Sith Emperor vs Darth Sidious

[Wolfninjajedi]

Can we just let this go already?

[LadyKulvax]

Can we just let this go already?

 

[xxwolfbloodxx]

I thinks it's clear that if you consider post ROTJ EU that Sidious is more powerful. But if you throw out the post ROTJ eu the Sith emperor is more powerful. Disney already said that the post ROTJ EU is no longer cannon so i think that pretty much makes the Sith emperor the more powerful of the two.

[RaptorClown]

Sid had weaker oposition tbh, their goals were kinda diffrent as well. Vader himself probably would outmatch Sid if he wasnt crippled and broken. And can you imagine emperor dying Sid's way? LOL, like most pathetic deaths of all times

[StarMagus]

Keep in mind that this...

 

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

 

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

 

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

 

Does not match this...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw

 

Also note Anakin doesn't show up until after Mace Kicks Palpatine's butt in a light saber combat. So there is no point that Anakin could have been watching the entire thing and noting how fast they were moving.

 

Also at no point does anybody utter "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

 

It's like the person who wrote the book couldn't even be half bothered to watch the movie.

Edited December 9, 2013 by StarMagus

[Beniboybling]

Keep in mind that this...

 

Does not match this...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw

 

Also note Anakin doesn't show up until after Mace Kicks Palpatine's butt in a light saber combat. So there is no point that Anakin could have been watching the entire thing and noting how fast they were moving.

 

Also at no point does anybody utter "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

 

It's like the person who wrote the book couldn't even be half bothered to watch the movie.

I'm going to assume what your implying here is that we should therefore take Windu's handling of Sidious' lightning with a pinch of salt, to which I would retort that in specific terms of how Windu handled Sidious' lightning there are no contradictions. In the contrary Windu is clearly struggling with the intensity of the blast and cries out in pain several times. There is also this big blue glow about his face and its not too hard to believe he was choking on ozone.

 

Ultimately the novel is designed to complement the film, and elucidate on certain events that the film itself could not convey. The mechanics behind Vaapad and the actuality behind the duel between Sidious and Windu being one of them - and it would be foolish to dismiss that or even be suspicious of it because some dialogue and stage directions don't add up. Though I agree its kinda dumb, its as if the writers are desperate to make their novel original.

[StarMagus]

I'm saying there is enough difference in the novels and the movie to take them as completely separate things. I'm not saying one is better than the other, or if I think that which I feel are better, just that they are different.

 

In much the same way Spiderman 1,2, and 3 ((movies)), The Amazing Spiderman 1 and 2 ((movies)), and the Comic Book Spiderman are all technically about the same character, and all have origin stories and battles with some of the same people involved, but they are enough different that it's pointless to try to cross them with each other and claim that they are all parts of the exact same events and the like.

[Beniboybling]

I'm saying there is enough difference in the novels and the movie to take them as completely separate things. I'm not saying one is better than the other, or if I think that which I feel are better, just that they are different.

 

In much the same way Spiderman 1,2, and 3 ((movies)), The Amazing Spiderman 1 and 2 ((movies)), and the Comic Book Spiderman are all technically about the same character, and all have origin stories and battles with some of the same people involved, but they are enough different that it's pointless to try to cross them with each other and claim that they are all parts of the exact same events and the like.

That's exactly the case, to quote Leland Chee:

 

"There is one overall continuity."

 

There are no parallel universes or "alternate" events like in the Marvel franchise, its all one story. So everything that happens in the novel that does not happen not conflict with its superior counterpart i.e. the films, happened and are part of the overall Star Wars continuity - they are describing the exact same events.

 

But if they are describing the same events, why are they different? This is why:

 

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

 

...

 

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

 

Take from that what you will, but a comparison with the Marvel universe is far from accurate.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Beniboybling

[StarMagus]

If they want to do that they need to double check their writers. When they take events that are directly shown on the film and then screw up what people say, when they show up and the like, it makes any attempt to claim it's all one universe but with foggy windows as just being too lazy to make sure novels match the movies.

[Aurbere]

Keep in mind that this...

 

 

 

Does not match this...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw

 

Also note Anakin doesn't show up until after Mace Kicks Palpatine's butt in a light saber combat. So there is no point that Anakin could have been watching the entire thing and noting how fast they were moving.

 

Also at no point does anybody utter "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

 

It's like the person who wrote the book couldn't even be half bothered to watch the movie.

 

So I guess Plo Koon's a mute, too, huh?

[StarMagus]

So I guess Plo Koon's a mute, too, huh?

 

I don't remember in part of the movie showing that he couldn't talk. That said if the novels suddenly decided to have Kit go into a huge debate before the fight with the Emp started about the morality of arresting him and Galactic law I'd also point it out as a.. did the writer bother to watch the movie?!?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Can we just stop this already? This has been debated to death. Edited December 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[StarMagus]

Can we just stop this already? This has been debated to death.

 

I'm thinking the answer is no. However if you don't want to be part of the conversation because you aren't interested in it, you can just stop reading the thread. Right?

[Aurbere]

I don't remember in part of the movie showing that he couldn't talk. That said if the novels suddenly decided to have Kit go into a huge debate before the fight with the Emp started about the morality of arresting him and Galactic law I'd also point it out as a.. did the writer bother to watch the movie?!?

 

[Beniboybling]

If they want to do that they need to double check their writers. When they take events that are directly shown on the film and then screw up what people say, when they show up and the like, it makes any attempt to claim it's all one universe but with foggy windows as just being too lazy to make sure novels match the movies.

Well that's just how it is I'm afraid.

[StarMagus]

Well that's just how it is I'm afraid.

 

Sure but don't be surprised when somebody says that the version they saw on the Movies is the version they are going by rather than the version in the books which is clearly different on multiple levels.

[Wolfninjajedi]

The basic scene is still there ya know...4 Jedi Masters come to face a Sith Lord, 3 get cut down and leaves 1. Then you have a fight and then the lighting scene. Seems good to me.

[Beniboybling]

Sure but don't be surprised when somebody says that the version they saw on the Movies is the version they are going by rather than the version in the books which is clearly different on multiple levels.

Oh they already have, and I've already corrected them.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Exactly what does Revan have against that? He certainly doesn't have Vaapad and the Sith Emperor's lightning alone would stop him in his tracks. There is simply no possibility that he wouldn't get overwhelmed here.

Revan have extraordinary raw power and defensive abilities of his own, he is unlikely to be defenseless against Sidious's lightning assaults since Yoda and Galen weren't either.

 

Or

 

You mistake Revan for being on level of Rahm Kota or worse?

 

And even then, Sidious is a grossly superior lightsaber duelists and battle tactician, he's also far faster and far stronger, Revan won't be able to keep up with him. Simply put Revan would go down very very quickly.

You think that Revan is Rahm Kota level? Revan's reactions are such that he can physically outpace swings of expert swordsmen, unleash Force powers at split-second speeds and even hurl heavy objects like missiles on moment's notice. Revan is far above an average Jedi in these matters, far stronger then even many Jedi Masters including Rahm Kota.

 

Revan's stats are even more impressive then those of Galen in the Campaign Guides, if this is one way to compare characters. Leeland Chee believes in this kind of comparison:

 

"But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison."

 

You need to reassess Revan's abilities, he lost against the Sith Emperor - he couldn't even get close to him before he was killed. So why are you suggesting that he could win all of a sudden? Revan simply isn't strong enough to hold of the Sith Emperor's power, nor is he strong enough to hold of Sidious'.

 

They are out of his league, way way out of his league, this comparison shouldn't even been happening.

These matters are not so black and white. Sidious have the option to summon his most potent power to eliminate Revan on the spot but the latter have the option to prevent Sidious from doing so by using one of his signature moves like he did against the Sith Emperor.

 

In certain aspects, Sith Emperor is more dominating and overwhelming than Sidious. It is not like as if Sith Emperor is great at TASK A, Sidious is automatically his equal at TASK A as well. Sith Emperor have his own specialties that proved to be too much for Revan to handle, but it would be foolishness to underestimate Revan on this basis. Sith Emperor is known to destroy/subdue "multiple (canonically powerful) Force-users" simultaneously with his sheer Force abilities alone, he have honed his talents in such a way.

 

This comes to mind: "They were both very powerful, though not in the exact same way."

 

I do believe that Sidious is more powerful then Revan and is most likely to defeat him but it would be a good fight and not something like what happened to the brothers.

 

In his prime, Revan have destroyed entire armies. In his worst, Revan held his own against an extremely potent Strike Team for a while. He is no chump.

 

Every fan should read this: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revan-respect-thread/95278/

 

I've been reading about this recently and I am not convinced one way or another.

 

Yes, Palpatine could feed off an entire planet. He could create Force Storms. He destroyed the Jedi Order. He could create new abilites. But there are some things to consider in the Sith Emperor's favor.

 

The Emperor completely consumed all life from a planet. To the point where, if a force user even traveled to the planet, eventually they would be consumed. And in order to make it work, he dominated the minds of I believe it was 6,000 full Dark Lords. Someone mentioned earlier that because of the Rule of Two, the next Sith Lord would be more powerful than his master. After continuing for centuries, you end up with a very powerful Sith Lord. True.

 

But consider. Under the Rule of Two, they didn't have to worry about other Sith butting in. And they were hiding most of the time. They built their power in secret. In the Old Republic, EVERY Sith was trying to gain ultimate power. There was intense fighting to be the most powerful. Those were the types of Sith the Emperor took control of. Not just took control of, but eventually totally destroyed them.

 

Another person mentioned how Palpatine could transfer his essence from one body to another. Very true. And it was a very difficult and dangerous process to undertake. But he only jumped one body at a time. The Emperor, if I remember correctly, had both his Voice (which was essentially the Emperor himself in a body other than his original) and he had his Children. I don't remember if there was a number as to how many of his Children there were but they were also body's controlled directly by the Emperor. No free will of their own. So while Palpatine could feed off of billions, he could only directly control one body at a time. The Emperor could control an as yet unknown number of bodies as if they were his own all at the same time. And there is nothing to say that if he wished, the Emperor could also have fed off of billions. The reason why I don't believe he did is because he wasn't interested in simply feeding off of them. His goal was to totally consume them. For that, he did not have the power to do so. Which is why he began to take control of so many bodies so that he could perform the same ritual only on a much larger scale.

 

I hope you find this to be an interesting post. I am in no way diminishing how powerful Palpatine is. Just thought I would point out it may not be as much of a one sided battle as some have said it would be.

 

As a final tally, I believe that if it was a lightsaber duel, Palpatine would win. But if a Force Battle, I think my vote would go to the Sith Emperor. Because while Palpatine has incredible power, I think there would be a very good chance that the Sith Emperor could simply destroy Palpatine's mind. Palpatine could hide in plain sight because of his power, but the Emperor, for at least a brief period, dominated the minds of not one or two, but three Jedi Masters serving on the Council along with a powerful Jedi Knight.

You can learn more about Sith Emperor from this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=703103

 

(What would be really cool is if sometime after his 'death', the Sith Emperor simply took on a new life and Emperor Palpatine was actually the Sith Emperor....)

Bad idea.

 

If Sith Emperor is to be resurrected, it can be done in a future era (post Legacy timeline). Highlight can be like this:

 

"The Jedi thought that they had eliminated their greatest nemesis from the past but they are mistaken. An ancient evil plans its ascension once again, threatening the very existence of the galaxy itself and not just the Jedi Order."

 

I know! I Know!

 

"I'm a talented individual." (Revan)

Edited December 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Revan have extraordinary raw power and defensive abilities of his own, he is unlikely to be defenseless against Sidious's lightning assaults since Yoda and Galen weren't either.

 

Or

 

You mistake Revan for being on level of Rahm Kota or worse?

 

 

You think that Revan is Rahm Kota level? Revan's reactions are such that he can physically outpace swings of expert swordsmen, unleash Force powers at split-second speeds and even hurl heavy objects like missiles on moment's notice. Revan is far above an average Jedi in these matters, far stronger then even many Jedi Masters including Rahm Kota.

 

Revan's stats are even more impressive then those of Galen in the Campaign Guides, if this is one way to compare characters. Leeland Chee believes in this kind of comparison:

 

"But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison."

 

 

These matters are not so black and white. Sidious have the option to summon his most potent power to eliminate Revan on the spot but the latter have the option to prevent Sidious from doing so by using one of his signature moves like he did against the Sith Emperor.

 

In certain aspects, Sith Emperor is more dominating and overwhelming than Sidious. It is not like as if Sith Emperor is great at TASK A, Sidious is automatically his equal at TASK A as well. Sith Emperor have his own specialties that proved to be too much for Revan to handle, but it would be foolishness to underestimate Revan on this basis. Sith Emperor is known to destroy/subdue "multiple (canonically powerful) Force-users" simultaneously with his sheer Force abilities alone, he have honed his talents in such a way.

 

This comes to mind: "They were both very powerful, though not in the exact same way."

 

I do believe that Sidious is more powerful then Revan and is most likely to defeat him but it would be a good fight and not something like what happened to the brothers.

 

In his prime, Revan have destroyed entire armies. In his worst, Revan held his own against an extremely potent Strike Team for a while. He is no chump.

 

Every fan should read this: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revan-respect-thread/95278/

 

 

You can learn more about Sith Emperor from this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=703103

Forgive me but I find it ridiculous that on one thread, you dismiss that Plagueis could even begin to challenge the Sith Emperor, saying he is in another league, and dismissing everyone's arguments with lore dumps. And then you come along here and make a concerted effort to prove how Revan, a Force User of similar stature and ability, could prove a worthy opponent for Sidious. I mean what? THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. This is exactly what I am talking about:

 

Legend, please. Get out of your Old Republic bubble and apply that brain I'm sure you have to something outside the era! You go on about characters not been appreciated, you dredge up and extrapolate on overlooked examples of power in the Force, you form intricate arguments around these issues that actually make sense and yet when it comes to someone not in the OR era - they are chumps who have nothing on anyone.

 

Instead you real off in a one-sided manner and unrefined manner, the accolades of your favourite, without even considering the opposition. I mean really, where does the logic and reason go exactly? I'd very much like to know.

 

If you can take what little we know about Revan, drawing on facts such as that he outpaced "expert swordsmen", why in HELL do you find it so hard to believe that Plagueis cannot challenge the Sith Emperor in any form?

 

Did you not yourself admit that he is incredibly powerful, did you not yourself admit that he has impressive feats under his belt? Has he not demonstrated exceptional combat ability? Does he not have a repertoire of powerful Force abilities at is disposal? I for one, would most definitely assert Plagueis to be more powerful than Revan. I don't expect you to agree here, but hell if you don't we are running out of people that Revan is less powerful than.

 

So this makes no sense to me, I cannot even fathom what is going on in your head. I don't think I want to know either.

 

I think at this point I've had enough, I cannot reason with someone who is so blatantly hypocritical and two faced. Heck you've even gone as far as to post threads on Revan's power, yet ignored a replicate on Plagueis.

 

I mean why should I bother responding to this other than to say "Revan has nothing on the Sidious" "Your over-hyping Revan" "What have Revan done that makes some of you assume that he is a match for Sidious?" If you won't consider my opinions in a logical or coherent manner, I won't either.

[Beniboybling]

Oh and before you accuse me of doing the same thing, but asserting Plagueis can challenge the Sith Emperor and rejecting that Revan can challenge Sidious. This is a question of attitude and approach here. I feel that I have responded to that argument in a reasoned manner, if I had not you would not have been able to fashion counter arguments. I did not just dismiss his point with a statement like this:

Plagueis is no where near as powerful as Sith Emperor.

 

Or this:

Really?

 

[insert lore dump]

 

Plagueis have nothing on Sith Emperor.

Or this:

[insert comparison of select Force powers not related to combat]

 

Everything that Plagueis desired to accomplish, Sith Emperor had accomplished.

Or this:

Really?

 

[insert yet another lore dump]

 

No, Plagueis is not in the league of Sith Emperor, not even close.

 

Or worst of all:

Plagueis does not have sufficient credentials to be considered in the league of Sith Emperor. Simple.

 

Try subsituting in these comments the word Plagueis with Revan and Sith Emperor with Sidious. Now imagine I had made those remarks in response to what you just posted. How does that make you feel?

 

I actually made an effort to formulate argument and make a comparison between Sidious' and Revan's capabilities. If you had done the same for Plagueis, instead of just stating that we are wrong as if it is a fact, I would not have berated you. I would have strongly disagreed, but at least I wouldn't have thought of you as a douche.

 

Because this just shows that you don't care, and aren't prepared to have a reasoned discussion.

 

Maybe by laying them out plain, you might know realise affrontive these response are. And how very contrary they are to how you usually conduct yourself when concerning characters from the Old Republic era.

 

P.S. And while I'm putting anything on the table, your reputation is defined by those around you and how you treat them. So yes I most definitely have a say in your reputation, as you do mine, as does every member of the community. We judge you by how you conduct yourself, and I expect I am not along in observing an OR biased.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Beniboybling

[S_W_LeGenD]

Forgive me but I find it ridiculous that on one thread, you dismiss that Plagueis could even begin to challenge the Sith Emperor, saying he is in another league, and dismissing everyone's arguments with lore dumps. And then you come along here and make a concerted effort to prove how Revan, a Force User of similar stature and ability, could prove a worthy opponent for Sidious. I mean what? THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. This is exactly what I am talking about:

 

Legend, please. Get out of your Old Republic bubble and apply that brain I'm sure you have to something outside the era! You go on about characters not been appreciated, you dredge up and extrapolate on overlooked examples of power in the Force, you form intricate arguments around these issues that actually make sense and yet when it comes to someone not in the OR era - they are chumps who have nothing on anyone.

 

Instead you real off in a one-sided manner and unrefined manner, the accolades of your favourite, without even considering the opposition. I mean really, where does the logic and reason go exactly? I'd very much like to know.

When you make toll assumptions such as these;

 

Exactly what does Revan have against that? He certainly doesn't have Vaapad and the Sith Emperor's lightning alone would stop him in his tracks. There is simply no possibility that he wouldn't get overwhelmed here.

 

And even then, Sidious is a grossly superior lightsaber duelists and battle tactician, he's also far faster and far stronger, Revan won't be able to keep up with him. Simply put Revan would go down very very quickly.

 

You know what, I'm going to throw Darth Plagueis on the pile. I long while back there was a BattleZone between Plagueis and the Sith Emperor, and many folk laughed Plagueis out of the court. Heck even I didn't think Plagueis was tough enough to take the Sith Emperor head on, and I was rooting for him.

 

And yet, looking back, I realise how wrong everyone was. Plagueis is more than capable of meeting the Sith Emperor head on. Yet because he lives in Sidious' shadow, and he's a bit of a nerd, people dismiss him.

 

Darth Plagueis for #1!!!

 

- IT BECOMES A PROBLEM, Beni.

 

Here is some reality check for you:

 

Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts. (From Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide)

 

However;

 

 

From Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion

 

Using the chaos of this reprisal as cover, Scourge and Meetra free Revan but are nearly stopped by Nyris. Revan’s raw power in the Force bends Nyris’s Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.

 

 

 

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

 

"Gaze upon me and see your doom!” she declared. “I am Darth Nyriss, Lord of the Sith. I am the conqueror of Drezzi, the destroyer of Melldia, and a member of the Dark Council!”

 

Scourge braced himself for the end.

 

Just then, Revan emerged from the cell. He had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he wore the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face.

 

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.

 

Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.

 

“I am Revan reborn,” he said to Nyriss. “And before me you are nothing.”

 

Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

 

 

Revan effortlessly tanked an extraordinarily lethal stream of Sith lightning which was dangerous enough to incinerate and/or destroy even (canonically) powerful Force-users. I know that you do not think much of Darth Nyriss but underestimating her capabilities on the basis of the fact that Revan dismissed her, is sheer foolishness.

 

Count Dooku, who is apparently much less proficient in the use of Sith lightning then Darth Nyriss, pushed even Grand Master Yoda to his limits with his bursts:

 

 

From Star Wars: Attack of the Clones: Novelization

 

Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

 

"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned-but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."

 

"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered.

 

"Even you, my old Master!"

 

More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.

 

"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.

 

 

As noted above, it is not easy for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to contain Sith lightning with their personal power but Revan does have an excellent showing in this respect which indicates that how powerful he really is.

 

Yes, Revan was utterly outclassed by Emperor Vitiate but the latter being wields titanically overwhelming powers and is unmatched in various aspects of Force manipulation in the mythos. This is what I and several others have attempted to explain to you but you continue to overlook this ground reality.

 

If you can take what little we know about Revan, drawing on facts such as that he outpaced "expert swordsmen", why in HELL do you find it so hard to believe that Plagueis cannot challenge the Sith Emperor in any form?

Because Plagueis is not as battle-tested as both Revan and Sith Emperor are; Plagueis haven't felled legendary warriors in battles like Emperor Vitiate have; Plagueis haven't destroyed/subdued whole Councils and Strike Teams of powerful Force-users like Emperor Vitiate have; Plagueis haven't controlled and overshadowed millions of Sith (Force-users) like Emperor Vitiate have in a span of centuries; Plagueis haven't tanked one of the most lethal manifestations of the dark side like Emperor Vitiate have; Plagueis isn't considered to be greater then the combined strength of Revan, Meetra and Scourge like Emperor Vitiate is.

 

Plagueis does have some really impressive combat feats but the true measure of his ability is open to debate. Some reality check for you:

 

Plagueis and Sidious, jointly tested the limits of their strength and agility in a battle against hundreds of Kursid primitive warriors who wielded axes and such.

 

However, even Plagueis would be hesitant to challenge an advanced military force:

 

Centuries from now, advanced by the Sith, they might confront us with projectile weapons or energy beams. But by then we will have evolved, as well, perhaps past the need for this rite, and we will come instead to honor rather than engage them in battle. (From Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)

 

In contrast:

 

"Each [Revan and the Foundry] could dominate worlds...The Emperor sought to pry the Foundry's location from the Jedi's mind. But for centuries he resisted."

 

"As a Jedi, Revan was a warrior who slaughtered armies. As a Sith, Revan was a teacher who trained a thousand dark apprentices."

 

"Though there was immense power in the Shan bloodline, there is also a streak of unorthodoxy."

 

"In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to since combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion."

 

Revan cut a swath through forces of Mandalorians and Sith during battles, he subdued Darth Malak in the heart of the Star Forge. Even Plagueis gave lectures to Sidious about capabilities of Revan and Malak. Heck, Siidous thought highly of Darth Malgus, regarded him as the greatest warrior he have ever known.

 

These matters are not so black and white:

 

Plagueis does not appears to be in the league of Sith Emperor, is not an indication of me underestimating the former character. Plagueis does have some amazing feats under his belt but same is true for many characters who are canonically implied to be less powerful then Sith Emperor, so once again, why special status for Plagueis? Because he is Sith Master of Sidious? This is not sufficient argument. Sidious have learned something from even Malgus.

 

Their are a lot of remarkably powerful Force-users who are canonically beneath Emperor Vitiate, individuals with feats that even Plagueis have not demonstrated/matched. Why the hell you are overlooking this matter? Huh?

 

Did you not yourself admit that he is incredibly powerful, did you not yourself admit that he has impressive feats under his belt? Has he not demonstrated exceptional combat ability? Does he not have a repertoire of powerful Force abilities at is disposal? I for one, would most definitely assert Plagueis to be more powerful than Revan. I don't expect you to agree here, but hell if you don't we are running out of people that Revan is less powerful than.

Yes, Beni, I have admitted that Plagueis is among the remarkably powerful Force-users of the mythos but the list isn't small and many individuals of comparable talent and strength do not get comparable credit or hype in both canon and forums.

 

As far as comparison of Revan and Plagueis is concerned, see above.

 

So this makes no sense to me, I cannot even fathom what is going on in your head. I don't think I want to know either.

 

I think at this point I've had enough, I cannot reason with someone who is so blatantly hypocritical and two faced. Heck you've even gone as far as to post threads on Revan's power, yet ignored a replicate on Plagueis.

 

I mean why should I bother responding to this other than to say "Revan has nothing on the Sidious" "Your over-hyping Revan" "What have Revan done that makes some of you assume that he is a match for Sidious?" If you won't consider my opinions in a logical or coherent manner, I won't either.

I am not being hypocritical, Beni.

 

I am bringing facts to light, I am trying my best to give each character a fair representation based on canon revelations and holistic analysis of their feats and capabilities.

 

First, stop making toll claims about things that you do not understand or grasp. Stop assuming that character X is a match for Emperor Vitiate without strong basis. Try to comprehend Emperor Vitiate's position, accomplishments and power properly before you make such claims.

 

You argued that Sidious is a match for Emperor Vitiate, I also accepted this because Sidious does have amazing specialties which make him hold his own in comparison to all other Force-users. However, if you are trying to expand the list then your claims will be scrutinized.

Edited December 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

I'm not making "toll claims" Legend, I'm making an argument which you have a right to agree or disagree with as much as I have a right to assert it. That is how we formulate discussion.

 

And I encourage scrutiny.

 

I accept your response to my points on this thread, what I am asking is why can't you apply that mindset to Plagueis and instead dismiss him outright with no proper attempt to elaborate?

 

Playing the lack of feats argument is just plain silly, assuming that because someone has not done something, means they cannot, is an argument I would expect from someone far less intelligent and less informed than you. Instead we should look at what Plagueis has done and compare that with its relevant counterparts.

 

Indeed if you are pressed for information, I suggest (or rather demand) that you refer to the following:

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/darth-plagueismagister-hego-damask-respect-thread/83363/

 

 

Please do, both of these individuals are very well informed.

 

But as I have said before, if you are not prepared to respond logically and coherently in regards to Plagueis vs the Sith Emperor - I shall not bother here. Though I would point out that you have misinterpreted my point, namely that I am not saying Revan has no defenses against these powers, but that his defenses would prove woefully inadequate to the sheer magnitude of power that Darth Sidious has it his disposal, of which he can sustain indefinitely.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Beniboybling

[S_W_LeGenD]

I'm not making "toll claims" Legend, I'm making an argument which you have a right to agree or disagree with as much as I have a right to assert it. I accept your response to my points on this thread, what I am asking is why can't you apply that mindset to Plagueis and instead dismiss him outright with no proper attempt to elaborate?

 

But as I have said before, if you are not prepared to respond logically and coherently in regards to Plagueis vs the Sith Emperor - I shall not bother here. Though I would point out that you have misinterpreted my point.

And when I ever have underestimated Plagueis? This is my question to you.

 

My responses are logical and coherent, Beni. Problem is that you shy away from the points which put your assumptions to jeopardy.

 

---

 

I noticed that you edited your response above. Well, give me time to respond to all of your points. I will recheck those links you cited and get back to you.

Edited December 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

And when I ever have underestimated Plagueis? This is my question to you.

 

My responses are logical and coherent, Beni. Problem is that you shy away from the points which put your assumptions to jeopardy.

Show me the logic and coherency in what I sampled from #646 - there isn't even an argument there to respond to, and clearly if I tried to make one it would be rejected before you even read it. At least that appears to be the attitude.

 

And again, this is not about opinions, its about attitude. I make a claim that Plagueis can challenge the Sith Emperor, your response is: No, look how powerful the Sith Emperor is, he doesn't compare. Then I come along and make a claim that Revan can't challenge Sidious, your response: a logical and coherent argument.

 

So this is my question to you: why can't you apply the latter mindset to the former debate.

 

Trust me, I am itching to respond to the arguments you have made on this thread, but I am restraining myself. I never have shyed away from any of the arguments you have ever made. I have responded to everyone.

 

But I am ignoring this one out of principle.

 

Nor will I be bullied into replying as is your usual tactic when I have enough.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Beniboybling