Really Bioware?

[Baizak]

I have never once missed force pull. I use saber throw for LOS pulls while tanking and closing the gap is never an issue for me in PvP.

[Guaritorr]

I have never once missed force pull. I use saber throw for LOS pulls while tanking and closing the gap is never an issue for me in PvP.

 

Yeah, but why deal with a Jugg who has to LoS Pull every pull so he can actually tank those ranged mobs, when you can just get a powertech who can charge in and grapple them, then aoe everything. I've been tanking flashpoints and heroics all the way from 14 to 48 so far, and last night for the first time, my friends and I needed another dps, when we saw he was a powertech with more health then me, we decided to let him tank, and it was depressing seeing just how many tools he had, and I swear he took less damage as well.

 

So yeah, while we may be capable of getting the job done, why make it harder on the group by being a Jugg?

Edited January 5, 2012 by Guaritorr

[Dreadspectre]

PvE players don't really need pull. PvP players do. I play Vengeance and yes, Unstoppable is pretty awesome but it doesn't mean you win every fight vs a ranged. It lasts a whole 4 seconds, if the ranged has any brain at all all they have to do is wait until the little oh so obvious orange shield that forms on you is gone to use their knockback/CC on you.

 

Then you say "chilling scream them nub they won't get away." Why yes, I do chilling scream immediately after landing a charge(for free mind you.) Problem is most ranged classes have access to a slow of their own. Sooooo..knockback>snare and there is now a distance between us that I won't make up for. I am now left waiting for CD on charge to finish while I maybe do a saber throw for some rage and meh damage.

 

"Force Choke them nub" I would love to, but unfortunately the range is so abysmally small that I'm out of range after the knockback.

 

Only reason you'll ever stick on a ranged that isn't braindead is because their CC/Knockback is on CD or someone else is holding them for you. Rage Juggs have an easier time with a 2nd charge though. No one is going to die in the 4 seconds of CC free time you have, especially considering that you will get at most 3 abilities off in that time frame due to GCD.

 

Put pull on a 2 min cd, **** a 5 min CD. I don't care. Give me something. Make it a Vengeance high tree talent, replace one of our ****** bleeds with it or something.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Dreadspectre

[Afaramas]

Damn the L2P crowd out in force in this thread.

 

And what's with all the WOW references, So you played a warrior in WoW which is tougher to play than a DK (whatever that is), who cares, really.

 

The main tanking class, which has nearly always been melee, has had a pull mechanic, in pratically all recent MMO's I have played. It's a bloody basic requirement. Crazy that we don't have one, irrespective of whether other classes do. I have fun with my force push but I would trade that in for a far more aligned skill of force pull any day of the week.

 

Please quit it with the L2P stuff it's not really impressing anyone it just looks a bit childish tbh, and it's not about being a clone of another class this is a core melee tank class requirement that's missing, spec it high into the Immortal tree if you are worried about it's use in PVP.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Afaramas

[Aniliss]

PvE players don't really need pull. PvP players do. I play Vengeance and yes, Unstoppable is pretty awesome but it doesn't mean you win every fight vs a ranged. It lasts a whole 4 seconds, if the ranged has any brain at all all they have to do is wait until the little oh so obvious orange shield that forms on you is gone to use their knockback/CC on you.

 

Then you say "chilling scream them nub they won't get away." Why yes, I do chilling scream immediately after landing a charge(for free mind you.) Problem is most ranged classes have access to a slow of their own. Sooooo..knockback>snare and there is now a distance between us that I won't make up for. I am now left waiting for CD on charge to finish while I maybe do a saber throw for some rage and meh damage.

 

"Force Choke them nub" I would love to, but unfortunately the range is so abysmally small that I'm out of range after the knockback.

 

Only reason you'll ever stick on a ranged that isn't braindead is because their CC/Knockback is on CD or someone else is holding them for you. Rage Juggs have an easier time with a 2nd charge though. No one is going to die in the 4 seconds of CC free time you have, especially considering that you will get at most 3 abilities off in that time frame due to GCD.

 

Put pull on a 2 min cd, **** a 5 min CD. I don't care. Give me something. Make it a Vengeance high tree talent, replace one of our ****** bleeds with it or something.

 

I've been pvping vengeance since lv 10. I love the spec but we don't need force pull either. That would be entirely too OP. Unstoppable with a force pull.. we would be almost unkitable.. also being able to use Intercede as a nice utility move if any teammates are around.. 3 gap closers.. nah. If you want a gap closer go Rage spec and get Obliterate ( even though it has the same range as force choke) If anything, (not saying it's needed) increase the range of Force Choke from 10 M to like 13-15.

[Dreadspectre]

We would not be almost unkiteable, it would have a CD and as I stated I wouldn't even care if it had a 5 minute CD. I've been Vengeance since 10 as well, doesn't mean that somehow you gain mystical insights into not ever being kited.

 

I covered it very well, the only reason you will EVER stay on a ranged is because either:

 

1. They are very bad and don't know how to wait the 3-4 seconds for Unstoppable to fade before using a knockback/CC

 

2. Their CC/Knockback is on CD.

 

Intervene, while useable as a gap closer IF a teammate is around, is not a gaurantee closer so I don't count it. So essentially all Vengeance Juggs have is a 15 sec Charge and a 50% slow. Reminds me of another warrior class...except that one has a 4 second knockdown, a snare that becomes a root, a ground targeted 50sec cd jump and bleeds that actually deal damage.(And yet despite all that they are considered junkish since at least last season with a rapidly declining population)

 

Edit: In no way am I saying Juggs are god awful, but to say that giving us a pull, even a very long CD version would make us OP in anyway shape or form..just not true.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Dreadspectre

[Noth]

PvE players don't really need pull. PvP players do. I play Vengeance and yes, Unstoppable is pretty awesome but it doesn't mean you win every fight vs a ranged. It lasts a whole 4 seconds, if the ranged has any brain at all all they have to do is wait until the little oh so obvious orange shield that forms on you is gone to use their knockback/CC on you.

 

Then you say "chilling scream them nub they won't get away." Why yes, I do chilling scream immediately after landing a charge(for free mind you.) Problem is most ranged classes have access to a slow of their own. Sooooo..knockback>snare and there is now a distance between us that I won't make up for. I am now left waiting for CD on charge to finish while I maybe do a saber throw for some rage and meh damage.

 

"Force Choke them nub" I would love to, but unfortunately the range is so abysmally small that I'm out of range after the knockback.

 

Only reason you'll ever stick on a ranged that isn't braindead is because their CC/Knockback is on CD or someone else is holding them for you. Rage Juggs have an easier time with a 2nd charge though. No one is going to die in the 4 seconds of CC free time you have, especially considering that you will get at most 3 abilities off in that time frame due to GCD.

 

Put pull on a 2 min cd, **** a 5 min CD. I don't care. Give me something. Make it a Vengeance high tree talent, replace one of our ****** bleeds with it or something.

 

It should be a tank talent not a vengeance talent. Tanks need it more in pve and it serves a tanks role more than a dps role.

[Dreadspectre]

It should be a tank talent not a vengeance talent. Tanks need it more in pve and it serves a tanks role more than a dps role.

 

You already have a ranged pull..its called saber throw...

 

Aslo taunt has some range on it..

 

And of course you also have charge>smash

Edited January 5, 2012 by Dreadspectre

[Bullsith]

You already have a ranged pull..its called saber throw...

 

Aslo taunt has some range on it..

 

And of course you also have charge>smash

 

Wich is nothing next to what a Powertech can do. Yeah we need it, especially in PVE if we want to compete with the other tanks. Bioware feels we do not need Force Pull, I'll understand when they tell me why Powertechs and Vanguards do, I mean they have all the tools we have plus a much easier time to get and keep aggro from ranged targets. But right now I'm not seeing the logic behind the removal of force pull from a melee tank and give to a ranged tank.

 

I'm getting really bored of these weak reasons why people think we don't need force pull, especially from those who don't even play Immoral spec, or even Juggs.

[Dreadspectre]

Wich is nothing next to what a Powertech can do. Yeah we need it, especially in PVE if we want to compete with the other tanks. Bioware feels we do not need Force Pull, I'll understand when they tell me why Powertechs and Vanguards do, I mean they have all the tools we have plus a much easier time to get and keep aggro from ranged targets. But right now I'm not seeing the logic behind the removal of force pull from a melee tank and give to a ranged tank.

 

I'm getting really bored of these weak reasons why people think we don't need force pull, especially from those who don't even play Immoral spec, or even Juggs.

 

Maybe you should read my last few posts..I'm a Vengeance Jugg who WANTS pull...

[Bullsith]

Maybe you should read my last few posts..I'm a Vengeance Jugg who WANTS pull...

 

Makes no difference, my point stands. And if you do want FP, then don't include yourself in my last paragraph cause I didn't aim it at your post, I aimed it at many here.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Bullsith

[Noth]

You already have a ranged pull..its called saber throw...

 

Aslo taunt has some range on it..

 

And of course you also have charge>smash

 

Sweet the BH gets how many ranged pulls and even a range AoE pull? They shouldn't have pull either then. You again are failing to see the issue.

[Afaramas]

You already have a ranged pull..its called saber throw...

 

Aslo taunt has some range on it..

 

And of course you also have charge>smash

 

Part of a tank's role is to stack the mobs for aoers to ply away at, with a ranged mobs, Saber throw will not allow you to do that. It's not the same skill at all.

[Dreadspectre]

Juggs can still stack as far as I can see, BW just wants you to do it with a "I come to you and herd you up and smash/aoe taunt" approach rather than "come to me" approach with SW class.

 

An easy fix would be to add a taunt mechanic into saber throw seeing as how they will probably never give us pull back.

[DiLune]

If you taunt a ranged mob he will still stand at range and attack you. The whole reason people want a pull is to gather mobs in rather than having a pack spread out that you have to constantly run around keeping threat up.

 

Very different in a primarily melee based game (WoW) vs a range based game.

[Noth]

Juggs can still stack as far as I can see, BW just wants you to do it with a "I come to you and herd you up and smash/aoe taunt" approach rather than "come to me" approach with SW class.

 

An easy fix would be to add a taunt mechanic into saber throw seeing as how they will probably never give us pull back.

 

BH can do that too (they get a charge as well). They don't have to use pull yet they can when needed. BH can do what we do and better along with do more than we can.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Noth

[DiLune]

If we got an ability that was on a CD that prevented a mob from using ranged attacks for a short time that made him run in, then I'd be all for that. But for all intents and purposes, that's a pull.

[Dreadspectre]

BH's can only pull 1 mob yes? So how is this game breakingly different than us? Instead of pulling the ranged to you, wrangle up the melee adds and then force charge onto the ranged. Melee mobs follow you, you aoe smash on all of them now and make sure you point them away from the group.

 

I don't have a BH but I'm assuming thats how it works..1 pull with a 1min CD? I don't see how a BH herds multple ranged that much better.

 

Edit: And no I don't PvE in this, so I don't know what flashpoints have what for room pulls etc.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Dreadspectre

[Noth]

BH's can only pull 1 mob yes? So how is this game breakingly different than us? Instead of pulling the ranged to you, wrangle up the melee adds and then force charge onto the ranged. Melee mobs follow you, you aoe smash on all of them now and make sure you point them away from the group.

 

I don't have a BH but I'm assuming thats how it works..1 pull with a 1min CD? I don't see how a BH herds multple ranged that much better.

 

Pull has a 45 second cooldown and can be specced down to 35 seconds. They also get a charge on a 15 second cooldown. they can also grab threat at range much easier than Juggs can. They can do everything the Jugg can, but be more efficient at it and even do things the jugg can't (thanks to pull). It's quite literally a case of the class with the worst AoE and ranged aggro getting a key tool for dealing with such taken away, while the class that has much better ranged and AoE aggro getting to keep a tool for such without giving up anything else.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Noth

[Dreadspectre]

Pull has a 45 second cooldown. They also get a charge on a 15 second cooldown. tehy can also grab threat at range much easier than Juggs can. They can do everything the Jugg can, but be more efficient at it and even do things the jugg can't (thanks to pull). It's quite literally a case of the class with the worst AoE and ranged aggro getting a key tool for dealing with such taken away, while the class that has much better ranged and AoE aggro getting to keep a tool for such without giving up anything else.

 

Well thats nice that they can get aggro at range better than a Jugg but how does that impact the question at hand? I thought the issue was Juggs needed to be able to coral ranged better for AoE'ing down. BH can only move 1 ranged where they want it to be, the rest of the ranged mobs targeting them will stand wherever they are and shoot at the BH just like they would a Jugg.

[WarSiren]

Not surre if the people QQing are bad or lazy. So let me help you...

 

Cast Enrage

Run in to the main body of mobs cast smash.

Force Charge ranged mob

Run around it make it turn it's back to the other mobs

FORCE PUSH it into other mobs

Run into group aoe taunt then smash or saber swipe.

 

 

This isn't hard, also our mitigation destroys BHs so stop saying BHs can do everything we can Nightmare modes Juggs are preferred main tanks for a reason.

[Noth]

Well thats nice that they can get aggro at range better than a Jugg but how does that impact the question at hand? I thought the issue was Juggs needed to be able to coral ranged better for AoE'ing down. BH can only move 1 ranged where they want it to be, the rest of the ranged mobs targeting them will stand wherever they are and shoot at the BH just like they would a Jugg.

 

You coral mobs for AoE, the Bh does better AoE threat thus keeps threat easier. On account of a mob aggroing to someone else the BH doesn't have to move the whole group out of the AoE or wait for the mob to come back, he simply pulls them. That is more efficient. Then there are things like a ranged stun that help control range mobs and a multitude of attacks to keep threat on that ranged mob without having to move the pile out of AoE. they are simply more efficient and don't trade anything for it.

[Noth]

Not surre if the people QQing are bad or lazy. So let me help you...

 

Cast Enrage

Run in to the main body of mobs cast smash.

Force Charge ranged mob

Run around it make it turn it's back to the other mobs

FORCE PUSH it into other mobs

Run into group aoe taunt then smash or saber swipe.

 

 

This isn't hard, also our mitigation destroys BHs so stop saying BHs can do everything we can Nightmare modes Juggs are preferred main tanks for a reason.

 

Actually BH has better raw mitigation.

 

Also in your scenario the Bh charges to the main body and pulls ranged mob. No need for everything else you mention. Faster, more efficient, quicker mobs kills and thus less overall healing needed. while you just blew a minute cooldown, a 45 second cooldown, pulled mobs away from possible AoE, blew another 45 second cooldown.

 

Mind citing source for juggs being preferred in nightmare because everywhere I look Juggs have been stated to be meh in nightmare.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Noth

[CLASSlFlED]

QFT

I've been saying this all along. We don't need force pull. So what if another class has it or it "use" to be ours. Can every tank class in WoW death grip like a DK? No. Stop asking to be a clone / replica of other classes and learn to play jugg.

 

Deathknights can't charge.

[Raddpuppy]

QFT

I've been saying this all along. We don't need force pull. So what if another class has it or it "use" to be ours. Can every tank class in WoW death grip like a DK? No. Stop asking to be a clone / replica of other classes and learn to play jugg.

 

I agree lol. If we had force pull then escaping us would be pretty hard without your team helping alot.