 

 

 

And again nightmare mode has been beaten quite a few times already, but some guilds, and they did not need recount to do so.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Deyjarl]

Elitist Jerks despite the name, has evolved into a number of people who like "napkin math", that being figuring out everything numerically.

 

Fortunately they are a minority of players, and don't really need to be catered to.

[Deyjarl]

You can use a hammer to nail a picture to your wall or you can misuse it to hit your finger instead. This does not mean a hammer should be forbidden. It just mean people should use it carefully.

 

What a ridiculous comparison.

 

The problem is someone else is going around taking that hammer to other people's fingers.

 

A small vocal minority that have the habit of trying to ruin things for others.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Freyar]

I'd rather not have to deal with the typical bull**** that comes with combat meters. Seriously, just play the game. If a guy isn't doing well enough to the point where you notice, well.. you can deal with it without resorting to simply quoting numbers.

[Grim_X]

Fortunately they are a minority of players, and don't really need to be catered to.

 

I'd rather not have to deal with the typical bull**** that comes with combat meters. Seriously, just play the game. If a guy isn't doing well enough to the point where you notice, well.. you can deal with it without resorting to simply quoting numbers.

 

"I don't like other people telling me how to play." -> "They should all listen to me and play the way I tell them to without such things."

 

Pot calling the kettle black? If the option exists that those people can do their napkin math and you can just ignore said option entirely then it does not impact you. Everyone wins in that situation. You can carry on with your life ignoring it and they can do what they consider fun. Why is removing player choice a good thing?

Edited January 12, 2012 by Grim_X

[Gohlar]

"I don't like other people telling me how to play." -> "They should all listen to me and play the way I tell them to without such things."

 

Pot calling the kettle black? If the option exists that those people can do their napkin math and you can just ignore said option entirely then it does not impact you. Everyone wins in that situation. You can carry on with your life ignoring it and they can do what they consider fun. Why is removing player choice a good thing?

 

It effects other players.

[GoldPush]

I'm 100% for a recount-clone in this game, there is no reason to argument for this as it's painstakingly obvious it is one of the best tools to ever be in WOW.

[Turando]

I've said this in other other thread, so excuse the repetition.

 

MMOs are more than just a game, they are a social experience. Grouping requires your teammates to take real time out of their lives to accomplish a goal. So, your individual contribution affects the game enjoyment of others. I am not talking about necessarily min/max play, but sufficient play. If you are going to fulfill the role of damage dealer, you are expected to damage. And if Bosses have an enrage timer, than there is a minimal amount of DPS that must occur.

 

To see metrics on all areas of performance helps casual groups determine who is having their cat fart on the keyboard for them. It helps hard cores eek out bleeding edge dps for that server first achievement.

 

I would however support a limitation of the "reporting" of the metrics, i.e. the recount data cannot be spewed into chat channels without raid leader or raid assist rights.

[guided_by_voices]

I'm 100% for a recount-clone in this game, there is no reason to argument for this as it's painstakingly obvious it is one of the best tools to ever be in WOW.

 

disagree. it has helped turned the wow community into the trash talking unpleasantness it is now. it has also lead to one of the worst boss mechanics of all time "enrage timer".

Edited January 12, 2012 by guided_by_voices