Solution to dual-spec requests?

[STD_Skindancer]

Dual speccing gave more options to a smaller number of players. Hence that smaller group of players could become more insular due to the new options opened to them.

 

I am not saying I hate it, there are pros to it, there are thing I like about it. Me personally though? I prefer single-spec; always have (started on MUDs then EQ for 6+ years) and honestly always will.

 

For me, I was "brought up" in this genre that a Tank was a Tank was a Tank, etc.

 

some of us like to PVE and PVP. why should i not get to enjoy both because your line of thinking is out dated?

[Jeweledleah]

Something else to consider is many of the anti people may be mad because they can't find a tank or healer for the group. Too bad one DPS can just switch to heals.

 

Look, this isn't new ground Rift did it. And yes, as a matter of fact I did exclaim, we all did, about how CONVENIENT and innovative it was.

 

logic dictates that people who have trouble finding tanks or healers would actually welcome the dual spec.. seeing how it supposedly allows for more tanks and healers (which was already proven as mostly untrue. people who don't want to tank or heal, will not do so no matter how many specs you give them)

 

that said, due to nature of leveling in TOR, I'm seeing more people around leveling as healers, or tanks, healers especially, then in any other trinity based game that I've ever played.

 

multiple times already, I ended up in heroic quest groups that had 3 healers in them. few times, there was more then one tank (and I mean tank, not dps, taking up tanking role).

 

dual specs are not necessary. and this is not Rift. people need to adopt to each games particulars instead of trying to force the game into the mold they want. but wait, I forget, this attitude is not only common nowadays, but its not restricted to video games, never mind >_>

[Lethality]

Something else to consider is many of the anti people may be mad because they can't find a tank or healer for the group. Too bad one DPS can just switch to heals.

 

Look, this isn't new ground Rift did it. And yes, as a matter of fact I did exclaim, we all did, about how CONVENIENT and innovative it was.

 

And how's Rift working out? Yeah.

 

I'll ask it again - why stop at dual spec? Why not triple spec? Or how about unlimited spec, where you just pop open your talent tree and move points around anywhere, at any time for free?

 

Surely you must support this, because it's convenient. If not, why?

[Lethality]

some of us like to PVE and PVP. why should i not get to enjoy both because your line of thinking is out dated?

 

You shouldn't need different specs in PvE than you do in PvP. If you do, then it's bad design. And if you only THINK you do, then you should pay the price for wanting to operate on the fringe.

 

Which is what my solution proposes. It gives you what you want. Flexibility.

[DevonLoy]

Heres a bit of a change up to the OP's post that I think should make everyone happy in terms of Middle Ground.

 

Instead of it costing credits to respec like it is now (very expensive after a while) or people who get a stat bonus or whatever for not respecing (which people pointed out the flaws in right away, and i agree that that would fail after a while) But instead they could implement a full dual specing system that allowed you to respec whenever you want but it deducts a certain percentage of experience relative to how many times you respecced that week or even just a flat rate.

 

I think that this would be a very good practice as it wont be that much of a disadvantage to people who respec all the time but it will give just enough satisfaction to people who dont that theyll get just that bit of a head start

[dishyfruitcake]

Didnt wow teach you a lesson? Why do dps wait 40 min for a dungeon? Dual Spec did not change anything, to think so is foolish.

 

Those here who claim "I will heal, tank" wont - they will pick a second dps spec. People dont want to be responsible for their action, thats why they all pick dps. You cant change this by adding dual, triple, quadro or whatever spec.

Even with 5 specs, people will have 1 dps for CC, 1 dps for pvp, 1 dps for pve solo, 1 dps for pve group, 1 dps for big crits ...

 

Im still waiting for a reason why dual spec must be introduced, after 1 month you still didnt deliver any - guess there is none after all.

 

You need to stop. Dual-spec didnt create the "community" wow has. Easy Mode "Heroics" from Lich King did. DPS forgot how to CC and Focus Fire because the tanks and healers could keep up with any mistake and heal through constant aoe thrashing of the zone. Dual-spec just happened to come along at around the same time. Reasons have been presented throughout the thread. Opposing dual-spec may as well oppose any and all respecs. People DO have to be responsible for their actions, dps or otherwise, due to a game which often requires the coordination of the group through Crowd Control, attacking the correct target, making sure the tank has aggro...etc. In this game at the moment at least this is still required for success. Being able to dual spec allows those of us who do tank/heal to do something else once in awhile. People dps because it's fun to murder things, tanks and healers like to taste that meat too.

[Jeweledleah]

Heres a bit of a change up to the OP's post that I think should make everyone happy in terms of Middle Ground.

 

Instead of it costing credits to respec like it is now (very expensive after a while) or people who get a stat bonus or whatever for not respecing (which people pointed out the flaws in right away, and i agree that that would fail after a while) But instead they could implement a full dual specing system that allowed you to respec whenever you want but it deducts a certain percentage of experience relative to how many times you respecced that week or even just a flat rate.

 

I think that this would be a very good practice as it wont be that much of a disadvantage to people who respec all the time but it will give just enough satisfaction to people who dont that theyll get just that bit of a head start

 

so if you are at max level and want to respec for raid or pvp, it drops you bellow max level and now you have to put on your non lvl cap gear and go ahead and grind up some experience to catch back up to max?

 

sure.

 

should be enough of an incentive for people to make their spec choices wisely.

[DevonLoy]

so if you are at max level and want to respec for raid or pvp, it drops you bellow max level and now you have to put on your non lvl cap gear and go ahead and grind up some experience to catch back up to max?

 

sure.

 

should be enough of an incentive for people to make their spec choices wisely.

 

 

thats actually an excelent point (i completley forgot about that) but I suppose a solution to that would be to put the credit cost back in at endgame and re introduce the ex percentage when the cap gets raised. (especially because at endgame you usually dont spend as many credits on skills and other things besides crafting.

[STD_Skindancer]

You shouldn't need different specs in PvE than you do in PvP. If you do, then it's bad design. And if you only THINK you do, then you should pay the price for wanting to operate on the fringe.

 

Which is what my solution proposes. It gives you what you want. Flexibility.

 

i play a tank in both pvp and pve, but building a pvp tank talent setup is not the same as a pve setup. once wither gets its buff that was announced it might be worth having in pvp, right now its crap.

 

just because YOU dont mind being a gimp does not mean the rest of us are ok with it.

 

just to comment on your so called solution...it sucks. no one has a VALID reason to not have dual spec what so ever. im not going to level two assassins, one pvp and one pve, just because you are a bad player.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Averran
rude

[DaxRendar]

And how's Rift working out? Yeah.

 

I'll ask it again - why stop at dual spec? Why not triple spec? Or how about unlimited spec, where you just pop open your talent tree and move points around anywhere, at any time for free?

 

Surely you must support this, because it's convenient. If not, why?

 

Guild Wars actually used a system very much like that. Some of the most challenging content I've played in a multi-player game as well.

 

I still don't see how Dual-Spec hurts you or the game. I can easily see (and have experienced) how wanting to be the best Healer I can be for my group left me horribly disadvantaged in PvP (Instanced not World).

 

If I'm following you, you somehow think of multiple specs as an "entitlement" thing?

 

Bioware designed the game with multiple "Lobby Game" playmodes for endgame. If I'm correct, according to you I should be leveling 2-3 Scoundrel characters just so I can perform optimally in different aspects of the game with my friends? That I should not be able to have one of each AC on the Server my friends play on because "meaningful choices" are more important than enjoyment in a GAME?!?

 

At the very least "Content-aligned" specs should be allowed that are only accessible in certain game modes (limit it to "Default" and "PvP" if you prefer). I still think it's detrimental to a Trinity-based game, but I completely fail to see how being forced to choose between being effective when Healing for friends and being effective while PvPing is "interesting" or "fun" or "enjoyable"

[Lethality]

Heres a bit of a change up to the OP's post that I think should make everyone happy in terms of Middle Ground.

 

Instead of it costing credits to respec like it is now (very expensive after a while) or people who get a stat bonus or whatever for not respecing (which people pointed out the flaws in right away, and i agree that that would fail after a while) But instead they could implement a full dual specing system that allowed you to respec whenever you want but it deducts a certain percentage of experience relative to how many times you respecced that week or even just a flat rate.

 

I think that this would be a very good practice as it wont be that much of a disadvantage to people who respec all the time but it will give just enough satisfaction to people who dont that theyll get just that bit of a head start

 

Well, I applaud your input on the topic... at least it's working towards the topic of the thread - a solution!

 

Maybe that's key - tying it to other forms of character progression instead of relative power.

 

Experience is a good one, although has little meaning when players are at level cap which is when this would be most used. Perhaps it does other thing, like slows down other point gains such as social, valor, morality or legacy (though, I guess, those also could be maxed out at some point). I don't think you ever want to "take" anything away from users they've earned though.

 

So, good thoughts! Let's tie the solution to something other than power - make it progression. I am all for it.

[Lethality]

Guild Wars actually used a system very much like that. Some of the most challenging content I've played in a multi-player game as well.

 

I still don't see how Dual-Spec hurts you or the game. I can easily see (and have experienced) how wanting to be the best Healer I can be for my group left me horribly disadvantaged in PvP (Instanced not World).

 

If I'm following you, you somehow think of multiple specs as an "entitlement" thing?

 

Bioware designed the game with multiple "Lobby Game" playmodes for endgame. If I'm correct, according to you I should be leveling 2-3 Scoundrel characters just so I can perform optimally in different aspects of the game with my friends? That I should not be able to have one of each AC on the Server my friends play on because "meaningful choices" are more important than enjoyment in a GAME?!?

 

At the very least "Content-aligned" specs should be allowed that are only accessible in certain game modes (limit it to "Default" and "PvP" if you prefer). I still think it's detrimental to a Trinity-based game, but I completely fail to see how being forced to choose between being effective when Healing for friends and being effective while PvPing is "interesting" or "fun" or "enjoyable"

 

No, it's not an entitlement thing at all. It's staying true to the design of these games. This isn't Quake where anyone can do anything with any weapon at any time. This is rules-based combat with classes.

 

In reality, all specs ARE viable as designed. They really are. But you want to OPTIMIZE, and that's not unreasonable. It's the sign of good players. But if you want to exercise that to the extreme, then it should only seem natural you might have to deal with things the rest of the player base isn't, because you already are - by choice. A special condition to allow you to change specs is just part of that.

 

The biggest flaw is the decidedly different "gear" and "stats" for PvP vs. PvE. That's an error Blizzard made that I thought BioWare would dodge. No such luck. So that opens up a can of worms that feeds this problem to have multiple specs.

 

Being effective is possible with all specs. Being optimal is not, and that's the dividing line.

[Xukuth]

The biggest argument for dual specs is that generally healing/tanking make poor leveling specs.

 

this isn't the case in ToR. Healing spec, tank spec, DPS spec... they all level just as efficiently as you have a constant party member in the form of your companion.

 

Now, if you choose to say "But then I'm not REALLY soloing!" and don't want to use the companion for some reason, or ever group with people, well... that's your own problem, not BioWare's.

 

Wrong, I leveled both ways.. DPS Levels much faster and much easier. Throwing your entire theory out the window.

[STD_Skindancer]

No, it's not an entitlement thing at all. It's staying true to the design of these games. This isn't Quake where anyone can do anything with any weapon at any time. This is rules-based combat with classes.

 

In reality, all specs ARE viable as designed. They really are. But you want to OPTIMIZE, and that's not unreasonable. It's the sign of good players. But if you want to exercise that to the extreme, then it should only seem natural you might have to deal with things the rest of the player base isn't, because you already are - by choice. A special condition to allow you to change specs is just part of that.

 

The biggest flaw is the decidedly different "gear" and "stats" for PvP vs. PvE. That's an error Blizzard made that I thought BioWare would dodge. No such luck. So that opens up a can of worms that feeds this problem to have multiple specs.

 

Being effective is possible with all specs. Being optimal is not, and that's the dividing line.

 

 

so again, just because YOU like being a bad player the rest of us have to?

 

10th place ribbons might be ok for YOU, not the rest of us.

 

farmville is that way----->

[twisted_and_mean]

I fail to understand why dual-spec antagonists regard those who want more than one spec as lazy. Personally, I love tanking more than anything else. Partly because you play an extremely important role and partly because you get every one else running behind you and attack whatever you're attacking.

 

Anyways, sometimes it feels nice to raid as dps or heals because it feels like a totally different experience even done with the very same character. Same goes for PvP. In WoW I had three top level characters with 7 roles among them all. If it weren't for the dual spec I would have had to level 7 characters to get the same amount of fun out of the game. Guess what, that was not going to happen ever. I'm too mindful of how I spend my time.

 

The thing I'm getting at is that I'm against excessive grinding. If I liked it I'd have played Korean MMOs. Doing the very same quests for different ACs is fine, although quite tedious, but having to do this stuff for another talent tree just doesn't pay off. MMORPGs should be about the ever increasing amount of end-game content, not about grinding exp to level your characters.

[DaxRendar]

No, it's not an entitlement thing at all. It's staying true to the design of these games. This isn't Quake where anyone can do anything with any weapon at any time. This is rules-based combat with classes...

 

The biggest flaw is the decidedly different "gear" and "stats" for PvP vs. PvE. That's an error Blizzard made that I thought BioWare would dodge. No such luck. So that opens up a can of worms that feeds this problem to have multiple specs.

 

Being effective is possible with all specs. Being optimal is not, and that's the dividing line.

 

It is also an RPG with "Lobby Game" elements. I enjoy Healing in PvE. It is actually my preferred role, and yes I even level up as a Healer (much better experience in this game than taking my Resto Druid from 1-70 (at the time max level) in WoW.

 

But I *HATE* healing in PvP. It is more akin to "tanking" than "healing" as Healers tend to draw all the agro/get focus-fired/have to try to spend most all of their time healing themselves rather than supporting others. I still enjoy PvP though, as a damage dealer. Your "solution" forces me to (1) level 2 characters of the same AC for different game modes, preventing me from having one of each AC on my chosen server (2) not play a preferred role in a gameplay mode in order to participate in another.

 

That's not an "interesting" choice, it's a painful and detrimental one.

 

In some sense, when it comes to Ilum/Warfronts, SWTOR is like Quake - balanced, fun, and engaging PvP. Allowing a spec that is only active and available in that part of the game shouldn't bother you.

 

The other solution I proposed (which I'd be willing to do but most others wouldn't like) is for BW to take the 8 Characters per Server Limit out of the game. I actually would level multiple specs of the same AC on a server if I could still have at least one of each.

[Abye]

Rift drove respeccing to the extreme and everyone liked it. Having warrior and rogue trade tanking and dps roles between bosses was great fun with good players. Or my mage going mainhealer and letting the cleric do some dps.

 

Bad players were just bad, it didn't matter what role they played.

[Nanomancer]

NO

 

the solution is very simple....add dual spec because the people against it have horrible arguments to why its bad.

 

And those people can just not use the system if they are so against it.

 

But don't punish all because you don't want versatility and depth in a game.

[UnderatedNoob]

Really simple solution:

 

Put dual speccing into the game. RPers dont have to use it if they dont want to ruin their character immersion.

 

It's not only RPers. There are also people that don't want everything to be as convenient as possible; thus, ruining another game. (in their opinion of course)

[Caelrie]

No they haven't. Quite certain of it.

 

Funny, because you're wrong. It's been confirmed three different times. One of them was only a week ago.

[Caonimah]

It's not only RPers. There are also people that don't want everything to be as convenient as possible; thus, ruining another game. (in their opinion of course)

 

I addressed this in the other thread. People that enjoy a game thats archaic because they can suffer it doesn't make them better players that those that cant suffer it. It makes them masochists or ignorant to other games that have better mechanics and designs than the one they are playing.

 

It IS ultimately a sense of entitlement, that you are somehow better than the other person therefore you can impose on a person your will, even if its something that ultimately doesn't involve you. It happens in games and in real life, its human nature apparently.

[Caelrie]

It's not only RPers. There are also people that don't want everything to be as convenient as possible; thus, ruining another game. (in their opinion of course)

 

Those people are free to refuse to use the feature. It's an optional feature.

[Ainianu]

I initially was against Dual Spec purely because i did not see the 'need' for it... having come from Everquest where your raid role in a guild was defined from the moment you applied, your equipment and class defined that role and you 'had' to stick to it purely due to the mechanics... the concept of Dual Spec was quite alien to me.

 

Everquest had 54m raids and with that size of guild/raidforce you may be 1 or 2 short of key classes yet your likely to have enough even if just a few important players are unable to log in that day... your raid goes ahead still.

 

SWTOR has 8m and 16m operations. If your 1-2 tanks or healers short... you may simply be unable to perform that operation. 2 tanks down may be 0 tanks in total for example on a force that small.

 

Simply put the option to be able to fullfill a vital operation function in a pinch (since i would assume people would gear for their primary role, hence seconday spec role would be slightly less than optimal) would extremely important for the more casual raid/operation guilds out there.

 

If not for that issue i think i would be inclined against dual-spec, but as it stands i think it is quite important for end-game. (however if it never gets implemented i am sure operations can be saved by those who make tons of alts )

[Lethality]

NO

 

the solution is very simple....add dual spec because the people against it have horrible arguments to why its bad.

 

And those people can just not use the system if they are so against it.

 

But don't punish all because you don't want versatility and depth in a game.

 

If you meant to say "shallow, flavor of the month driven gameplay design" then, yes.

 

Playing any spec doesn't add depth. It removes it.

 

Tie re-speccing to other things, such as progression or abilities. Bonus for those who don't switch, no penalty for those that do.

[Caonimah]

"Shallow, flavor of the month" gameplay is already in this game, the only difference is you need to grind money once a day to do it. Thus its inconvenient and only benefits those that have the time and patience to actually do it.

 

Let me spin around your previous argument on the other direction. If they wanted players to actually be mindful of their decisions, why not lock them entirely to the first spec and refuse to provide a reset? Its much easier to believe that given the time, they would come out with a dual spec or switch to any spec anywhere thing. They just didn't have the time to implement it.