Rolling need for your companion

[OsarionRDM]

Essentially that is what we have. everyone grabs NEED, then we get the random roll.

 

I don't follow. Assuming you establish ground rules against needing for companion, master looter solves this qute nicely. Unless your group leader uses the opportunty to steal everything for himself lol.

 

Everyone casts lots in chat with /random. Master looter grants item to legitimate winner.

[SchwartzMaster]

Ah Loot Rules. If you are grouping with people you don't know, and with no rules set before hand, then everyone is putting in time and effort for loot. Loot has a monetary value, and as we know, time is money. Technically everyone is entitled to a fair share of that piece of loot.

 

The expectation in most(all?)MMOs however is that if a piece of loot is useable and an upgrade it should go to the player/class/spec that can use it. This is why I don't advocate pugging unless it is a last resort, and for players to try to lay down groundrules if they are put in to a situation where they have to pug. However one should not be surprised if ninja looting happens(swiftly ungroup with the player and look for a substitute) and go on your merry way.

 

Just remember, don't expect everyone to adhere to the unspoken rule of I won't roll need unless my player needs. SWTOR has companions and all gear is up for grabs. If you want specific rules in a random pug make sure you're crystal clear beforehand, otherwise, do yourself a favor and group with friends.

[Revenaught]

But would you have had access to that gear without 3 other players helping you? No.

 

Those other players are more than welcome to roll on gear for their companions as well. Equal opportunity for all involved.

[Endzeitz]

Just add a third type of roll? 'Companion roll' and if you press 'need' you can't give the item to any of your companions.

[jontyld]

One day all you Wow types will grow up and realise that a companion is so far removed from a pet...

 

Anyhoo, I'll leave you people to continue this quite pointless debate..

 

or you'll hit 50 and realize how little your companions matter anymore

[profaneascension]

Those other players are more than welcome to roll on gear for their companions as well. Equal opportunity for all involved.

 

In that case, where does one draw the line between Need and Greed? We all have five different companions that can use various pieces of gear. Or are you saying that there is no such thing as a Greed roll anymore because you can contrive a reason to be needful of every kind of loot?

[Chiramu]

1. Find group

2. Establish ground rules before starting

3. ???

4. Profit

 

One problem, D-bags don't listen and can't read...

 

MMORPGS just have this problem :/, it comes with the community. Like they say, "it takes all kinds"... >.>

[KippTabor]

In that case, where does one draw the line between Need and Greed? We all have five different companions that can use various pieces of gear. Or are you saying that there is no such thing as a Greed roll anymore because you can contrive a reason to be needful of every kind of loot?

 

Bingo!

 

This is a contrived excuse to ninja, nothing more, nothing less. The final agenda being that these selfish navel-gazers can use it as an excuse to loot for all 5 companions. The small handful of players on this thread who have been told by dozens of people that it's lamer behavior, really need to wake up and realize that most of us see through their psychobabble, plausible deniability word-salad.

Edited January 11, 2012 by KippTabor

[TheHeadCapper]

In that case, where does one draw the line between Need and Greed? We all have five different companions that can use various pieces of gear. Or are you saying that there is no such thing as a Greed roll anymore because you can contrive a reason to be needful of every kind of loot?

 

Nail on the head! We have a winner of the big first prize.

[thecoffeecup]

If I can tell that nobody else uses that kind of gear and my companion does, I ask if it's OK to roll need for my companion. If so, I do. Everyone said yes so far.

 

I would never roll need without asking though.

Edited January 11, 2012 by thecoffeecup

[Vydor_HC]

In that case, where does one draw the line between Need and Greed? We all have five different companions that can use various pieces of gear. Or are you saying that there is no such thing as a Greed roll anymore because you can contrive a reason to be needful of every kind of loot?

 

That's right..this trying to define need and greed is really an exercise in futility. There are many many ways people have need for items, narrowing it down to what one things is appropriate invites turmoil. In the end the best approach is everyone take their chances..live with the results, and trade with others for stuff you want.

 

But the first rule, is don't PUG unless you set down the loot rules. Then you have all the right in the world to call a person out who breaks them.

[Slteath]

I actually ignore my companion, lol. they get what i loot myself.

When I roll need or greed, i just think if I can use it, never thought about if my companion needs.

like someone mentioned before, we have 5 companions, chances are, they will need like 99% of the loot. so why bother, they are like step child, just let them have left overs.

[profaneascension]

That's right..this trying to define need and greed is really an exercise in futility. There are many many ways people have need for items, narrowing it down to what one things is appropriate invites turmoil. In the end the best approach is everyone take their chances..live with the results, and trade with others for stuff you want.

 

But I don't think it's an exercise in futility. Allow me to illustrate the difference.

 

A Flashpoint boss drops a piece of loot. It's a big upgrade for that group's tank, but it's also a big upgrade for the DPS' tank companion.

 

Outcome #1: we give the group's tank the upgrade. He can now use it to tank the next encounter. He can also use it to run another Flashpoint, an Operation, a Heroic 2 group, and even in a solo situation no matter which companion he uses. In other words, he now performs better in his role overall because he got the upgrade.

 

Outcome #2: the DPS rolls Need and wins it for his companion. It cannot be used to make the next encounter easier, because he can't pull out his companion. He cannot pull out his companion in the Operation, either. He does, however, benefit in a Heroic 2 group or solo situation, but only if he uses that particular companion.

 

Do you see the difference?

Edited January 11, 2012 by profaneascension

[Breeti]

Don't companions deserve cool loots too? I mean they are with you more than anyone else, so you should just take everything for them. I bet that is Bioware's official stance on it.

[traft]

I get flooded with whispers asking me to tank stuff whenever I log on with my PT but I only tank for guild groups. There are too many morons out there to waste time and effort on these mouth breathers who would take loot for a companion ahead of someone who needs it for themselves.

[Eldren]

For all the people who present the argument that gear from group content should only go to the players (and not their companions) who were in the group content, you should ask yourselves a simple question:

 

1. Are you only going to use that drop in group content?

 

If you use it even once while you're out in the world, whether leveling or doing a level-cap daily, your argument falls apart. You make claims that someone rolling Need on gear for their companion is cheating someone in the group out of something, when the reality is you, all 4/8/16 of you, equally contributed in downing the boss that dropped the gear. You aren't in there to gear up other players, you aren't in there to intentionally sacrifice your own gear progression so another player can upgrade themselves. You cooperate to down the boss, and your cooperation ends when a piece of loot you want shows up. You start cooperating again when the group decides it wants to down more bosses. After it's done, and you're back out in the world, that loot you received doesn't benefit that group anymore. It benefits you, and it benefits only you. So the "group contribution/group distribution" argument simply doesn't hold water. That loot only benefits one player, and that's the one who won the roll on it.

 

From earlier in this thread, since it blossomed to 40 pages while I was busy working today:

 

If you hate SWTOR and want it to fail, then please be my guest and continue rolling Need for your companions.

Unnecessary hyperbole that doesn't actually make a logical argument.

 

MMOs are all about cooperation. If you wanted to just play with yourself and your companions then there are better and cheaper single-player games out there. And when you join a group, it is pretty much a given that you are there to cooperate with all these other people towards a common goal.

Yes, and that common goal is loot that drops from bosses. But that loot only goes to one player at a time. The group doesn't benefit from it unless it's non-slotted gear that the player immediately equips. Even then, the group only benefits from the upgrade for the length of that content. Once the party breaks up, that loot is right back to benefitting one, and only one, person: the player who won the roll. So your attempt to make an ad populum appeal falls apart.

 

And that extends to the loot because that never would have dropped just for you. It dropped for your group. It did not exist in a vacuum and all of a sudden you just stop cooperating when it comes to the rewards that the group earned. That's just being selfish. When you roll Need for a companion you're saying that noone else in the group matters except you.

That loot dropped because of the group, it did not drop for the group, and that's an important distinction. You aren't going to hand out copies of the loot: one piece drops, and it only goes to one person: the player who won the roll. When you roll Need for a companion, you aren't saying no one else in the group matters besides you, you're saying that piece is an upgrade for your character, which includes your companion.

 

Using your logic, no piece of loot should ever go to any player, because once that group breaks up, it's no longer the "group's" loot. It's benefitting one player, and one player only.

 

You're already fighting against the game for these loot with the randomness and now you have to fight against your own team? Who would want to group up in that scenario. I know for me, the existence of Companion Looters have lessened my wanting to keep playing. Or at least grouping up with random people.

Only you can control your gaming experience. If you wind up in a party with a person or people who you don't like playing with, you can put them on /ignore and leave the group. If this is something that makes you not want to play as much, that's your choice, and impetus for it lies solely with you, not with others. Take responsibility for your own actions.

 

Not only that but Companion Looters are being short-sighted when they roll Need for their companions. Not only are they cheating their current group out of an immediate performance gain, they are also cheating every group that guy they stole from will ever join.

You think if an orange piece drops that it's an immediate performance gain? Most of the time, it doesn't have mods in it, meaning no one's going to bother equipping it until they get to a GTN node and acquire some mods, or have a crafter friend make them some. You say if someone rolls on something for their companion over a player they're cheating every group that person will ever join, I say look at the logical conclusion of your statement: any time any single player gets a piece of gear another player in their group wanted, they're "cheating that player's future groups from the performance gain".

 

You can't just say that because you helped in the group that everything that drops in it should be yours. You cooperate with others by only rolling Need on what your character can use and Greed for everything else. Not only will you be helping your current group perform better, you are also helping all the groups that guy will join in the future to perform better.

You're starting to sound like a proponent of Socialism: "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." I don't say that because I helped a group down something that everything that drops in the FP or Op should be mine. I do, however, say that my right to roll on something for my companion's upgrade is equal to a player's right to roll on something for their character. We both contributed, we both see a need for a given piece, we both roll Need on it, and an impartial, RNG-based system decides who gets it. Nothing could be less partial!

 

I'm not in a Flashpoint to help the other players' future groups. I'm in a Flashpoint to get upgrades and see content. I cooperate with those players to the extent required to have a chance (not a guarantee) at upgrades. Once the group is done, unless it's a guild run (in which case this particular discussion is moot), I won't be grouping with those players again on anything resembling a regular level. They don't benefit from me getting upgrades, I don't benefit from them getting upgrades, and ultimately, we are playing this game for our own benefit. Don't fool yourself into thinking differently.

 

And that's pretty much one of the things you can do that will lead to a good community. When everyone pitches in and gives to others rather than being selfish and only thinking of their own advancement.

This, right here, is blatant socialism. This game isn't about giving to others. This game is about cooperating with others so each individual has a better chance of meeting their individual goals. If you're truly altruistic enough to put in time, effort, and repair bill costs for the sole reason of seeing someone else of your level and not in your guild to get gear, more power to you. I would guess you're in a vast, vast minority.

 

Good community comes from people playing nice with each other, and being polite to each other. But there are limits to all things, and the instant people are so polite to others that their own needs aren't met, they've moved from "being polite" to "being taken advantage of", and they have no one to blame but themselves for not standing up and saying "I need this." It would be beneficial for you to understand that no individual player requires other players' approval to gear up their character or their companions. It doesn't even matter that you can gear up the companion via GTN purchases or quest rewards; maybe the proper upgrade hasn't dropped in a quest reward, or maybe you had to choose something else when it was an option. Maybe you don't want to, or can't afford to, spend money on the GTN for a companion upgrade, but you do have the time to run a Flashpoint or two for the chance at upgrades. Whatever it is, you put in equal effort, you have equal right to stake a claim to any rewards from that effort, since rewards aren't handed out to every player with every boss death. It doesn't mean you're going to get something, but you have a better chance of getting something if you click the button than you do by passing or choosing an option that allows a different player to take priority over you.

 

Why even play an MMO if you're not going to participate in the community? Doesn't make a lick of sense. All I'm hearing from this arguments is "What about me? Me? Me?!" When the question should be "What about Us?" It's not like you're never going to see these other people ever again. Some of them you'll be leveling with all the way to the cap. Keep in mind that some people can really hold a grudge. It might not matter in the long run but some feelings can last a lifetime even when the actual reason has long been forgot.

Of course you should participate in the community. This doesn't mean you forego all ability to upgrade yourself while you're doing so. On a high population server, many people won't see every person again they grouped with while leveling. If they do, their performance is likely to be remembered a lot more than them having won a piece of gear for their companion while people were busy leveling. Once you're in Operations and you start to see a lot more people a lot more often, it's a moot point anyway, as you have no choice over loot distribution. The system distributes the loot for you.

 

And if you're really worried about someone holding a grudge against you for a long time over something that happened in the game, I would point out that you should at that point be more worried about their general emotional maturity than anything relating directly to the game.

 

Also, if Bioware really wanted companions to be an integral part of your character then they shouldn't have made them count against the total number in a group. A full group would then consist of 8 characters, 4 players and 4 companions. That's the only situation rolling Need for a companion in a full group actually come close to making sense. And even then, priority on players before lousy A.I. who couldn't even run out of AoE if their lives depended on it.

If you want evidence that BioWare considers companions to be an integral part of your character, all I'd need to point out is the reality that you can't successfully progress your storyline to 50th level and its conclusion without the use of your companions. I can remember a quest I was doing at the end of the Taris planetary arc that made use of all my companions as an integral part of conversation options and cutscenes. It bore a striking resemblance to the final mission for Commander Shepard in Mass Effect 2, where who you chose to do what had a meaningful impact on how you won the game, and whether some even survived. I don't see BioWare permanently killing our companions in this game, but the mechanic remains the same. Even outside that planetary story arc, your companions are required while leveling on just about every character. If you're a damage dealer, you're going to need a healing companion (because medpacks have a cooldown) to keep you alive, or a tanking companion to keep the mobs off you while you do your thing. If you're a tank, you're going to need damage dealers so you aren't dealing with 10-minute trash fights. On and on. Companions are a very integral part of this game, and if they aren't geared appropriately for the level of content you're doing, your performance, and in some cases ability to complete the content at all, is severely impacted.

 

Furthermore, for those defending Companion Looter behavior they should be the ones to announce at the start of the group that they roll Need for their companions. Otherwise, they are just thieves.

 

Here you're just attempting to lay a moralistic judgment on an amoral activity. I choose to ask out of courtesy, but at no point do I ever think I am required to ask.

 

 

I am honestly amazed at this thread and the people who truly believe rolling on an item they can't immediately equip is "ok".

 

All the logical people have already spoken very valid points about why you should NOT roll need on something your companion needs, but I'll revisit a few points.

I have a hard time taking your position seriously when you already attempt to set up a false dichotomy by claiming that the people who support your perspective are being logical, while inferring that your opposition is summarily incapable of the same. This said, I'll bite.

 

1. Companions do not participate in the flashpoint at the time the loot drops.

- I really don't care if you believe your companion "IS YOUR MAIN" like marmalade keeps spouting off. No it isn't. Your main is the character you are controlling which contributed to the success of the group. Your companion did nothing to help OUR group.

It doesn't matter. The loot that drops in that FP is going to be used exponentially more often outside that group than it is inside it. Each individual player is in there to have a shot at better upgrades for themselves. They aren't in there to gear you, or other players in the group, up. They're willing to help do so, but not at their own expense. They aren't asking for guaranteed loot, they're just asking for an equal shot at any drops they want, and are willing to put in personal time to have that shot.

 

2. Rolling need for your companion, NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT, is SELFISH.

- This of course has it's exceptions, such as NO HUMAN PC needed the item.

How can you sit there and be satisfied with yourself in the following scenario:

~Heavy armor drops. The HEAVY ARMOR WEARING tank says "oh wow that's a HUGE upgrade for me!" You (let's say you're a sorc), roll need. You win the roll. The heavy armor wearing tank asks why you rolled need.... You say... here it comes.... It's for Khem Val.

You're making an absolute statement without the provision of any absolute, unquestionable data to back it up. Thus, the best you can say is you think such players are being selfish. It doesn't objectively mean they're being so. Either way, as long as that heavy armor piece in your example doesn't have a class requirement on it that would prevent your companion from using it, you rolling Need on it is just as valid as the tank doing the same: you both assisted in downing the boss, you both have a right to stake a claim to gear that you can make use of.

 

It honestly urks me that you don't in any way feel bad about that?

 

For me personally, even if it's a PUG, when I see someone get to upgrade a piece of equipment, I'm happy for them, give them a grats! in chat and hope I also get an upgrade during the run.

Re: the irking comment, your approval isn't required, nor is it courted, by me. If someone else in a party gets an ugprade, I always congratulate them, even if they beat my roll to get it. I don't care if they're going to wear it or their companion is, the end result is that player just got an upgrade that improves their gaming experience, which is what we're all in there for. I'm not going to intentionally limit my gaming experience's enjoyment to satisfy someone else's loot priority perspective.

 

3. WE ALL HAVE COMPANIONS.

- If one or two classes had a pet/companion and their DPS, even while grouped, depended on the gearing of their pet/companion it would be a different story.

Yes, we all have companions. All of them need gear. Practically speaking most players aren't bothering to gear up more than one or two of those companions. I'm playing a Marauder and use Jaesa most of the time. When her damage output and mine can't down something, I pull out Quinn, and usually get it done. I haven't used Vette since I got Quinn, and I haven't used Pierce or Broonmark at all, nor do I have plans to.

 

The reality of every player having companions, all of whom need upgrades just the same as the player's character, shows me that the NBG system doesn't fit this particular game very well, and something much broader like Roll/Pass would make more sense. It doesn't make sense to include a third option for companions, because if it's better than Greed and less than Need, then "Companion" becomes the new Greed so people can improve their overall chances. If it's equal to Greed, it's pointless to have the secondary distinction save to facilitate not communicating with the others in your group about your intentions for use of the item, which is ultimately none of their business anyway. There are a lot more valid uses for gear in this game than in previous MMOs. Seems the most impartial way to handle distribution, and to preemptively head off all the complaints, is to just have Roll/Pass.

 

4. Companions help you while you play SOLO, which some of you admit is most of the time you play. So you know what? Why don't you spend your SOLO time to gear up your companion.

 

Sure, let's do that. We'll do that if you agree to never once use a single piece of gear you got from a FP in anything other than more Flashpoints. You have to use the same players in the party as when you got it, too, so that it doesn't benefit people who weren't there when it dropped.

 

That was sarcasm, in case you didn't notice. Upgrades are upgrades whether they're for you or a companion. Both are valid upgrade paths, whether you choose to believe it or not. As I've stated several times, your approval isn't required for my character's progression.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Eldren

[KippTabor]

All those words just to put forth another defective argument. Imagine that.

[Lotep]

Hi I'm Ed and I'm solo game challenged. I need FP/instance loot on my companion to function at all really.

 

Epics on my companion may allow me to finish my dailies 10 seconds faster...and they look really pretty.

 

The rumor that other "real" people play this game is a lie.

 

/sarcasm off

 

Get a grip, let people upgrade their primary avatar and learn to play your class during solo sessions.

[KippTabor]

Hi I'm Ed and I'm solo game challenged. I need FP/instance loot on my companion to function at all really.

 

Epics on my companion may allow me to finish my dailies 10 seconds faster...and they look really pretty.

 

The rumor that other "real" people play this game is a lie.

 

/sarcasm off

 

Get a grip, let people upgrade their primary avatar and learn to play your class during solo sessions.

 

I have a hunch that at least some of these people don't actually loot for their companions as they claim. I think that playing Devil's Advocate on forums (no matter how illogical their arguments are) is just too tempting for some folks when they are shielded by internet anonymity. The alternative, that they actually don't get it, is just a bit too far-fetched for this cat.

[profaneascension]

1. Are you only going to use that drop in group content?

 

I addressed this point in my last post: one page back, third last post. The fact is, a piece of gear worn on a player character benefits that character in all situations, whereas a piece of gear given to a companion is only useful when that companion is in play. That is a clear priority for the player character in my mind---a greater need, if you will.

 

My point is that there must be a line drawn between Need and Greed, and a priority of needfulness established; otherwise, anyone can roll Need on anything, since we all have five different companions. To me, there is not a shred of doubt as to who comes first.

[Uruare]

The whole rolling for loot is a tired old leave-over from the days when people played tabletop games as their social RPG games, 'cause MMO's didn't exist.

 

Seriously, I hate to use DDO as an example of much, but the way they do loot is perfect: Box at the end of the dungeon that's all yours.

 

Rolling...yeah, I've seen arguments for it about how it 'adds to the excitement' of loot.

 

I'll invite anybody with that or a similar opinion to turn it sideways and stuff it up their nose; if I or many wanted that kind of 'excitement', we'd be playing in traffic for giggles and seeing how long it takes to get zapped to death by repeatedly sticking forks in outlsets as well.

 

It just isn't fun. Especially in raids. You should get something worth your while when you raid...but, of course, you seldom do. Oh WOWEE, I finally got the BOOTS i've been raiding for three months for!!!!

 

That isn't exciting; it's F'ing pathetic. Hugely over-emphasized importance on gear you'll be vendor trashing just as soon as better is available anyway.

 

Oh, and all you toads that roll on the crafting components we have to raid to get and then go 'what does it do? how much can I sell this for?' can die in a fire. You can sell it for one kick to the groin and stick in the eye.

 

Yeah, rolling sure is 'exciting'. I wish like all get-out these MMO developers would drop it already. We're not all gambling addicts. Some, perhaps many, of us would be much happier if we knew we were going to get something worthwhile rather than a bleepedy bleeping frakking bleep of a lottery ticket.

 

/rage

Edited January 11, 2012 by Uruare

[divinedoom]

For all the people who present the argument that gear from group content should only go to the players (and not their companions) who were in the group content, you should ask yourselves a simple question:

 

1. Are you only going to use that drop in group content?

 

If you use it even once while you're out in the world, whether leveling or doing a level-cap daily, your argument falls apart. You make claims that someone rolling Need on gear for their companion is cheating someone in the group out of something, when the reality is you, all 4/8/16 of you, equally contributed in downing the boss that dropped the gear. You aren't in there to gear up other players, you aren't in there to intentionally sacrifice your own gear progression so another player can upgrade themselves. You cooperate to down the boss, and your cooperation ends when a piece of loot you want shows up. You start cooperating again when the group decides it wants to down more bosses. After it's done, and you're back out in the world, that loot you received doesn't benefit that group anymore. It benefits you, and it benefits only you. So the "group contribution/group distribution" argument simply doesn't hold water. That loot only benefits one player, and that's the one who won the roll on it.

 

From earlier in this thread, since it blossomed to 40 pages while I was busy working today:

 

 

Unnecessary hyperbole that doesn't actually make a logical argument.

 

MMOs are all about cooperation. If you wanted to just play with yourself and your companions then there are better and cheaper single-player games out there. And when you join a group, it is pretty much a given that you are there to cooperate with all these other people towards a common goal.

Yes, and that common goal is loot that drops from bosses. But that loot only goes to one player at a time. The group doesn't benefit from it unless it's non-slotted gear that the player immediately equips. Even then, the group only benefits from the upgrade for the length of that content. Once the party breaks up, that loot is right back to benefitting one, and only one, person: the player who won the roll. So your attempt to make an ad populum appeal falls apart.

 

And that extends to the loot because that never would have dropped just for you. It dropped for your group. It did not exist in a vacuum and all of a sudden you just stop cooperating when it comes to the rewards that the group earned. That's just being selfish. When you roll Need for a companion you're saying that noone else in the group matters except you.

That loot dropped because of the group, it did not drop for the group, and that's an important distinction. You aren't going to hand out copies of the loot: one piece drops, and it only goes to one person: the player who won the roll. When you roll Need for a companion, you aren't saying no one else in the group matters besides you, you're saying that piece is an upgrade for your character, which includes your companion.

 

Using your logic, no piece of loot should ever go to any player, because once that group breaks up, it's no longer the "group's" loot. It's benefitting one player, and one player only.

 

 

Only you can control your gaming experience. If you wind up in a party with a person or people who you don't like playing with, you can put them on /ignore and leave the group. If this is something that makes you not want to play as much, that's your choice, and impetus for it lies solely with you, not with others. Take responsibility for your own actions.

 

 

You think if an orange piece drops that it's an immediate performance gain? Most of the time, it doesn't have mods in it, meaning no one's going to bother equipping it until they get to a GTN node and acquire some mods, or have a crafter friend make them some. You say if someone rolls on something for their companion over a player they're cheating every group that person will ever join, I say look at the logical conclusion of your statement: any time any single player gets a piece of gear another player in their group wanted, they're "cheating that player's future groups from the performance gain".

 

 

You're starting to sound like a proponent of Socialism: "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." I don't say that because I helped a group down something that everything that drops in the FP or Op should be mine. I do, however, say that my right to roll on something for my companion's upgrade is equal to a player's right to roll on something for their character. We both contributed, we both see a need for a given piece, we both roll Need on it, and an impartial, RNG-based system decides who gets it. Nothing could be less partial!

 

I'm not in a Flashpoint to help the other players' future groups. I'm in a Flashpoint to get upgrades and see content. I cooperate with those players to the extent required to have a chance (not a guarantee) at upgrades. Once the group is done, unless it's a guild run (in which case this particular discussion is moot), I won't be grouping with those players again on anything resembling a regular level. They don't benefit from me getting upgrades, I don't benefit from them getting upgrades, and ultimately, we are playing this game for our own benefit. Don't fool yourself into thinking differently.

 

 

This, right here, is blatant socialism. This game isn't about giving to others. This game is about cooperating with others so each individual has a better chance of meeting their individual goals. If you're truly altruistic enough to put in time, effort, and repair bill costs for the sole reason of seeing someone else of your level and not in your guild to get gear, more power to you. I would guess you're in a vast, vast minority.

 

Good community comes from people playing nice with each other, and being polite to each other. But there are limits to all things, and the instant people are so polite to others that their own needs aren't met, they've moved from "being polite" to "being taken advantage of", and they have no one to blame but themselves for not standing up and saying "I need this." It would be beneficial for you to understand that no individual player requires other players' approval to gear up their character or their companions. It doesn't even matter that you can gear up the companion via GTN purchases or quest rewards; maybe the proper upgrade hasn't dropped in a quest reward, or maybe you had to choose something else when it was an option. Maybe you don't want to, or can't afford to, spend money on the GTN for a companion upgrade, but you do have the time to run a Flashpoint or two for the chance at upgrades. Whatever it is, you put in equal effort, you have equal right to stake a claim to any rewards from that effort, since rewards aren't handed out to every player with every boss death. It doesn't mean you're going to get something, but you have a better chance of getting something if you click the button than you do by passing or choosing an option that allows a different player to take priority over you.

 

 

Of course you should participate in the community. This doesn't mean you forego all ability to upgrade yourself while you're doing so. On a high population server, many people won't see every person again they grouped with while leveling. If they do, their performance is likely to be remembered a lot more than them having won a piece of gear for their companion while people were busy leveling. Once you're in Operations and you start to see a lot more people a lot more often, it's a moot point anyway, as you have no choice over loot distribution. The system distributes the loot for you.

 

And if you're really worried about someone holding a grudge against you for a long time over something that happened in the game, I would point out that you should at that point be more worried about their general emotional maturity than anything relating directly to the game.

 

 

If you want evidence that BioWare considers companions to be an integral part of your character, all I'd need to point out is the reality that you can't successfully progress your storyline to 50th level and its conclusion without the use of your companions. I can remember a quest I was doing at the end of the Taris planetary arc that made use of all my companions as an integral part of conversation options and cutscenes. It bore a striking resemblance to the final mission for Commander Shepard in Mass Effect 2, where who you chose to do what had a meaningful impact on how you won the game, and whether some even survived. I don't see BioWare permanently killing our companions in this game, but the mechanic remains the same. Even outside that planetary story arc, your companions are required while leveling on just about every character. If you're a damage dealer, you're going to need a healing companion (because medpacks have a cooldown) to keep you alive, or a tanking companion to keep the mobs off you while you do your thing. If you're a tank, you're going to need damage dealers so you aren't dealing with 10-minute trash fights. On and on. Companions are a very integral part of this game, and if they aren't geared appropriately for the level of content you're doing, your performance, and in some cases ability to complete the content at all, is severely impacted.

 

 

 

Here you're just attempting to lay a moralistic judgment on an amoral activity. I choose to ask out of courtesy, but at no point do I ever think I am required to ask.

 

 

 

I have a hard time taking your position seriously when you already attempt to set up a false dichotomy by claiming that the people who support your perspective are being logical, while inferring that your opposition is summarily incapable of the same. This said, I'll bite.

 

 

It doesn't matter. The loot that drops in that FP is going to be used exponentially more often outside that group than it is inside it. Each individual player is in there to have a shot at better upgrades for themselves. They aren't in there to gear you, or other players in the group, up. They're willing to help do so, but not at their own expense. They aren't asking for guaranteed loot, they're just asking for an equal shot at any drops they want, and are willing to put in personal time to have that shot.

 

 

You're making an absolute statement without the provision of any absolute, unquestionable data to back it up. Thus, the best you can say is you think such players are being selfish. It doesn't objectively mean they're being so. Either way, as long as that heavy armor piece in your example doesn't have a class requirement on it that would prevent your companion from using it, you rolling Need on it is just as valid as the tank doing the same: you both assisted in downing the boss, you both have a right to stake a claim to gear that you can make use of.

 

 

Re: the irking comment, your approval isn't required, nor is it courted, by me. If someone else in a party gets an ugprade, I always congratulate them, even if they beat my roll to get it. I don't care if they're going to wear it or their companion is, the end result is that player just got an upgrade that improves their gaming experience, which is what we're all in there for. I'm not going to intentionally limit my gaming experience's enjoyment to satisfy someone else's loot priority perspective.

 

 

Yes, we all have companions. All of them need gear. Practically speaking most players aren't bothering to gear up more than one or two of those companions. I'm playing a Marauder and use Jaesa most of the time. When her damage output and mine can't down something, I pull out Quinn, and usually get it done. I haven't used Vette since I got Quinn, and I haven't used Pierce or Broonmark at all, nor do I have plans to.

 

The reality of every player having companions, all of whom need upgrades just the same as the player's character, shows me that the NBG system doesn't fit this particular game very well, and something much broader like Roll/Pass would make more sense. It doesn't make sense to include a third option for companions, because if it's better than Greed and less than Need, then "Companion" becomes the new Greed so people can improve their overall chances. If it's equal to Greed, it's pointless to have the secondary distinction save to facilitate not communicating with the others in your group about your intentions for use of the item, which is ultimately none of their business anyway. There are a lot more valid uses for gear in this game than in previous MMOs. Seems the most impartial way to handle distribution, and to preemptively head off all the complaints, is to just have Roll/Pass.

 

 

 

Sure, let's do that. We'll do that if you agree to never once use a single piece of gear you got from a FP in anything other than more Flashpoints. You have to use the same players in the party as when you got it, too, so that it doesn't benefit people who weren't there when it dropped.

 

That was sarcasm, in case you didn't notice. Upgrades are upgrades whether they're for you or a companion. Both are valid upgrade paths, whether you choose to believe it or not. As I've stated several times, your approval isn't required for my character's progression.

 

so basically I should be allowed to need everything once i get all my companions because one of them is bound to need it so what's the point of a greed option?

[ryancwn]

 

so basically I should be allowed to need everything once i get all my companions because one of them is bound to need it so what's the point of a greed option?

 

If you have read. You roll need on what you need. You roll greed on what dim not needed. Your statement indicate that you roll need just because you can and greed because you don't want to.

 

Its about honesty to yourself and you don't need a system or other people to tell you what you 'CAN' need.

 

Also, that statement also indicate you don't trust other player on their judgement of what is need and what isn't needed. NBG establish base on community trust and honesty, and if you can't do that. Don't use need before greed.

Edited January 11, 2012 by ryancwn

[Jessik]

Hmm... I don't know. I can't really see a problem with needing for a companion ONLY if nobody else in the group needs that item. If it's going to get disassembled or its a green nobody wants, go ahead. Anything else though, hands off and if you roll you should just stop and go re evaluate your life.

[Catch_TwentyTwo]

Unfortunetly for me it was the last boss. It's a douche bag move that I have seen before in other MMOs. There is no recourse when they decide to dick you on the last boss other then to spam in general chat that they are a ninja looting douch.

 

Laying ground rules every time you start an instance is neither practical nor needed since the consencus of the comunity is not to role need on items you can't use.

 

So it's OK for you to break GAME rules just because you can't be bothered to establish loot rules...

 

Concensus of the community means nothing. The game rules state that they are entitled to roll on the item; until that changes, you leave yourself open to sanction if they report you for harrassment.

 

/justsayin...