Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Hulgren]

I never noticed it on my shadow because it doesnt have many cast timers, and most abilities work off the global cooldown. I started a trooper and noticed it right away. Yes it is possible to work around single player, but it shouldn't be a long term issue.

[Arkimor]

We just want a combat system that reacts when we do, Bioware.

 

/bump

[Chaosmagistrate]

To be fair, and not to discriminate, if this is your first MMORPG, or you were never a competitive PvEr or PvPer in an MMORPG, this might not be an issue.

 

A large number of people probably actually believe that you should wait until an animation finishes and that waiting until the GCD ends client side rather than server side.

 

However, a large number of people also have played WoW at the highest levels, or even other games. Some of us are not just "nerds". Gaming is a hobby and many do want to be the best at their hobby, just like buying aftermarket parts for your car rather than stock. In my clan alone, we have former S1 gladiators and US Top 100 PvE guild members from WoW. Some are tournament level SC2 and SF3:3I players. Many of us come from TFC, TF2, CS, BF3, some of us at league level. We game because we love it, and because we want to be F-ing good at it.

 

Most of us notice that once in awhile, we get totally screwed by the combat mechanics in TOR. Like many who have posted on here, this issue is readily prevalant in Warzones because that's when it most matters. Jilted combat against mobs is more of a non-issue, as you can just mortar volley everything and they're dead. However in PvP combat, responsiveness issues crop up at the worst times, and are most memorable because it costs you kills, the cap point, or the game.

 

Trying to replicate this in a scientific manner is harder than said. Trying to reproduce the hyper-awareness of being in the middle of five Sith, popping Rebuke and Saber Ward, dropping the Sith Sorceror down to 25%, and seeing him pop force speed and you follow with Force Leap and you start SLAMMING the Dispatch Key, and all you get is "Out of Range" or "Not Facing Target". All this while the enemy's character models is frozen on your screen in Force Speed directly in front of you, and then three seconds later he is 10 feet behind you. This is extremely frustrating to say the least.

 

Isolating the issue solely as a network server-client latency issue is ignorance at best. The issue cleary exists and is in the code itself.

 

For the years I played WoW, and thanks to Thraga for reminding me it was Quartz - It's been awhile since I helmed a WoW character, the combat system worked. It worked in Vanilla, it worked in TBC. There were other launch issues, actually a lot of them, but they got the combat system right. It was smooth and responsive at almost all times. For now, in TOR, it is a toss-up on if my moves fire on time or if I meet the conditions necessary to perform my moves.

 

As much as people hate WoW, I quit during SWP so I generally have good memories of WoW, they did get some things right. They "appropriated" ideas and concepts from Eve, EQ, and a whole slew of other games, and streamlined them to be more inuitive and fluid. Spit down on it all you want, but simply put, their combat system worked 99% of the time. The same can not be said about TOR.

 

Overall, personally, I enjoy the game, outside of Warzones, all the innane bugs, Rakata Energy Cubes, and the stupid RNG Champion bags(I am the highest valor in my guild, and guildies 10 ranks lower are in complete Champion, while I only have 2 pieces of Champ, and 3 Centurion)...but that does not absolve Bioware of not pursuing this problem and other bugs as quickly as possible, especially now that a 50's bracket and a "possibly" rated Ops WZ will be implemented. As my guild is heavily PvP focused, we are salivating at ranked Warzones, so we definately want this fixed before then.

[Psykostis]

First post on these forums and /bump from me as well...

[Reedful]

Absolutely terrible.

[asbalana]

I never noticed it on my shadow because it doesnt have many cast timers, and most abilities work off the global cooldown. I started a trooper and noticed it right away. Yes it is possible to work around single player, but it shouldn't be a long term issue.

 

Again there are many issues being lumped together under the title of character responsiveness. I have a level 26 shadow and a 26 trooper and see the issues on both. I also see them on my lower level SI. To the people who post that it is rig related, I would say that I have a great gaming rig. I also have had the issues on two different rigs under different accounts. My latency is usuall between 35 and 50ms. I have pinged while playing and gotten an average 35ms response.

 

Both the shadow and trooper experience cast misfires. Both have experienced cast delays in that I cast an ability and the animation starts a half to one and a half seconds after I hit the button. I have read a number of posts addressing when cast damage hits, but from my own play can never really be sure. The same is true with mobs. You can see a mob initiate an action and not really be sure when it will hit you. I have died a second or two after killing a mob from a non dot spell hitting and damaging me that long after the mob cast it. I have had start the annimation, start the cd, and deliver no damage. One thing that really hits me is the inconsistancies of experience beteen players (with some saying that they have had no problem at all), to the differences for the same player both in different days of play and different characters played.

[Xcore]

To be fair, and not to discriminate, if this is your first MMORPG, or you were never a competitive PvEr or PvPer in an MMORPG, this might not be an issue.

 

A large number of people probably actually believe that you should wait until an animation finishes and that waiting until the GCD ends client side rather than server side.

 

However, a large number of people also have played WoW at the highest levels, or even other games. Some of us are not just "nerds". Gaming is a hobby and many do want to be the best at their hobby, just like buying aftermarket parts for your car rather than stock. In my clan alone, we have former S1 gladiators and US Top 100 PvE guild members from WoW. Some are tournament level SC2 and SF3:3I players. Many of us come from TFC, TF2, CS, BF3, some of us at league level. We game because we love it, and because we want to be F-ing good at it.

 

Most of us notice that once in awhile, we get totally screwed by the combat mechanics in TOR. Like many who have posted on here, this issue is readily prevalant in Warzones because that's when it most matters. Jilted combat against mobs is more of a non-issue, as you can just mortar volley everything and they're dead. However in PvP combat, responsiveness issues crop up at the worst times, and are most memorable because it costs you kills, the cap point, or the game.

 

Trying to replicate this in a scientific manner is harder than said. Trying to reproduce the hyper-awareness of being in the middle of five Sith, popping Rebuke and Saber Ward, dropping the Sith Sorceror down to 25%, and seeing him pop force speed and you follow with Force Leap and you start SLAMMING the Dispatch Key, and all you get is "Out of Range" or "Not Facing Target". All this while the enemy's character models is frozen on your screen in Force Speed directly in front of you, and then three seconds later he is 10 feet behind you. This is extremely frustrating to say the least.

 

Isolating the issue solely as a network server-client latency issue is ignorance at best. The issue cleary exists and is in the code itself.

 

For the years I played WoW, and thanks to Thraga for reminding me it was Quartz - It's been awhile since I helmed a WoW character, the combat system worked. It worked in Vanilla, it worked in TBC. There were other launch issues, actually a lot of them, but they got the combat system right. It was smooth and responsive at almost all times. For now, in TOR, it is a toss-up on if my moves fire on time or if I meet the conditions necessary to perform my moves.

 

As much as people hate WoW, I quit during SWP so I generally have good memories of WoW, they did get some things right. They "appropriated" ideas and concepts from Eve, EQ, and a whole slew of other games, and streamlined them to be more inuitive and fluid. Spit down on it all you want, but simply put, their combat system worked 99% of the time. The same can not be said about TOR.

 

Overall, personally, I enjoy the game, outside of Warzones, all the innane bugs, Rakata Energy Cubes, and the stupid RNG Champion bags(I am the highest valor in my guild, and guildies 10 ranks lower are in complete Champion, while I only have 2 pieces of Champ, and 3 Centurion)...but that does not absolve Bioware of not pursuing this problem and other bugs as quickly as possible, especially now that a 50's bracket and a "possibly" rated Ops WZ will be implemented. As my guild is heavily PvP focused, we are salivating at ranked Warzones, so we definately want this fixed before then.

 

Great post, thank you. Your post echoes my thoughts, I'm glad you posted it as I have no patience to create these anymore.

 

I will add your thoughts to the OP later today...

[Raalic]

Happy to find this thread, as I was having some difficulty identifying exactly what it was about this game that felt clunky and off-putting. I played WoW for 6 years, quit just about 6 months ago in anticipation of swtor. I currently play a 39 Assassin tank, and I am endlessly irritated at how stiff I feel. As the OP has clearly noted, this is not performance or latency-related. Every other interrupt misses, my taunts aren't snappy, my cc-breaker doesn't go off until after the cc has ended 30-40% of the time.. As a tank, this is all absolutely game-breaking. I cannot effectively manage end-game content without instantaneous response from all of my abilities. To be honest, I feel that in WoW, even when I was having lag, my abilities went off exactly when I keyed them, even if I was so laggy I couldn't see what was happening. Here, even with extremely low latency and smooth framerate, I feel like I am issuing commands through a 3rd party. It's awful. This issue alone is going to cause me to cancel my subscription if it's not addressed soon, and I am a lifelong star wars fan and mmo gamer.

[Reedful]

On my trooper yesterday I knocked someone towards me with Concussion Round, so there's that.

[Matteis]

Still nothing about this in the latest patch. Greeeeat.

[Xcore]

On my trooper yesterday I knocked someone towards me with Concussion Round, so there's that.

 

lol, every time I enter a Warzone I experience this: (Gunslinger)

 

1) Get stunned by a melee

2) Trinkets the stun (Instant - No GCD Trigger)

3) Cover to be able to use my next ability (Instant - No GCD Trigger)

4) Knockback Ability (Instant - GCD Trigger)

 

That sequence of abilities has become the single worst gameplay experience I have had since Warhammer. It is the epitome of "clunky", "unresponsive", "frustrating".

 

Two instant abilities without GCD Triggers followed by another Instant. If Bioware can solve this overall issue of responsiveness and feeling we'll have a great, successful, long lasting game on our hand.

[SnakeBites]

Maybe it's your rig cuz it "feels" great to me. No problems on my end.

 

 

Wow yeah, who would have thought. It MUST be my rig.

Here are my specs, tell me what i need to upgrade so i don't have this problem bro.

 

i7-2700k Quad Core

8GB RAM

2GB AMD RADEON HD6970 - Crossfire

Windows 7 - 64 bit.

 

On average i get 90+ frames whilst questing & 70+ frames in PvP.

Can you tell me what i need to upgrade "CUZ" you clearly know what you're talking about.

Edited January 5, 2012 by SnakeBites

[Owanan]

I have greatly reduced my play time due to the ability delay. I hope it is fixed, my weekend is coming up and I would want to play swtor with my friends, but then I remember the ability delay, so I'm not making any swtor plans.

[Chaosmagistrate]

On my trooper yesterday I knocked someone towards me with Concussion Round, so there's that.

 

This is one of the most prominent reasons why I quit Huttball when I see it. Playing Huttball as a Sentinel is like trying to coax a rock to sing. It is extremely frustrating.

 

If I am standing in front of you, approximately 4m away, and I mean DIRECTLY infront of you, such that more walkway path is behind me and behind you, and you have a knockback, it feels like at least 50% of the time, your knockback will knock me sideways off the walkway or behind you. Or worse it will knock me up over a crate or ramp that was on the walkway.

 

I've even been knocked sideways while having my back to the post on walkway level 3.

 

Elevation changes are what WoW avoided with Leap, and in this case should apply to knockbacks to a degree. There is literally no rhyme or rythym to the knockbacks in this game. My Guardian friend has Force Pushed someone through his own chracter model and then behind him instead of off the cliff. It's like the knockbacks are a roulette table in this game. They /roll to see which direction you get pushed.

 

This is probably a different issue than character responsiveness, but does fall in the combat system, as this is most definitely a client-server-client netcode failure.

 

And SnakeBites, your rig obviously needs Quad SLI with phase cooling. What a POS you have there:cool:

[DeathDeathDie]

Lol, theres no way to get 100 apm in any mmo game cause of GCD. sheesh.

 

there is if your moving your camera, jumping, grabbing another target, and clicking a structure that needs to be triggered while that target you just grabbed is moving along side it, while beginning to spam your desired action on your hotbar just before the GCD wears off so as to act at the very moment that action becomes available. Keeping in mind that every keystroke you register is an action, every click of your mouse is an action.

[kalibri]

Played all aspects of WoW (PvP and raiding) obsessively for over 4 years and SWTOR "feels" exactly the same to me in terms of ability responsiveness. Not sure what to tell ya. Maybe it's your rig cuz it "feels" great to me. No problems on my end.

 

May I suggest you switch the color to a shade of brown? It would suit better your personality and post contents. Thank you.

[Nikita_Kilemal]

Gooooood morning thread! /Robin Williams

 

Wow up to #5 now? Well time to add some more vids to the pile. And I will add to the troubleshooting that outside the sith temple I have noticeably less ability lag, second I hit an inside zone though...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmugfJ6W4v0&feature=youtu.be

 

Watch the birdie or the sith as at 0:07 blaster bolt is activated, but by the time it decides to actually fire I've been forced pushed and get an out of range error.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME-M7dEIA28&feature=youtu.be

 

Another ability delay or being caught in animation locks? 0:26 Rocket punch is activated on hotbar. Then it's a couple seconds of me in dodge animations before I finally attack at 0:28.

 

And if you look the GCD is fully finished before that first rocket punch goes off.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k59uvFXlP5A&feature=youtu.be

 

Another rocket punch vid. 0:15 to 0:17 And again the GCD finishes before the attack decides to fire.

 

I can't help but wonder if this is how some of us are having issues with attacks not firing properly? Are we seeing a ready hotbar, hitting something, then the server decides to just ignore the first press? Either way its still inexcusable.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpyra8heSUk&feature=youtu.be

 

Speaking of the exact issue I raise above! Ability delay double whammy, and I didn't even notice it till I slo mo'ed the vid after capture.

 

Watch the flame blast activation at 0:21. Like other delay issues it decides to finally fire about 0:23. (And a ready GCD on my hotbar yet again)

 

This however is the same moment I activate rocket punch. Keep in mind I wasn't aware of the delay problem on flame blast till AFTER I made this vid, in fact I had to rewatch it about 6 times before I saw what happened. In game I saw ready hotbar and hit the punch.

 

Problem is my "instant" attack can't go off till a second and change later, I'm still stuck in flame blast's animation. If you pause at 0:24 you'll also notice that the GCD is almost fully cooled down, and I'm still on the ground.

 

very start of 0:25 (requires a quick pause) GCD ready, still waiting for rocket punch to animate.

 

And while not tied to animations, here's some bonus vids showing off combat lag or outright bugged?

 

ONCE! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwCB0SAXLwM&feature=youtu.be

 

TWICE! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10qY2PKQphQ&feature=youtu.be

 

And third time is a charm! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax7T-RdRkUk&feature=youtu.be

 

Three videos of my stun breaker refusing to work. If you want extra giggles you'll notice in the first two it says can not use this while stunned. While in the third it totally ignores the first activation attempt.

 

Psst trion, this is the part where you come in and tell me it's my 50 ms latency to blame for everything.

[sabresandiego]

There is a huge problem with abilities which are off the gcd not working. This includes interrupts, CC breakers, and buffs. The abilities simply fail to work, especially in hectic combat.

[Vorlia]

It's your ping!

 

/signed

/voted

[Lakaiiiiiii]

A++ to OP for this! Marauder skills are extremely painful to watch/play for all reasons discussed here.

[gangbot]

On my jedi guardian, my defensive cooldowns dont work unless i change the target :S

[elvinu]

/signed

 

we need this sticky

[Kypl]

There, they are working on it now stop complaining and deal with it until then.

 

Yes, I certainly am glad Bioware has at least commented on this issue.

 

To OP: I totally understand what you mean,.. .5s of you desperately spamming an ability should absolutely set it off 100% of the time.

 

These delays make it a much less reflexive game, and closer to a live strategy.

[Rownee]

Canceled my account because this game does'nt feel fluid and thats the last thing I want during pvp gameplay. Epic fail bw.

[Lakaiiiiiii]

This definitely deserves to be Stickied people are making new posts about it because of forum activity forcing this thread to the 3rd or 4th page.