Will swtor's engine ever be capable of handling more than 20 players?

[Kanharn]

Well something OBVIOUSLY is up then. Etither their engine sucks, which I wouldn't be surprised or ppl are just lying here about their computer specs - why they would do that, I haven't the foggiest clue...

What people not telling the truth on the net, I dont believe that, everyone knows people on the net are always honest and never lie.

[Bollah]

How can it not be the engine when so many are playing with high-end machines and using the same engine?

 

You asked a question ow I'll ask one.. What do you think it is?

 

After every patch and expansion in WoW "many" people have fps and graphical issues. Is the engine to blame?

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2416117439

[mbernert]

Classic case of blame the game not your rubbish PC.

 

Again, because the graphics are so worth a good pc to run it.

 

The requirement vs quality should read:

 

2ghz dual core, 2gb ram, geforce 8600 gt = 100fps imo

[pjskull]

How can it not be the engine when so many are playing with high-end machines and using the same engine?

 

You asked a question ow I'll ask one.. What do you think it is?

 

I don't have the foggiest on what the issue is. I don't have access to enough data, and frankly, no one who is not an employee of BioWare does either.

 

If you have a high end machine and are having issues, I sympathize with your plight. I would be frustrated as well. However, to come to the conclusion that it is the engine at fault just seems like a real leap.

 

It could be your ISP, it could be your drivers, it could be problems unique to your server, it could be your definition of "high end"... it could be any number of things.

 

I have just been around long enough to know that the knee jerk blame response in our lizard brains is almost always wrong.

 

Again if the engine causes FPS issues, why does it not cause them universally?

 

Clearly another variable is involved, at a minimum, yes? And how do we not know that said alternate variable is completely at fault? Or combined with an as yet unamed issue, perhaps?

 

The hyperbole over the engine just can't be proven. Presenting it as fact is unsupportable.

Edited January 10, 2012 by pjskull

[Argolith]

I was hoping you would do that. Let's compare our arguments side by side:

 

You are now claiming that SW:TOR is heavily instanced in the main game world, not because it improves performance but because:

 

1: Instancing the main game world is not counter-intuitive to MMOs and is viewed positively by players.

 

2: The game is not better enjoyed without an instanced main game world.

 

Conclusion: The main game world is instanced under no logical premise. We know nothing and never will.

 

Additionally, the premises you mark as opinions are not opinions. Empirically speaking, it can be observed that players prefer a lack of instancing in all situations where it can be achieved. If the prevailing opinion of the consumer is that one thing is good and another is bad, it is a fact that more people enjoy X than Y.

 

Also, I asked you to name the fallacy in my argument. Which you didn't. You initially claimed my argument was using a fallacy to draw its conclusion and you seem to not know which it was. A false premise is not a fallacy.

 

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't see past the False Dilemma

 

I concluded that your statements were opinions, not facts. That does not preclude them from being true for you, nor does it mean that the opposite has to be true for me. While you have observed that players prefer a lack of instancing, that just means that your sample may not be large enough to yield conclusive results.

 

Your original fallacy is a appeal to belief http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-belief.html. Or at least that's what I think it is, I've kind of lost track of this thread.

[xhaiquan]

Sounds like a issue with your PC. Even with 150 people at fleet I'm running smooth as silk on a 2 year old PC with a 4 year old 9800GTX.

[mcfabulous]

Unfortunately, you are omitting the idea of logic. You are correct, the poster is making assumptions, but they are based on logic. And if you apply Ockham's Razor he is correct.

 

Why else is the entire game so much on rails. You go where they want you to go. You get there, how they make you get there. When you get there it is instanced.

 

Everything is an instance in the game joined together by streets or hover-car rides.

Edit: And 'starship' rides.

 

Try using your personal hover-bike to get to every area on Corscant without using a taxi.

 

If you omit all the fluff and look at the logic, Ockham's razor suggests the most probable reason is they could do nothing else because of deficiencies in either their ability to code or deficiencies in the libraries they used. i.e.:The Engine.

 

All that being said, I'm open to your explanation of why too.

 

Actually O.R. would suggest people just don't have correct drivers (they use manufacture specific ones for some stupid reason) or else EVERYONE would be experiencing the so called problem. Not just 5-6%.

[DarthSublimitas]

Interestingly enough, the devs who try to use the hero engine run into a ton of lag themselves and are given these recomendations:

 

When I run HeroBlade, it runs really slowly During development, HeroBlade can occasionally get quite slow, especially when trying to draw several things at once, such as when several developers are working on the same area. To speed up game performance in these situations, try the following:

 

In the Room Toolbar, click on "Dim Other". This will stop other rooms from being drawn in the current area

Turn off options in the Filters menu.

 

For example, if you turn off Character viewing, the computer won't be trying to draw all the other characters and NPCs, and you'll only see their names floating in the air around you. To turn those off as well, toggle the GUI category in the Filters menu.

One recommended configuration is to turn off all filters except GUI, Model, and Heightmap.

 

Check also what other applications are running on your system. For example, if a virus scanner is running at the same time as HeroBlade, this could cause speed problems as the different applications fight for resources.

 

Why post this? Just a proof that there are rendering issues and it may not soley be your machines.

Edited January 10, 2012 by DarthSublimitas

[Argolith]

It could be your ISP, it could be your drivers, it could be problems unique to your server, it could be your definition of "high end"... it could be any number of things.

 

 

I just wanted to point out that you've hit on what a considerable amount of people miss. It could be any and ALL of those things.

 

Degradation of performance mostly can be traced back to a root cause, but there is also the possibility that many different factors contribute to the extreme differences that players are seeing.

[KazDvs]

You say you want a "true" open world, and that Bioware didn't deliver this to you. But I challenge you to name one other western MMO title that actually delivered this. Name one other game in which the game did not lag, either server side due to immense latency or client side due to poor rendering performance, for a significant amount of players when 200+ people were in the same place?

 

I will tell you now that you cannot. It happened in WoW, it happened in EQ2, it happened in RIFT, it happened in LoTRO, it happened many times whenever any kind of big world event occurs or in capital cities once a game gets boring and people just loiter.

 

You are complaining for the sake of complaining, asking for something you don't even want, because if there were no instances you would still complain of the lag. The lag will always be there until technology advances to the point where network infrastructure and client computer specifications no longer hold us back. And while that may sound asinine to you, its true.

 

Most of the people who are complaining about the lag have 4-5 year old computers, and those just wont cut it. If you want to blame anything blame the marketing team for most likely putting deceptively low minimum and recommended specs on the box. You need a better rig, sorry.

 

TL;DR

 

You are whining for the sake of whining.

Get a new PC.

Edited January 10, 2012 by KazDvs

[Kanharn]

Actually O.R. would suggest people just don't have correct drivers (they use manufacture specific ones for some stupid reason) or else EVERYONE would be experiencing the so called problem. Not just 5-6%.

very true.

[TheHirogen]

You say you want a "true" open world, and that Bioware didn't deliver this to you. But I challenge you to name one other western MMO title that actually delivered this. Name one other game in which the game did not lag, either server side due to immense latency or client side due to poor rendering performance, for a significant amount of players when 200+ people were in the same place?

 

I will tell you now that you cannot. It happening in WoW, it happened in EQ2, it happened in RIFT, it happened in LoTRO, it happened whenever any kind of big world event happened or many times in capital cities once the games got boring and people just loitered there.

 

You are complaining for the sake of complaining, asking for something you don't even want, because if there were no instances you would still complain of the lag. The lag will always be there until technology advances to the point where network infrastructure and client computer specifications no longer hold us back. And while that may sound asinine to you, its true.

 

Most of the people who are complaining about the lag have 4-5 year old computers, and those just wont cut it. If you want to blame anything blame the marketing team for most likely putting deceptively low minimum and recommended specs on the box. You need a better rig, sorry.

 

TL:DR

 

You are whining for the sake of whining.

Get a new PC.

 

9 year old Star Wars Galaxies shut down because of this games release to name one being lazy but since it wastheother SW MMO, well, bye and have a nice day.

[Setanian]

Classic case of blame the game not your rubbish PC.

 

I'm sorry and I don't care if I get a GM warning, but that has to be the most infantile comment I've read all night.

 

Did you read all the other posts?

 

I already stated I run Rift fine and Rift has better graphics than ToR

I run WoW fine, I run Everquest 1 fine, I run AoC fine.

 

And all of them in a Win7 VM on a Mac i7 with 16gb Memory.

 

The only game with an issue is SW:Tor lagging up in City type instances.

 

I can edit 400mb photos in CS5 at the same time as Lightroom is open at the same time as listening to music, all fine.

 

Don't assume that because you are Mr. Anonymous you can go throwing 'Rubbish PC' about and not get called.

[pjskull]

Actually O.R. would suggest people just don't have correct drivers (they use manufacture specific ones for some stupid reason) or else EVERYONE would be experiencing the so called problem. Not just 5-6%.

 

This is what I keep saying and keep saying and keep saying...

 

 

 

 

If it is the Hero Engine causing FPS issues, why does it not cause them universally?

[Kanharn]

This is what I keep saying and keep saying and keep saying...

 

 

 

 

If it is the Hero Engine causing FPS issues, why does it not cause them universally?

 

Agreed.

[TheHirogen]

Sounds like a issue with your PC. Even with 150 people at fleet I'm running smooth as silk on a 2 year old PC with a 4 year old 9800GTX.

 

I almost believed you until I realised you can'tbe speaking the truth since you should be experiencing ability lag second you enter, jumpon vehicle or do anything or your companion, fact is, I don't buy your story that you have zero hickups and framedrops withlag on fleet, unless one ofyou fraps it and show it running as perfect as you claim I call BS.

[pjskull]

I almost believed you until I realised you can'tbe speaking the truth since you should be experiencing ability lag second you enter, jumpon vehicle or do anything or your companion, fact is, I don't buy your story that you have zero hickups and framedrops withlag on fleet, unless one ofyou fraps it and show it running as perfect as you claim I call BS.

 

I am surely not going to the effort of all that. My machine is not older, it's brand new. I do not have any lag/fps issues at a very busy Fleet, nor frankly in any other area of the game.

 

You may choose to believe me or not. Do you think that this many people come to the forums to claim no performance issues for jollies?

 

I take those who claim performance issues at their word... I guess the rest of us don't get the same courtesy?

Edited January 10, 2012 by pjskull

[DarthSublimitas]

You say you want a "true" open world, and that Bioware didn't deliver this to you. But I challenge you to name one other western MMO title that actually delivered this. Name one other game in which the game did not lag, either server side due to immense latency or client side due to poor rendering performance, for a significant amount of players when 200+ people were in the same place?

 

I will tell you now that you cannot. It happened in WoW, it happened in EQ2, it happened in RIFT, it happened in LoTRO, it happened many times whenever any kind of big world event occurs or in capital cities once a game gets boring and people just loiter.

 

You are complaining for the sake of complaining, asking for something you don't even want, because if there were no instances you would still complain of the lag. The lag will always be there until technology advances to the point where network infrastructure and client computer specifications no longer hold us back. And while that may sound asinine to you, its true.

 

Most of the people who are complaining about the lag have 4-5 year old computers, and those just wont cut it. If you want to blame anything blame the marketing team for most likely putting deceptively low minimum and recommended specs on the box. You need a better rig, sorry.

 

TL;DR

 

You are whining for the sake of whining.

Get a new PC.

 

 

yep sir, you would be right. Hmmm... gee.... I guess if you people did what I told you to do and actually READ up on Hero Engine, then you would've seen that it's primarily for creating instances. Come on people - read to succeed lmao

[morbidillusion]

I'm sorry, I couldn't see past the False Dilemma

 

I concluded that your statements were opinions, not facts. That does not preclude them from being true for you, nor does it mean that the opposite has to be true for me. While you have observed that players prefer a lack of instancing, that just means that your sample may not be large enough to yield conclusive results.

 

Your original fallacy is a appeal to belief http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-belief.html. Or at least that's what I think it is, I've kind of lost track of this thread.

 

The appeal to belief is being misused (by you).

 

The false dilemma in Conclusion 1 is fair, I suppose, but Conclusion 1 was literally used to create the premise:

 

"BioWare has a reason to instance the main game world".

 

Feel free to deny that premise as much as you want on the grounds of "BioWare could have both not wanted their players to enjoy the game fully and had no reason for instancing the game world". The most favorable resulting conclusion from your new position is that BioWare instanced the main game world for no reason. If you are falsifying my argument based on a lack of agreement with that premise than I am happy.

 

You have to start to realize that you can't just attempt to slice imaginary holes in an argument without looking at what remains, logically, when you do so - unless you will continue to provide weak arguments and dig your own grave, like you have here.

Edited January 10, 2012 by morbidillusion

[Kanharn]

I almost believed you until I realised you can'tbe speaking the truth since you should be experiencing ability lag second you enter, jumpon vehicle or do anything or your companion, fact is, I don't buy your story that you have zero hickups and framedrops withlag on fleet, unless one ofyou fraps it and show it running as perfect as you claim I call BS.

 

I see your back from yet one more closed thread to talk utter rubbish.

I have no lag issues at all, no FPS problems and my game runs perfectly.

 

Then again you have lost all creditability on the TOR forums and no one ever agrees with you.

 

In your last thread that got closed you said that you are leaving TOR for ever, yet here you are.

[Ganadorf]

This is what I keep saying and keep saying and keep saying...

 

 

 

 

If it is the Hero Engine causing FPS issues, why does it not cause them universally?

 

That's like asking why you can't play Halo when you put the disk in your computer

 

The Hero Engine is poorly optimized, and as such doesn't work very well with many systems. This does not mean it can't work on any system

[Harabek]

There is a significant performance loss once there are 20+ players in one place, or enemies maybe (as it's fine on the station). Ilum is a pain even on my computer, as soon as they pop up on the screen it switches to round based playstyle.

 

Im pretty sure i can outrule my gaming-rig as possible reason

[Kanharn]

I am surely not going to the effort of all that. My machine is not older, it's brand new. I do not have any lag/fps issues at a very busy Fleet, nor frankly in any other area of the game.

 

You may choose to believe me or not. Do you think that this many people come to the forums to claim no performance issues for jollies?

 

I take those who claim performance issues at their word... I guess the rest of us don't get the same courtesy?

Just ignore that TheHirogen kid, all his threads get locked for being totally worthless and no one takes what he says seriously.

 

Hes just trying to get a rise out of you because he does not like the game and is here to annoy people.

[Logiick]

This game engine is nearly brand new. Give them time to work out the kinks.

 

Some of the drivers on the SERVER side of things aren't even fully supported yet.

 

Additionally, I personally don't have issues with large amounts of players on screen outside of PVP. In PVP, it's a different story. Some matches cause my GPU usage to drop below 20% and thus cause 20fps. But, in time there will be matured drivers.

 

The Hero engine is old, not 'nearly brand new'.

[Setanian]

This is what I keep saying and keep saying and keep saying...

 

 

 

 

If it is the Hero Engine causing FPS issues, why does it not cause them universally?

 

Because the problem doesn't raise itself until a certain # of players and companions are there, or because it's a city or because of many many things.

 

If I'm able to run around tyhon happily with no lag and suddenly when I hit the spaceport I get lag and when I leave I have no lag, it's the engine or the coding. My ISP does not have a habit of watching when I hit the spaceport and throttle my connection. Neither is my graphics card intelligent enough to lag at the exact same spot every time.

 

My machine is built for professional photography editing, and it renders 100+mb photos without any problems and allows me to edit many many CS5 layers and still not slow down.

 

But when I play ToR and hit an area with many npcs and players and big city type structures, it lags to death. This to me points to an engine that cannot handle the instance size with the npc count and the pc count.

 

I'll agree with you, I don't know ToR code or the engine, but I do know my machine. And I've been playing MMos since the release of Everquest, and I blame the game.