An attempt to talk about endgame rationally.

[Oogtug]

Not really, the amount of money they need to keep up the voice acting for everything (unless they cut the voice acting some) will mean they need as many subs as possible.

 

 

I think you both underestimate the resiliency of many of these complaining and currently 'non-playing' customers have. I've been around MMO's long enough to know that a lot of them may stay away, but a lot of them will return. They'll rush through the new content, complain then quit again and repeat.

 

I also know that you fail to realize just how small of a minority the people fielding these complaints are. Being vocal doesn't make them correct, nor does it make them a majority and it certainly doesn't make them a priority.

 

 

The average user will extend past the free month to get to level 50 alone, more then likely. MMORPG's are a very fluid playerbase with people coming and going at a fairly regular interval and often it's the community more then anything that determines the resiliency of it's playerbase.

 

 

Voice acting is relatively cheap as far as their ongoing costs, server maintenance and expansion far outstrips it. And as well the business model for a release like this is certainly one looking at years of potential red before they hit the green, and EA is large enough and willing enough to accept that.

 

 

I'll be fielding uneducated thoughtless comments all week for all the people whose brains are too clouded to think before they speak.

[TheFugitive]

I am of the "fanboy" camp here, however, I'm not quite as feral as many of you guys are, so I'm going to try to lay out a reasonable case for the state of endgame right now, acknowledging my opponent's position.

 

(pssst. this is how grown ups argue. you should try it sometime.)

 

From what i have gathered, the issue being discussed is: bugs in endgame which make it largely unplayable and difficult to enjoy.

 

The two sides, to my understanding, are:

 

1: its an mmorpg launch, you can't expect things to all work, furthermore, as the majority of the player base is not pursuing endgame right now, it is understandably not high on bio-ware's priority list. Compare with launch of every successful mmorpg to date.

 

2: The game advertised operations, and they don't work. This is false advertising. I don't care if other mmorpgs have this same failing. If i don't pay them, then i'm not supporting this callous attitude.

 

I am a member of camp 1, and here's my explanation.

 

Demanding a game work as advertised is within your rights, however, in my experience all ambitious games which i have found the most enjoyment out of have had a lot of bugs at launch. This isn't just the mmorpg genre. Elder Scrolls games, Planescape: Torment, Trokia's Arcanum, Fallout: New Vegas, and this game all come to mind. I have more ability to stand bugs the more the game is trying to accomplish. If it mostly accomplishes alot, then I'm pretty happy, especially if the company seems to be taking an aggressive stance on fixing the bugs.

 

Sure, it sucks that the game sometimes feels like i'm playing beta, but really, its a bioware game, and bioware games, ever since the days they worked with interplay and the developers who went on to make obsidian (the black isle era), have always launched with bugs. I'm not dissapointed, this follows the formula I expected. I would share your opinion if the game did not do so many things I really like,and if their goals with the game were not as ambitious as they are.

 

You may not share my opinion, and I respect that. Hey, this type of thing isn't for everyone.

 

Like yourself (I'm guessing) I've been played mmos and games for many years, so I'm definitely in the "give it some time" camp, i don't expect a mmo to launch with every feature that every player wants.

 

That said, i also understand and respect others opinions, or at least, try too. It's like marmite, some will love ToR others will not, the question is which of these end up with biggest percentage.

 

I'm here for the long haul, so I'll hang around and see how it goes, I'm optimistic, even after playing so many mmo's that crashed after launch, i think ToR will be around for quite some time, just my opinion though, not fact.

[Daeada]

Ask yourself that if a car company spent 4 to six years telling everyone about how awesome their upcoming model is and when it comes out and you drive it the tires fall off the engine explodes on a DAILY basis the radio doesnt work sometimes the gas tank leaks, it only reaches a top speed of 60 miles per hour. How would you feel?.

 

This analogy only works if we are under the assumption that EVERY car released to the market has a similar amount of problems. Let's compare apples to apples, please.

[artilleryshell]

 

The best thing to do is to ignore the troll posts, nod attentively at the ones that have legitimate points and understand that people may not be having a good of a time as you might be.

 

Sorry if this seems out of the blue but I see a lot of posts from people trying to passively reaffirm themselves that they aren't wasting their time on a dying MMO. Chill, its not going anwhere.

My actual motivation was to try to allow this argument to be civil, as the last time this thread went up, it deteriorated into some guy defending the game insulting everyone who disagreed with him.

 

Also,most of the trolls append to be defenders of the game. as evidenced below:

 

Sorry but the kids who rushed to 50, cried about lack of end-game content, and then threatened to quit SWTOR aren't going to make or break this game.

 

But if those kids did leave, then the SWTOR community would be much better off.

 

Stop insulting people, dude.

Edited January 8, 2012 by artilleryshell

[BobTheTeepo]

While it might be efficient for the industry, how does that make it ideal for the customer? I know how much my money is worth to me, and you are right I will likely never purchase anther MMO at launch. I will also likely never give EA another dollar of my money. If enough people decide to do that, then maybe next time he developer will decide to act to benefit the customer instead of acting to cash in on the xmas market.

 

Perhaps it's most convenient for the customer, but here are the options:

 

A) Withhold the content until they THINK it's ready, when it'll likely still be bugged because you need to test content on a massive scale.

 

B) Put it out early in an attempt to make it ready quicker.

 

In the end, putting the content out there makes fixing the bugs quicker and easier. Maybe it makes the customers angry. But in the end overall it better serves the customer, as they can fix the issues and get the content out quicker.

[kalexkhan]

Great post.

 

Fun.

 

It's the key feeling people have that allows them to tolerate more bugs, and more shortcomings at end game.

 

The more fun you are having, the less likely these things will really bug you, if it's not that enjoyable, these start to get under your skin.

[TheHauntingBard]

Right here is the catch with end game, it will be a bit of a long post so with bare with me.

Bioware went the horrible route Blizzard set out in WOTLK.

 

 

Blizzards model: For most raids you had to unlock the modes.

 

Progression: Normal mode- Hard mode - Normal mode raid - Hard mode raid

(Note pre WOTLK there where only heroic instances no heroic raids, these raids where hard enough on their own)

 

They tend to add more mechanics to the hard mode but a lot of it is the same thing.

In raids the better designed bosses become rather different.

Still it's the same content, same skin.

 

Ulduar was an instance in WOW that was exceptional since the hard modes made the fight completely different, you also unlocked them during the fight or right before by not killing certain mini bosses that buffed the boss.

 

 

Biowares model:

 

 

Biowares model is very similar, with a difference that you can do some hard modes

flash points (not sure about raids) with out having to unlock them.

How ever Bioware doesn't add new mechanics, bosses hit harder and have enrage timers that's it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Basically Bioware wants to have a chunk out of the other mmo's raiders.

They also want to follow the good old carrot on a stick method with this.

You get better gear and with better gear you can finish harder modes.

 

So what is the main flaw in releasing SWTOR with operations and flash points?

Well I can point them out but a short answer would be.

 

They should not have released them.

 

 

1: Every hard mode flash point I've done has been utterly bugged.

Just a few examples

 

- Boss stops dropping health, he just glitches out and kills you

- Trash mobs re spawning out of thin air.

- People getting kicked out of the instance during cut scenes.

- Chest doesn't drop loot after a 2 hour instance

- Boss abilities bug out

- Bosses can be exploited left and right.

- Bosses abilities aren't tuned well.

- Enrage timer isn't tuned well forcing you to skip their mechanics to beat it.

 

2: Instead of making harder instances they simply reskin, it's very dull.

Slap nightmare mode on it and let the boss hit a bit harder and done.

The fact that the boss is still the same tank and spank boss from 30 levels ago is ignored.

 

3: Instances contain a lot of time sinks, hordes of trash mobs.

They aren't hard just so many.

 

4: Normal modes bug out as well but a bit less.

 

5: Operations are bugged beyond believe according to the raiders.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Bottom line is when you offer content it should not be this bugged.

A few bugged bosses are acceptable if fixed with in a few weeks.

But this is going above and beyond a 'few' minor bugs.

 

I like the story but I pay for end game so to say, that's why I play a MMO.

This is also a big part of the game and something they advertised.

 

When they allow me to go into those hard modes and raids I kind of expect it to work 90%.

But this isn't even reaching 50%, it's a mess.

 

 

Edit:

 

Now people say 'give it more time' and 'but wow'.

But I ask you why release an obviously bugged hard mode?

 

Yes I am aware Blizzard for example released over tuned bosses and bugged end bosses.

But they fixed them pretty fast, only the most hardcore players ever saw them in that form.

 

Also those bosses had a lot more complex mechanics than SWTOR.

Now MC is a nice example people give, the last boss was bugged.

 

But you know what, that wasn't accepted either people got pissed off and they fixed it.

Most of all just because Blizzard delivered some poor content doesn't mean Bioware should copy that.

Edited January 8, 2012 by TheHauntingBard

[BobTheTeepo]

So, because there's no physical danger, only a financial one, it's ok for an incomplete product to be released to market?

 

Is ANY MMO complete? Name one.

 

MMOs are never complete, until they die. This game has some errors, yes, but those errors will be fixed in time. Bioware has already demonstrated they're getting on top of things rather quickly.

 

There's no way they can release a bug free MMO. It may surprise you to know this, but MOST MMOs have more bugs than this one. You may not like it, but it is the way it is, and if people simply had patience, they'd find these issues don't *USUALLY* last for longer than 1-2 months. The bugs anyway.

[Enako]

actually most of the trolls append to be defenders of the game. as evidenced below:

 

Stop insulting people, dude.

 

actually, most of the rational people who actually take the time to reply to all this crapola that is continually being pumped out by ex wow refugees how swtor should change things because it is not wow, how there should be 'hardcore progression grind' and be an 'endgame' that involves repeating the same jacked up raid for 20 times each like hapless idiots (you wouldnt do things like these if they paid you at work in real life) and 'hey i am stuck on the grass on coordinates 1834,347 - this game is groken !' type of crapola complaints,

 

rational people just get tired of rationally replying to crap, and respond appropriately.

[Bhigtimm]

No there is fair amount of trolling on the hate side of the equation as well. But its understandable. I've been a Star Wars fan for years, since I saw a new hope in 1978. And I'm more angry at what this game has done to an IP that love than I was at what GL did to the franchise when he release Episodes 1-3. I care about the franchise and i think this release does it a disservices.

[Daeada]

No there is fair amount of trolling on the hate side of the equation as well. But its understandable. I've been a Star Wars fan for years, since I saw a new hope in 1978. And I'm more angry at what this game has done to an IP that love than I was at what GL did to the franchise when he release Episodes 1-3. I care about the franchise and i think this release does it a disservices.

 

How does this game in particular harm the IP more than, say, the Christmas Special? OR any of the other games out there, most of which are MUCH worse games than this?

 

EDIT: I understand these are your opinions, but I would like to hear some facts so I can understand the other side a bit better.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Daeada

[artilleryshell]

actually, most of the rational people who actually take the time to reply to all this crapola that is continually being pumped out by ex wow refugees how swtor should change things because it is not wow, how there should be 'hardcore progression grind' and be an 'endgame' that involves repeating the same jacked up raid for 20 times each like hapless idiots (you wouldnt do things like these if they paid you at work in real life) and 'hey i am stuck on the grass on coordinates 1834,347 - this game is groken !' type of crapola complaints,

 

rational people just get tired of rationally replying to crap, and respond appropriately.

 

you could skip this entire process and just disagree.

You don't have to start losing sleep over it. Honest.

[Heimskringla]

It's an MMO. If you've ever played an MMO at launch, you know what to expect as far as bugs and end-game content.

 

There will be bugs.

 

There will not be the same amount of end-game content as games that have been out for 12 years (e.g. EQ).

 

There will not be the same polish or value-added features as a game that has been out for years.

 

Bugs will get fixed.

 

Content will be added.

 

Features will be added.

 

Yes, it's always frustrating.

 

 

The Star Trek Online launch was bad, and there wasn't much content. Less than 50 hours /played to level cap. I have close to 200 hours on my main in TOR and I'm still level 42.... and there's still plenty to do before hitting 50.

[artilleryshell]

 

 

The Star Trek Online launch was bad, and there wasn't much content. Less than 50 hours /played to level cap. I have close to 200 hours on my main in TOR and I'm still level 42.... and there's still plenty to do before hitting 50.

 

I would say comparing this to one of the worst mmorpgs in existance is probably not the best way to convince people the game is good.

[Kaizez]

i have played near all the big mmo and always made a big mistake rushing to max level to find a lack of content. i was always moving to the next mmo never really happy. i have not done it for the first time and i am enjoying the game alot.

 

so i have not found any issues yet and i am at lvl 40. i expected content to be an issue at 50 due to a new game. i have been sensible and made sure i enjoy and not get to the point of having to complain about it, when it would only be my own fault if i had rushed through skipping all the storyline.

[Mashy]

Not really, the amount of money they need to keep up the voice acting for everything (unless they cut the voice acting some) will mean they need as many subs as possible.

 

Well you guys smashed to 50 and didn't listen to the VO anyways. There's more than enough cash from the rest of us who actually are enjoying it to make the grade. Toddle off now and auto accept your wow quests.

[kalexkhan]

actually, most of the rational people who actually take the time to reply to all this crapola that is continually being pumped out by ex wow refugees how swtor should change things because it is not wow, how there should be 'hardcore progression grind' and be an 'endgame' that involves repeating the same jacked up raid for 20 times each like hapless idiots (you wouldnt do things like these if they paid you at work in real life) and 'hey i am stuck on the grass on coordinates 1834,347 - this game is groken !' type of crapola complaints,

 

rational people just get tired of rationally replying to crap, and respond appropriately.

 

Rationale people also know its idiotic to fight the notion all those ex wow refugees are going to get their way.

 

Theirs nothing in this game at the top down level that really suggests otherwise. Endgame is not for the story fans, it's for the wow fans.

 

Dual spec, dungeon finder, mods, raid content etc.. It's all coming. Wow 2.0, that's not a bad thing depending solely on how tired of wow you are or not.

[BobTheTeepo]

I would say comparing this to one of the worst mmorpgs in existance is probably not the best way to convince people the game is good.

 

No, but that's how MMOs work. 12sky2 released with NO endgame content except PvP. Vindictus released with virtually no endgame content at all, raids weren't really difficult at all, you could solo some, not to mention it was easy to hit cap. SUN had some decent end game content but it's a limited quantity (you do stuff called AC and once you hit 100% in each area it's over, and it's SUPER tedious).

 

MMOs -- good and bad -- simply do not release in a good state. They're all buggy, they're all lacking in a LOT of areas, they all lack the polished feel, and as an MMO vet, I can safely say this launch is one of the better ones.

[kalexkhan]

Well you guys smashed to 50 and didn't listen to the VO anyways. There's more than enough cash from the rest of us who actually are enjoying it to make the grade. Toddle off now and auto accept your wow quests.

 

Dude, the whole "skipped the vo" thing kinda got old after the first week.

 

The story is not composed of hundreds Or thousands of hours so much that people are watching them 75 percent of their playtime.

 

It's very realistic for people who watched all their crap were hitting 50 a week or 2 ago.

 

 

Let it go....

[Blurble]

 

1: its an mmorpg launch, you can't expect things to all work, furthermore, as the majority of the player base is not pursuing endgame right now, it is understandably not high on bio-ware's priority list. Compare with launch of every successful mmorpg to date.

 

If you pay for a product it is reasonable to expect it to work.

[Nisha_Fang]

OP is right in this case. Cars are a necessity in this day and age, and any failure is fatal. If a game does not live up to your expectations then -- at worst -- you wasted 50-150 dollars. A bit different then dying, not being able to go to work, and wasting however many thousands of dollars the car costed.

 

Cars are NOT a necessity !

 

Any failure is NOT fatal !

 

Wasting $100 on a game is NOT fun !

 

Selling 1 car for $20.000 is no different then selling a game for $100 to 200 people !

 

Both are products, both need to work. Only difference is that we expect a car to work as intended and software may have bugs and we say, give them time it is a new game, just released. Which nowadays is flat out wrong, especially for games who exceeds 80mil development costs!!!

 

Think before you write on forums !

[Bhigtimm]

How does this game in particular harm the IP more than, say, the Christmas Special? OR any of the other games out there, most of which are MUCH worse games than this?

 

EDIT: I understand these are your opinions, but I would like to hear some facts so I can understand the other side a bit better.

 

Well aside from all the lore inconsistencies, yes I am that much of a geek, my major issue is that a SWTOR MMO, the only likely for the forseeable future, is this bad. I believe this game is going to wither and that content will stop coming out and that it will be another 10 years before there is another chance for someone to "get it right". Each story is a great single player story, but for me this game does not feel like an MMO, more like KOTOR 3.1 - 3.8. So I guess its not so much harm to the IP as it is wasting the IPs potential to create a really living world.

 

Now I will grant I'm not the average hate machine, on the forums. I have a lot of problem with the engine, with the ui, with the quality at launch, and I won't re-up for those reasons. The reason i am angry, is because I didn't play the other bad Star Wars Games, but I was told this would be a Star Wars MMO, I bought the game really looking forward to playing a great Star Wars MMO and I don't personally feel that that is what was delivered.

[artilleryshell]

If you pay for a product it is reasonable to expect it to work.

 

Go on, keep reading...

[Daeada]

Both are products, both need to work. Only difference is that we expect a car to work as intended and software may have bugs and we say, give them time it is a new game, just released. Which nowadays is flat out wrong, especially for games who exceeds 80mil development costs!!!

 

Actually, I would argue that pre-internet, it was more important to release a bug free game than it is now. Being able to patch on the fly and distribute it for such minimal cost has been a great boon to the gaming industry. It does lead to buggy games getting released, sure, but it also leads to them getting fixed rather quickly, and for free.

[TheFugitive]

Well you guys smashed to 50 and didn't listen to the VO anyways. There's more than enough cash from the rest of us who actually are enjoying it to make the grade. Toddle off now and auto accept your wow quests.

 

Not bashing on you mashy but, alot of players are 50 now, including myself and i did not skip VO, i also explored alot and took my time doing things like crafting an such.

 

And i wasen't on 24/7.

 

Even so, I'm enjoying a 2nd playthrough as a trooper, not bored of the game in the slightest, but everyone is different, some were probably bored in the first few days, even if game was polished to perfection, some people would still hate/leave it.