Izini Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 People saying its the buffs and its the gear are being willfulling dumb. No way is any class suppose to kill a equally lvl'd/geared opponent that fast, period. This cannot be argued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakks Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 WOW! A single Operative manage to build/stim/adrenal himself to hit 10k and EVERY OPERATIVE MUST BE NERFED!!1111 Dear Rocket Surgeon, This Operative wasn't doing anything any operative couldn't do, therefore it's the general mechanics that are broken -- unless you think Bioware can nerf this players fingers and thus make the problem go away. Please use your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakks Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm going to start off by saying that yes the Op burst could be toned down a bit (though the Sustained DPS would have to be increased to compensate) That said, there's a major difference between what you stated and what an Operative is truly capable of. Yes, to achieve your damage you need to have a prep time of 4 second. Yes, an operative can get a higher burst than you. There's a caveat though. The operative can't keep doing that. Stealth has a ten second cooldown so I can only get my 10k fully buffed open from stealth hits every ten seconds. Once you get your build up you can probably maintain that for far longer than an Operative can, resulting in much higher DPS in the same length of time. I'll say it one more time, so hopefully people will actually catch it. Operative burst IS currently too high, but if it is lowered the Operative sustained DPS will have to increase to compensate. You will never see an Operative win a fight without their opener against a semi-decent player. Never. Operative simply does not have enough sustained DPS to win. Again, nerf burst, buff sustained. The bigger problem is Operatives basically ignoring mitigation. And no, operatives easily can double the damage of any other player in a WZ. They need mitigation fixed and their stuns added to a DR. Good operatives will still wipe the floor with people, and the bad ones will reroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lina_Inverse Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) with 480 expertise on a shadow, if i hit you with two clairvoyant strikes (sub 1k attacks) to buff project base dmg by 30%, grab a warzone expertise buff, pop a pvp expertise consumable, pop a surge/crit relic, pop a power adrenal, use a stim, and have all available buffs up... i've hit a project for 5900 (please note... that took two prep attacks.. minimum 4 seconds... plus the hour and 1/2 it took for the rock to come out of the ground and hit you). in this video... the guy opened from stealth for 9928... and then IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED IT... with a 6.5k hit. there literally... is absolutely nothing else... left to be said. You forget to add in the dot attached to the first ability that's ticking from 4-6k internal damage over 6 seconds off of a hit that large. So more or less 15k from the first ability followed by the 6.5k hit. Edited January 10, 2012 by Lina_Inverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lina_Inverse Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This video is clearly a mix of clever editing and staged fights. My reasoning? Every operative claims they can't do damage out of stealth, and this video clearly shows you can. I call shenannigans. This post is on to something, if you can follow his reasoning. I'm with this guy. There's a conspiracy afoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saben- Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's stupidity, and I bet you play a scoundrel / operative. This class is indeed a burst class, but they burst way too high with the right buffs. They can burst down equal geared players in less than 5 seconds, which does not represent equality. I think you should get your ''stupid'' checked out. And yes, you can cc an operative, you can run. That's what everyone is saying here. You shouldn't have to run, scoundrels and operatives should be beatable like any class, if well played. The class itself is just a 3 button class right now which bursts down anyone else equally geared without putting effort in it. Your senseless caps raging won't prevent the nerf bat, buddy QFT Takedown > Stabby > Restealth > heal > Repeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Remove their 100% armor bypass buff. Problem solved. I agree! Acid Blade should be nerfed to 50% armor penetration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You guys will **** bricks when when a Jugg or Sniper decides to make a video with those buffs. What do you think a fully buffed Smash would hit a group for? I've seen 30k damage. I bet we could get it up to 50k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I'll take an assassin/shadows sustained damage (which is far higher) and battlefield mobility (which is far better) over our hidden strike burst any day. Make it happen. While we are at it we may as well make hidden strike not require stealth as well seeing as it's completely useless once we are engaged in a fight and unable to drop combat (which any smart player will absolutely make sure you stay in combat). Edited January 10, 2012 by Kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheJollyRogers Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I am a BH with 10% expertise, around 1600 Aim, 550 power and Biochem 400/400. When I grab the expertise buff, the highest I can get is a 5500 with Heatseeker, and I must have 3 tracer missile signatures before then. No. Not every class can get up to 10k + 6.5k. It's just you, Operatives/Scoundrals. Assassins can't even step near that kind of burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythicrose Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The bigger problem is Operatives basically ignoring mitigation. And no, operatives easily can double the damage of any other player in a WZ. They need mitigation fixed and their stuns added to a DR. Good operatives will still wipe the floor with people, and the bad ones will reroll. Make their opener a "weapon damage" attack instead of the current "kinetic damage" would help reduce that damage through mitigation. This wouldn't effect light and medium armor wearers a great deal but they might live through the initial knockdown if their counter CC skill is available. And as you said, a good operative would still wipe the floor with people even with that change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You forget to add in the dot attached to the first ability that's ticking from 4-6k internal damage over 6 seconds off of a hit that large. So more or less 15k from the first ability followed by the 6.5k hit. 10k damage is excessive, yes. The first 2 minutes of the video were reasonable. The last bit with the slow motion crits was extreme buff stacking for a video. Control the way buffs stack, and you'll keep players from hitting for 10k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paganini Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I am a BH with 10% expertise, around 1600 Aim, 550 power and Biochem 400/400. When I grab the expertise buff, the highest I can get is a 5500 with Heatseeker, and I must have 3 tracer missile signatures before then. No. Not every class can get up to 10k + 6.5k. It's just you, Operatives/Scoundrals. Assassins can't even step near that kind of burst. Eh Assassins definitely can get that burst if they set it up, even better burst actually. I'll take an assassin/shadows sustained damage (which is far higher) and battlefield mobility (which is far better) over our hidden strike burst any day. Make it happen. While we are at it we may as well make hidden strike not require stealth as well seeing as it's completely useless once we are engaged in a fight and unable to drop combat (which any smart player will absolutely make sure you stay in combat). I'll give you the battlefield mobility but no way do Shadows/Sins do more sustained damage than operatives. The video in the OP isn't even impressive when it comes to the end of warzone screenshots. Any geared operative that is damage-whoring should easily break 400k in VS/Alderaan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fest Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 except the first 3 people were in the same guild, clearly geared, and the BH did nothing Show me the 10k crit vs a geared level 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathid Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I can tell you it is buffs and maybe gear. I am a 50 scrapper (Operative mirror), and my big crits are 3.5k on low level players. I have 2 pieces of PvP gear and the relic and no stims. There are so many times that I open on someone and hit for 1.5k and proceed to get my butt handed to me in like 5 seconds. Same,gear gear gear and the stims is how these guys are pullingthese numbers. You guys want an OP class? look at the sith inquis,trust me on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblongship Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What do you think a fully buffed Smash would hit a group for? I've seen 30k damage. I bet we could get it up to 50k. This guy is one devoted OP...he is on every thread trying to take attention away from them being to powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lina_Inverse Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) 10k damage is excessive, yes. The first 2 minutes of the video were reasonable. The last bit with the slow motion crits was extreme buff stacking for a video. Control the way buffs stack, and you'll keep players from hitting for 10k. No doubt biochem and buff stacking still needs to be controlled, but 5k + 2k dot from the opener(that also is a 3 second cc) followed by 3.5k crits that bypass every defense in the game minus active damage reduction aren't much better when compared to the unbuffed damage of other classes(hint, it's still proportionately lower burst with more setup). Those numbers are bigger even without biochem and simply running the relic. I'll always believe there's a serious problem in the WAY the do damage, or how defenses in this game work, until they fix one or the other. Either way the opener really is too strong, and not just because of its lack of cooldown, the great damage, or the knockdown, but also because it sets up their next big hits nicely as well (by applying the acid blade armor pen buff and granting a TA), refute it if you want with your personal opinion but it gives them too much in mine. If they were helpless afterword I'd still say it's a poor design, but at least it'd be closer to balanced. Such is not the case, however. Edited January 10, 2012 by Lina_Inverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacopx Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think people need to chill out on crying for nerfs and re-evaluate when lvl 50 only warzones are available. If anyone played DAOC, infiltrators/nightshade/shadowblade could all one shot equal level casters pretty easily from stealth. If not one shot then before the opener stun wore off. The difference between DAOC and SWTOR is that here you can restealth immediately if you kill someone quickly without being targetted. (I don't play an OP/Scoundrel so correct me if I am wrong) If BW put a 10 second timer on restealth after being in combat I think OP/Scoundrel would be more in line with how they should play. (Highest burst in game from stealth but then less effective sustained) My 2c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saben- Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm going to start off by saying that yes the Op burst could be toned down a bit (though the Sustained DPS would have to be increased to compensate) That said, there's a major difference between what you stated and what an Operative is truly capable of. Yes, to achieve your damage you need to have a prep time of 4 second. Yes, an operative can get a higher burst than you. There's a caveat though. The operative can't keep doing that. Stealth has a ten second cooldown so I can only get my 10k fully buffed open from stealth hits every ten seconds. Once you get your build up you can probably maintain that for far longer than an Operative can, resulting in much higher DPS in the same length of time. I'll say it one more time, so hopefully people will actually catch it. Operative burst IS currently too high, but if it is lowered the Operative sustained DPS will have to increase to compensate. You will never see an Operative win a fight without their opener against a semi-decent player. Never. Operative simply does not have enough sustained DPS to win. Again, nerf burst, buff sustained. Sustained dps is overrated its absolutely rubbish in other words easily healed through but even easier to just LoS it. LoS > all in this game bar the instakilling ops around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox_McCloud Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I see nothing at all wrong with back to back crits for 10k and 6k in the span of about 1 second. I especially do not consider this a problem seeing that players usually have that much or less life bars at full. I think 1 second is sooo totally reasonable for a level 50s survivability. I think 1.5 seconds is fair for a tank. This give a lot of room for pvp skill, reaction time and real fair and balanced play in a competitive manner. In fact, I think this is the best pvp I have ever played! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhifu Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I agree! Acid Blade should be nerfed to 50% armor penetration. I guess you didn't see my post where I corrected the value to 50%. Good job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xontier Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Sustained dps is overrated its absolutely rubbish in other words easily healed through but even easier to just LoS it. LoS > all in this game bar the instakilling ops around Oh, I agree fully. But if you nerf Operative burst without at least giving us more sustained we'll be more rubbish than... well, anything. Operatives are ALL burst, and if the target isn't dead within the first few seconds, we're basically just trying to tickle them to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordKivlov Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) ITT: Operatives/Scoundrels trying to defend their class. I'm one of the most geared commandos on my server, if not the most geared. Operatives at level 40 were dropping me to below half with their opening 2 attacks. The level 50 drop me to 20%. I can pop my stun break, cryonade and try to run but you have all the same stun/stun breaks I have plus a ranged interupt to stop heals or damage. And if all else fails, just vanish and run up and kill them. You think this is balanced? In what world is that balanced that you can drop the tankiest non-tank class to less than half HP with 1 button? My roomate is full tank spec in equal gear to me and he gets dropped to half almost as quickly. That is some serious imbalance with your opening attack when you can sustain 2-3k crits every GCD after that because your backstab has a 180 degree hit arc. That needs to be toned down a tad and if you disagree, then you're just blatantly defending your class because you don't want to get nerfed. Edited January 10, 2012 by LordKivlov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flooble Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I would bet my mortgage that if op/scoun didn't have stealth, we wouldn't be having this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flooble Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 ITT: Operatives/Scoundrels trying to defend their class. I'm one of the most geared commandos on my server, if not the most geared. Operatives at level 40 were dropping me to below half with their opening 2 attacks. The level 50 drop me to 20%. That's odd, I've seen posts claiming that they only kill ops half the time and its not fair. Oh, I forgot to say, they are level 41 facing down level 50 ops. Honestly, level 40 ops, jump you and you lose 50% health..are you wearing the gear you [claim] to have? Do you actually die to a level 40? Because if you do...P.I.C.N.I.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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