Sith Emperor vs Darth Sidious

[Kaedusz]

So let me get this straight: the current argument is that if Vitiate isn't a Sith, then he is more powerful than Sidious? Or that he can be?

 

/le sigh

 

Nope.The point is that Vitaite is excluded from the most powerful sith competition,which means Sidious remains the most powerful *sith*.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Selenial]

So let me get this straight: the current argument is that if Vitiate isn't a Sith, then he is more powerful than Sidious? Or that he can be?

 

/le sigh

 

Oh god no. He's less powerful than Sidious, I just don't think he's a Sith.

 

Doesn't mean he's off the List, Traya wasn't exactly a Sith either.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Nope.The point is that Vitaite is excluded from the most powerful sith competition,which means Sidious remains the most powerful.

Sidious has been touted as the most powerful dark sider as well.

[Aurbere]

Does it matter if he's Sith or not? Sith is a title, an idea at this point.

[Kaedusz]

Sidious has been touted as the most powerful dark sider as well.

More powerful than the Son?

[Aurbere]

More powerful than the Son?

 

No, thus we can direct ourselves to Yoda's example.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

More powerful than the Son?

I'd like to think that immortal entities that exist on a separate plane of existence has actual reason for being exempt from these statements. After all did the Son not exist during the Old Republic era also?

[tunewalker]

I'd like to think that immortal entities that exist on a separate plane of existence has actual reason for being exempt from these statements. After all did the Son not exist during the Old Republic era also?

 

I am pretty sure he did....... as well as thousands of years before Vitiate was born.... pretty sure he exsisted in star wars for as long as the Force itself has exsisted...... or maybe just shortly after wards after all he is the "Son" and not the original.... hmm that does ask the question of when the Father created the Son and the Daughter.

[Aurbere]

I'd like to think that immortal entities that exist on a separate plane of existence has actual reason for being exempt from these statements. After all did the Son not exist during the Old Republic era also?

 

Yeah.

 

Did anyone read the Essential Guide to Warfare cut content on starwars.com?

[Selenial]

Yeah.

 

Did anyone read the Essential Guide to Warfare cut content on starwars.com?

 

Yeh, pretty cool!

[Aurbere]

Yeh, pretty cool!

 

It was very cool. Wish it hadn't been cut, but the current intro is pretty cool too.

[Selenial]

It was very cool. Wish it hadn't been cut, but the current intro is pretty cool too.

 

I just want to Know if it's Canon...

 

I had to ask myself at the end... Episode 7 plot anyone?

[Beniboybling]

Yeah.

 

Did anyone read the Essential Guide to Warfare cut content on starwars.com?

Yes I did, fascinating stuff. I'd love to for that to explored in depth.

[Beniboybling]

I just want to Know if it's Canon...

It is canon, according to the co-author:

 

Hi folks.

 

Yes, Leland Chee reviewed this for canon/continuity, and is reviewing future installments as well.

 

Of course, keep in mind that these are in-universe theories advanced by characters with imperfect knowledge.

 

Thanks for reading!

 

Can't wait to see what else they cut.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I had to ask myself at the end... Episode 7 plot anyone?

Genius! I'd take the Rakata or the Celestials over the Vong any day.

[DrowNoble]

I'm afraid this is not the case, I suggest you refer yourself to this thread. In particular, you might find the fact that upon death the Emperor is capable of possessing any Force user in the vicinity and anyone of his dark disciples across the galaxy. He has experienced a total of four deaths, and was only truly defeated with his fourth and final death when the combined will of every deceased Jedi in the Netherworld held him down.

 

And I'm not sure what Revan has to do with this... however against both Sidious and the Emperor he would and has been handedly defeat. His mastery over the Force is minuscule compared to there's. He also failed to achieve complete mastery over both aspects. He could perform some high level light side powers, and wield Sith Lightning and had knowledge of a few other powers. Its a assumption that having access to both fields gives him any kind of advantage against his enemies - it doesn't.

 

The Emperor can't just willy-nilly possess anyone he wants, dominate sure but that's not the same thing. There seems to be some requirement that they have to be his "child" or his designated Voice. In the Knight storyline he merely dominated people at the 1st meeting and at the end he didn't possess Knight after he/she "killed" him. In the Warrior storyline it is hinted that after the Knight "kills" him, he is weakened and building strength until he can acquire a new Voice.

 

You need to read the novel Revan, as the game's Revan is much weaker than he was in KOTOR or that novel. Had Scourge not betrayed Revan, the Emperor would of been (probably) been killed by Revan. Now whether or not this was the True Emperor or just another Voice, the story didn't elaborate. Revan basically had the skills/powers of both a Jedi Master and a Sith Lord, hence why he speaks of finding balance.

 

As for Sidious, he's a master planner. We saw that he put things motion decades before they bore fruit, showing he's patient. Revan is a master strategist from his success in the Mandalorian Wars. The Emperor, really doesn't plan much he just does what he wants when he wants it. He too is patient, but not because he's waiting for some master plan to come to fruition, more likely due to his immortality.

[Aurbere]

The Emperor can't just willy-nilly possess anyone he wants, dominate sure but that's not the same thing. There seems to be some requirement that they have to be his "child" or his designated Voice. In the Knight storyline he merely dominated people at the 1st meeting and at the end he didn't possess Knight after he/she "killed" him. In the Warrior storyline it is hinted that after the Knight "kills" him, he is weakened and building strength until he can acquire a new Voice.

 

You need to read the novel Revan, as the game's Revan is much weaker than he was in KOTOR or that novel. Had Scourge not betrayed Revan, the Emperor would of been (probably) been killed by Revan. Now whether or not this was the True Emperor or just another Voice, the story didn't elaborate. Revan basically had the skills/powers of both a Jedi Master and a Sith Lord, hence why he speaks of finding balance.

 

As for Sidious, he's a master planner. We saw that he put things motion decades before they bore fruit, showing he's patient. Revan is a master strategist from his success in the Mandalorian Wars. The Emperor, really doesn't plan much he just does what he wants when he wants it. He too is patient, but not because he's waiting for some master plan to come to fruition, more likely due to his immortality.

 

What exactly is your point?

[sell-dog]

You need to read the novel Revan, as the game's Revan is much weaker than he was in KOTOR or that novel. Had Scourge not betrayed Revan, the Emperor would of been (probably) been killed by Revan. Now whether or not this was the True Emperor or just another Voice, the story didn't elaborate.

 

Reread the fight in the Revan novel. Revan was momentarily saved by the droid and was overwhelmed by the Emperor's Lightning. Revan (a character I like and I am not a hater) did and always was going to lose to the Emperor. Even if Scourge wouldn't have betrayed Revan I'm confident the Emperor can defeat Scourge, Revan, and the Exile at once as he eliminated the Dark Council members simultaneously after this assault.

 

And yes this was the true Emperor and that is stated in the novel. The Emperor is obsessed with immortality and after this assault he is reminded of his mortality and hides is body and begins using voices etc. after this assault.

 

As for Sidious, he's a master planner. We saw that he put things motion decades before they bore fruit, showing he's patient. Revan is a master strategist from his success in the Mandalorian Wars. The Emperor, really doesn't plan much he just does what he wants when he wants it. He too is patient, but not because he's waiting for some master plan to come to fruition, more likely due to his immortality.

 

I don't know what your trying to say here. Hopefully not that Revan is the most powerful Force user.

Edited October 9, 2013 by sell-dog

[Beniboybling]

The Emperor can't just willy-nilly possess anyone he wants, dominate sure but that's not the same thing. There seems to be some requirement that they have to be his "child" or his designated Voice. In the Knight storyline he merely dominated people at the 1st meeting and at the end he didn't possess Knight after he/she "killed" him. In the Warrior storyline it is hinted that after the Knight "kills" him, he is weakened and building strength until he can acquire a new Voice.

 

You need to read the novel Revan, as the game's Revan is much weaker than he was in KOTOR or that novel. Had Scourge not betrayed Revan, the Emperor would of been (probably) been killed by Revan. Now whether or not this was the True Emperor or just another Voice, the story didn't elaborate. Revan basically had the skills/powers of both a Jedi Master and a Sith Lord, hence why he speaks of finding balance.

 

As for Sidious, he's a master planner. We saw that he put things motion decades before they bore fruit, showing he's patient. Revan is a master strategist from his success in the Mandalorian Wars. The Emperor, really doesn't plan much he just does what he wants when he wants it. He too is patient, but not because he's waiting for some master plan to come to fruition, more likely due to his immortality.

I mean Sidious, sorry.

 

But yes your correct, the Sith Emperor is not capable of these things whereas Sidious is.

 

And I've read the Revan novel, and I'm afraid you have misinterpreted. Revan alone wasn't capable of defeating the Emperor, only Revan, Meetra and Scourge combined. Revan alone was quickly overwhelmed, as he would have been Sidious. And even combined it does not necessarily speak of great power, as they were merely exploiting the Emperor's weaknesses in a combat situation. There are plenty of other Jedi who would do better than him.

[DrowNoble]

I mean Sidious, sorry.

 

But yes your correct, the Sith Emperor is not capable of these things whereas Sidious is.

 

And I've read the Revan novel, and I'm afraid you have misinterpreted. Revan alone wasn't capable of defeating the Emperor, only Revan, Meetra and Scourge combined. Revan alone was quickly overwhelmed, as he would have been Sidious. And even combined it does not necessarily speak of great power, as they were merely exploiting the Emperor's weaknesses in a combat situation. There are plenty of other Jedi who would do better than him.

 

I think we are not syncing our discussion well. I'll put it another way.

 

Drop them in a 2v2 arena, Sidious loses against either one, some Lightning isn't going to cut it against skilled Force users as shown when Mace Windu nearly beat Sidious, only failing due to Anakin's interference. Revan would give the Emperor a good fight and might pull out the win. The Emperor has immense dark side power, but Revan was able to draw upon both Light and Dark, something that could make a difference.

 

Now if it was they will fight at some point in the future, then Sidious would probably come out on top followed by Revan and the Emperor. Sidious is very patient, putting plans in motion that won't bear fruit for decades if need be. He has no qualms spending money, killing people or starting revolts (separatist movement) to achieve his goals. Sidious would arrange for the Emperor's Voice to be killed at one place, only to have himself in place to confront the temporarily weakened Emperor.

 

The Emperor himself doesn't seem to be any great strategist, more of a "bulldoze ahead with raw power" kind of guy. He's immortal so if you're causing him grief and he can't just outright kill you, he'll just wait til you die of old age and continue. As we saw in the Knight storyline, confronting him face-to-face is not a good idea, even Revan succumed the first time (tho he resisted the 2nd).

[Beniboybling]

I think we are not syncing our discussion well. I'll put it another way.

 

Drop them in a 2v2 arena, Sidious loses against either one, some Lightning isn't going to cut it against skilled Force users as shown when Mace Windu nearly beat Sidious, only failing due to Anakin's interference. Revan would give the Emperor a good fight and might pull out the win. The Emperor has immense dark side power, but Revan was able to draw upon both Light and Dark, something that could make a difference.

 

Now if it was they will fight at some point in the future, then Sidious would probably come out on top followed by Revan and the Emperor. Sidious is very patient, putting plans in motion that won't bear fruit for decades if need be. He has no qualms spending money, killing people or starting revolts (separatist movement) to achieve his goals. Sidious would arrange for the Emperor's Voice to be killed at one place, only to have himself in place to confront the temporarily weakened Emperor.

 

The Emperor himself doesn't seem to be any great strategist, more of a "bulldoze ahead with raw power" kind of guy. He's immortal so if you're causing him grief and he can't just outright kill you, he'll just wait til you die of old age and continue. As we saw in the Knight storyline, confronting him face-to-face is not a good idea, even Revan succumed the first time (tho he resisted the 2nd).

What are you suggesting here? Who are these 2v2?

 

If your suggesting that Sidious would lose a fight against Revan then you are very much mistaken. This "some lightining" you are referring would have killed Mace Windu but he chose to stop to make himself look weak before Anakin. To quote the Revenge of the Sith novel:

 

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

 

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

 

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

 

Exactly what does Revan have against that? He certainly doesn't have Vaapad and the Sith Emperor's lightning alone would stop him in his tracks. There is simply no possibility that he wouldn't get overwhelmed here.

 

And even then, Sidious is a grossly superior lightsaber duelists and battle tactician, he's also far faster and far stronger, Revan won't be able to keep up with him. Simply put Revan would go down very very quickly.

 

You need to reassess Revan's abilities, he lost against the Sith Emperor - he couldn't even get close to him before he was killed. So why are you suggesting that he could win all of a sudden? Revan simply isn't strong enough to hold of the Sith Emperor's power, nor is he strong enough to hold of Sidious'.

 

They are out of his league, way way out of his league, this comparison shouldn't even been happening.

 

Again you need to reassess your viewpoints on these characters abilities. I'd suggest you read this thread for Sidious abilities, if you have not already, and this thread for some information on the Sith Emperor.

[SteveWestfall]

I've been reading about this recently and I am not convinced one way or another.

 

Yes, Palpatine could feed off an entire planet. He could create Force Storms. He destroyed the Jedi Order. He could create new abilites. But there are some things to consider in the Sith Emperor's favor.

 

The Emperor completely consumed all life from a planet. To the point where, if a force user even traveled to the planet, eventually they would be consumed. And in order to make it work, he dominated the minds of I believe it was 6,000 full Dark Lords. Someone mentioned earlier that because of the Rule of Two, the next Sith Lord would be more powerful than his master. After continuing for centuries, you end up with a very powerful Sith Lord. True.

 

But consider. Under the Rule of Two, they didn't have to worry about other Sith butting in. And they were hiding most of the time. They built their power in secret. In the Old Republic, EVERY Sith was trying to gain ultimate power. There was intense fighting to be the most powerful. Those were the types of Sith the Emperor took control of. Not just took control of, but eventually totally destroyed them.

 

Another person mentioned how Palpatine could transfer his essence from one body to another. Very true. And it was a very difficult and dangerous process to undertake. But he only jumped one body at a time. The Emperor, if I remember correctly, had both his Voice (which was essentially the Emperor himself in a body other than his original) and he had his Children. I don't remember if there was a number as to how many of his Children there were but they were also body's controlled directly by the Emperor. No free will of their own. So while Palpatine could feed off of billions, he could only directly control one body at a time. The Emperor could control an as yet unknown number of bodies as if they were his own all at the same time. And there is nothing to say that if he wished, the Emperor could also have fed off of billions. The reason why I don't believe he did is because he wasn't interested in simply feeding off of them. His goal was to totally consume them. For that, he did not have the power to do so. Which is why he began to take control of so many bodies so that he could perform the same ritual only on a much larger scale.

 

I hope you find this to be an interesting post. I am in no way diminishing how powerful Palpatine is. Just thought I would point out it may not be as much of a one sided battle as some have said it would be.

 

As a final tally, I believe that if it was a lightsaber duel, Palpatine would win. But if a Force Battle, I think my vote would go to the Sith Emperor. Because while Palpatine has incredible power, I think there would be a very good chance that the Sith Emperor could simply destroy Palpatine's mind. Palpatine could hide in plain sight because of his power, but the Emperor, for at least a brief period, dominated the minds of not one or two, but three Jedi Masters serving on the Council along with a powerful Jedi Knight.

 

(What would be really cool is if sometime after his 'death', the Sith Emperor simply took on a new life and Emperor Palpatine was actually the Sith Emperor....)

[Aurbere]

 

[Beniboybling]

This debate exhausted itself a long time ago, see here for the solution.

[fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg]

I would have to go with the sith emperor considering the fact that he was able to deceive the entire galatic republic and jedi order through deceptions and misdirection for a couple thousand years, far longer than Palpatine did. Plus the sith emperor was able to kill every jedi and the most powerful sith all at once just through meditating and was able to make unlimited replicas of himself.