QuadsOfSteel Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) When someone says in their post, "I come from this game or that game" it helps you identify the people who play this game because they like MMOs, and the people who play it because they like star wars. 2 completely different sets of opinions and knowledge. so in a post like this where we're talking about a standard MMO feature, id rather hear from the guy who played EQ on this particular matter than the guy who plays just because its star wars. Edited January 4, 2012 by QuadsOfSteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonix Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 what i read between the lines in every single negative response is that i dont want to get called out on my slacking or i don't want to get better. Oh you little self righteous you, you are so cute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerafyrm#Kerafyrm_-_The_Sleeper No real-time logging. No healing add-ons. No raid frames. All it took was people committed to finding a way to accommodate for mechanics of an encounter that was, by design, supposed to be unbeatable. So just stop being bad, sack up, and learn to raid. We should go back to text based games. You don't NEED graphical representation to play the game. This is proven by older games. ^ This is you Oh, except you included the obligatory 'you're bad' statement, which is very ironic since people who post things like this are usually very bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuadsOfSteel Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 We should go back to text based games. You don't NEED graphical representation to play the game. This is proven by older games. . Zmuds for life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zootzoot Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerafyrm#Kerafyrm_-_The_Sleeper No real-time logging. No healing add-ons. No raid frames. All it took was people committed to finding a way to accommodate for mechanics of an encounter that was, by design, supposed to be unbeatable. So just stop being bad, sack up, and learn to raid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lindbergh ........faced many challenges including skimming over both storm clouds at 10,000 feet (3,000 m) and wave tops at as low at 10 ft (3.0 m), fighting icing, flying blind through fog for several hours, and navigating only by the stars (whenever visible) and "dead reckoning" before landing at Le Bourget Airport at 10:22 PM on Saturday, May 21.[47] No GPS. No Jet Engines. No Radar. All it took was a person committed to finding a way to accommodate for mechanics of the era to do something that was supposed to be un-doable. So stop being bad, sack up and learn to fly a prop plane when you want to fly from New York to Paris. Edited January 4, 2012 by zootzoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrmexaw Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 We should go back to text based games. You don't NEED graphical representation to play the game. This is proven by older games. ^ This is you Oh, except you included the obligatory 'you're bad' statement, which is very ironic since people who post things like this are usually very bad. by refusing to be monitored you imply you have something to hide ... trying to get carried are we ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 by refusing to be monitored you imply you have something to hide ... trying to get carried are we ? Reread my pots and the post I quoted, as well as the quote I posted by GZ and give it another go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeeDeh Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 name an mmo that didnt have combat logs Lineage 2. That game took balls to play. Good players were good players because they could see/read/feel the situation and use their brain to gain advantage. They didn't need to read a combat log to see that disabled healers are not able to heal. That slowed ranged classes can't escape melee. That overzealous mages can easily pull aggro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGonzoJoe Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) We should go back to text based games. You don't NEED graphical representation to play the game. This is proven by older games. ^ This is you Oh, except you included the obligatory 'you're bad' statement, which is very ironic since people who post things like this are usually very bad. I'm far from a bad. I'm not world class by any means, but I've always pushed towards seeing new content in mmos, and that means I've been raiding my *** off for more years than I care to admit. I also frequent meta-data sites, compare my performance with top world players, evaluate my performance on a per-encounter/pull basis, and strive to use every tool at my disposal to improve my play. But to come out and say that because the tools one is used to don't exist in a new game, it is going to cripple PvE is absurd. The people who are dedicated to progressing through MMO content will use what's available to them, but won't wait for advanced add-ons and real-time tracking to be available to start raiding. So yes, I think people who find meta-data and idiot-buttons on their raid frames to be NECESSARY are sub-par raiders. They're convenient, but by no means are they deal-breakers to the people who want to raid. edit: grammar Edited January 4, 2012 by TheGonzoJoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mufutiz Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Proberly because they dont want this game turning into World of Warcraft because it will bring out all the elitest jerks & arogant know it alls that think they are higher then everyone else if they do decided to bring it out they should make the logs private and non shareable so others cant see So instead the plan is to alienate many good players who care about the finer aspects of an MMO? If I want to geek it out with a single player RPG I can play a single player game. I don't want to min/max a throw-away character I play through the game with once. It is an absolute must-have in an MMO though for many players and it does require some basic tools (like a functional combat log...). I don't care that much about ingame addons to be honest, once a log is supplied combat parsing will be available and that is good enough for me. I really need the combat log though, regardless of parsing. It is an absolute key feature and it is missing...what the ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedgyth Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Because people will start testing skills and talent points and finding they do not work as intended, are bugged or abilities have weird or complex coefficient making them work in ways the community will disprove of..... then we get theory crafting and abilities are broke/bugged threads and the forums drown in a sea of despair and negativity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGonzoJoe Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I really need the combat log though, regardless of parsing. It is an absolute key feature and it is missing...what the ****. That's true. Combat Logging not being in is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azhrione Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm hesitant to respond to this thread after seven pages, however there have been a bunch of emotional and thus irrational comments against combat logs. There are some very valid and important reasons to have combat logs be available to players for analysis. First and perhaps the most important is that we are the players are the best quality unit on the planet. For example if I take a talent point that gives an ability a 30% critical chance, but testing shows it is only landing for a critical 15% of the time, then that is a bug and it needs to be corrected. Chances of that being caught eventually internally are fairly high, but the player base itself will find it a lot quicker and lead to a faster resolution. Having hard numbers to back up relevant data carries a lot more weight than anecdotal evidence. Historical trending in other games proves that this is of tremendous help to development teams. Next reason has to do with what the OP was talking about and that is gimmick raiding. Encounters in many raids are gimmick based, and this is something that has been going on in MMOs for a long time and SWTOR has given no evidence to be moving away from the paradigm. Examples of combat logs being required to at minimum decipher encounters are innumerable, and there are plenty of examples from other games where without a combat log, add-on, or exploit some encounters were basically impossible for even the best gamers. Old school examples would be Xegony or The Rathe Council in EQ, with more modern examples from WOW being pre-expansion Vaelastrasz or Patchwerk. Right now SWTOR doesn't have any encounters that I know of that have any game breaking gimmicks, but since they are continuing to use gimmick encounters I assume they will continue with the overall industry trend. Modification of the UI is another sore point, and a lot of people mix up the idea of modifying the existing UI to suit taste and creating add-ons to change the gameplay experience. The first is a very valid and it is almost criminal that we were not at least given a scale slider for the UI or the ability to change font size for text. Elimination of unwanted or unused UI artifacts, scaling, and adjustable placement should be a top priority for Bioware in upcoming patches. Add-ons are another story entirely, I'm OK with them in principal if they compensate for a deficit in the default UI. For example, adding in a damage meter or bag organization, I'm OK with that since it is something that is not within the default UI. However adding exploitative functionality is another thing entirely, Decursive or even something as mundane as Clique, might be going too far as it fundamentally changes gameplay. Again I am hesitant to post this here because I don't think I will get rational responses, but maybe it clears up the argument for someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galtin Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerafyrm#Kerafyrm_-_The_Sleeper No real-time logging. No healing add-ons. No raid frames. All it took was people committed to finding a way to accommodate for mechanics of an encounter that was, by design, supposed to be unbeatable. So just stop being bad, sack up, and learn to raid. I see what you did there. There was no real time logging in EQ1 back then but there were combat logs that could be analyzed after the fight was over to figure out what all happened during the encounter. Do you think FoH, LoS and Afterlife were just winging it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
einherjar_LC Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Because you don't need these "tools" to play this easy of a game? How can you not manage threat without a meter? Is the boss attacking you the tank? You're managing threat. Turn the boss around so his back is to your group. If he faces your group, your tank needs to step it up. Is the boss dead? Then you and your companions are doing sufficient DPS, no meter needed. No need ruin the game so the spreadsheet players can squeek .01 more DPS out of their spec. As a group leader, if you cannot tell someone is not carrying their weight, get better at being a group leader. It's not hard to figure out. People have just gotten used to having crutches. Are you companions dead? Then your healer is doing a good job. I'm not saying the UI doesn't need help, but add-ons ruin games IMO and I've seen it happen many times. WoW and AC1 come to mind. Edited January 4, 2012 by einherjar_LC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGonzoJoe Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lindbergh ........faced many challenges including skimming over both storm clouds at 10,000 feet (3,000 m) and wave tops at as low at 10 ft (3.0 m), fighting icing, flying blind through fog for several hours, and navigating only by the stars (whenever visible) and "dead reckoning" before landing at Le Bourget Airport at 10:22 PM on Saturday, May 21.[47] No GPS. No Jet Engines. No Radar. All it took was a person committed to finding a way to accommodate for mechanics of the era to do something that was supposed to be un-doable. So stop being bad, sack up and learn to fly a prop plane when you want to fly from New York to Paris. Well done. I chuckled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaashheart Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I see what you did there. There was no real time logging in EQ1 back then but there were combat logs that could be analyzed after the fight was over to figure out what all happened during the encounter. Do you think FoH, LoS and Afterlife were just winging it? Yeah thats true, EQ used to log to a text file which you could load up afterwards, I actually used a DataEase DB to anaylse it... man I feel old... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) since when raiding became a "my opinion is higher than yours?" i raided naxx when it was 40man. am i god now? @OP: we do not need combat log. MC 40 here, while Pally buffs were 5 min. We were just buff bots. Therefore, my opinion must matter! amirite? On another note, as a pvp'er I wouldn't mind a Combat Log. Would be nice to know what it was that crit me for 3-4k so I know what to watch out for. Edited January 4, 2012 by Lazorous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mufutiz Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Because you don't need these "tools" to play this easy of a game I don't even really understand why people bundle up the combat log and thrid party addons, like in the title of this thread... they are not the same thing, not even close. Obviously a combat log will lead to parsing outside the game and I worry that is why there is no combat log yet... it is not an acceptable reason for me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm far from a bad. I'm not world class by any means, but I've always pushed towards seeing new content in mmos, and that means I've been raiding my *** off for more years than I care to admit. I also frequent meta-data sites, compare my performance with top world players, evaluate my performance on a per-encounter/pull basis, and strive to use every tool at my disposal to improve my play. But to come out and say that because the tools one is used to don't exist in a new game, it is going to cripple PvE is absurd. The people who are dedicated to progressing through MMO content will use what's available to them, but won't wait for it to be available to start raiding. So yes, I think people who find meta-data and idiot-buttons on their raid frames to be NECESSARY are sub-par raiders. They're convenient, but by no means are they deal-breakers to the people who want to raid. edit: grammar I never said it's a dealbreaker. However, it is silly to defend what is a lacking of a standard feature (like a combat log, for christ sake) by comparing it to a game that was released over a decade ago. It's like if Bethesda did a poor job with Skyrim and a bunch of people said "well hey, Morrowind didn't have these things and it was a good game!" When people say something as stupid as people are bad for wanting a combat log or the ability to mouseover that screams ignorance to me. I mean, it's clear you have no idea what you're on about when you say things like "idiot-buttons on their raid frames" as if this describes anything anyone is asking for. But really, I find it particularly revealing that you completely ignored my appropriate analogy. Do you think a text-based MMO would be as good as a game with graphical representation? Do you think there's maybe a reason no one makes them anymore? Everquest is so damn old, when you say this game is OK because a game that's over a decade old doesn't have those features either you're basically insulting the game and I'm not sure you even know you're doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valeena Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) I want addon capabilities for this game and a combat log. I'm not *dying* with out them right now, but it's def a "want", not so much a "need." I'm a healer, and the default raid frames are awful. Anyone who says any different...bless your heart. Not to mention I play on a laptop, so my default UI is bulky and I would prefer a more "simple" and less cluttered UI. I want a combat log to understand certain things, what killed me, what skills/abilities to look out for, etc. For example, Person A: "What just one shot you?" Person B: "Oh, it was *insert spell name*" Person A: "Okay, I'll be sure to use *insert cooldown* when I see *insert spell name* being cast/used." I am NOT asking for a Deadly Boss Mods or any addons that play the game for me. If you don't want to use addons, that's fine. However, I don't think it's fair to punish those of us that do. There isn't even an option to currently scale or move our default UI, so it for sure needs work. Half of the time I'm missing players in my raid frames (/facepalm) and it's difficult to see debuffs, amongst a mountain of other problems. It's not worth unsubbing over though, but it's frustrating for sure. PS: I'm not stomping my feet like a 5 year old and telling Bioware "NOW! GIVE ME THIS NOW!!!" - It'd just be cool if one day it'll be offered. Edited January 4, 2012 by Valeena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brokeit Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 A full combat log is needed. Self only is only good for Theorycrafting. How do you know that a player isn't pulling his or her weight exactly? Maybe their just using their auto attack and an occasional ability. In the heat of combat you can't really tell if someone is maxing their damage. Also...a full Combat Log would allow for future addons to display info from the log in a more legible manner. Most addons use the Combat Log to gather the info they need. There are many other factors that determine if a person is doing as they should. If they're dying in the first 5 seconds of an encounter, standing in aoes, standing there looking like an idiot when low on resources (you have fillers for that), sitting there with full or no resources. This is a pretty heavilly resource based game, you can easilly tell if people are doing what they should by monitoring their resource usage in the raid/party frames. If a BH is at 0 for an extended period of time they're wrong, if a jedi is at max for too long they're wrong etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGonzoJoe Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I see what you did there. There was no real time logging in EQ1 back then but there were combat logs that could be analyzed after the fight was over to figure out what all happened during the encounter. Do you think FoH, LoS and Afterlife were just winging it? You have a point there. I mentioned in a post above basic Combat logging is pretty important, and I didn't gather from the OP that he was referring to that. Mea culpa. Also, they kinda did wing it. They benefited from other servers awakening him first, so they had an idea what was going to happen, so they just kept throwing bodies at him with an army of click-stick rezzers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asung Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Give us a combat log would expose many non registering hits that would cause mass panic. See my post for my suspicions! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=130298 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banul Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I've taken the time to create a sure-fire damage meter for you: Q1: Is the thing dead yet? A1 - Yes: You are doing sufficient damage. A2 - No: You are not doing sufficient damage. Revert to Q1. Happy now? This doesn't give enough information as to why your not doing enough damage, and how you can improve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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