Ok all this QQing about Ops/scoundrel need to stop

[Mazikeen]

Yes, you suck for having most if not all of your HP drained before you can react.Clearly a L2P issue.

 

Obviously you guys need to kill everyone in a stun cause you suck outside stealth, that's not a L2P issue, that's pure skill there, it's just too hard to actually fight players, you weren't designed for that, right?

 

1. They were designed to be an out-of-stealth burst class

2. Stealthers show before they pop you. It's not BioWares fault you don't pay attention

3. Points 1 and 2 make this a L2P issue

[Ashanor]

sticks and stones. your retorts are irrelevant to the point. the class is broken. there are enough videos and threads to supply ample evidence. You can dodge and deflect it all you want... it is truth.

 

No more broken than any other class. If you see big crits from ops and scoundrels, it is an issue of the broken consumable issue and no diminishing returns from stacking + consumables. Even then, I really don't think a whole 6k is an issue considering geared players seem to have 16-20k health and ops and scoundrels damage after that initial burst is super low.. not to mention you have cc immunity after that knock down.

[Scelerant]

sticks and stones. your retorts are irrelevant to the point. the class is broken. there are enough videos and threads to supply ample evidence. You can dodge and deflect it all you want... it is truth.

 

Here is the thing, the number of threads mean nothing, just because something is a popular opinion doesn't mean that it is an accurate opinion. That's all this forum is, opinion. I remember back when this forum had over 100 "go sandbox" threads, doesn't mean it was a good idea. When you say "there are this many threads" you are saying "This many anonymous people posted this opinion." hardly conclusive evidence is it?

 

I think you are confusing evidence with hearsay and cognitive bias as "facts" or "truth" in this case would unfortunately for you require objective data and threads as I said are worthless in this regard since nobody makes an objective nerf thread, one could even argue that the expression "Objective nerf thread" is an oxymoron.

 

As for the video, its fully possible to create quite a few situations where you get things that look extreme but really aren't. I mean if you looked at Terrio or whatever his name is and his "elite skilled PvP" videos, they look impressive until you realize he's just ganking people 20 levels below him.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Scelerant

[Ashanor]

Here is the thing, the number of threads mean nothing, just because something is a popular opinion doesn't mean that it is an accurate opinion. That's all this forum is, opinion. I remember back when this forum had over 100 "go sandbox" threads, doesn't mean it was a good idea. When you say "there are this many threads" you are saying "This many anonymous people posted this opinion." hardly conclusive evidence is it?

 

I think you are confusing evidence with hearsay and cognitive bias as "facts" or "truth" in this case would unfortunately for you require objective data and threads as I said are worthless in this regard since nobody makes an objective nerf thread, one could even argue that the expression "Objective nerf thread" is an oxymoron.

 

As for the video, its fully possible to create quite a few situations where you get things that look extreme but really aren't. I mean if you looked at Terrio or whatever his name is and his "elite skilled PvP" videos, they look impressive until you realize he's just ganking people 20 levels below him.

 

Not to mention, stealthers are always hated in every game simply because they have the ability to pick and choose fights. The only way stealthers won't be complained about is if they are entirely useless. Trust me, if Op/Scoundrel got nerfed, Assassin/Shadow would be next on the chopping block.

 

On a side note, has anyone seen that Gunslinger PvP video where the guy says watch the health bars and is killing people in 3-4 seconds? Why is that not being complained about? lol Just out of curiosity. Is it because they can't stealth? Oops, I may be on to something.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Ashanor

[Mazikeen]

Not to mention, stealthers are always hated in every game simply because they have the ability to pick and choose fights. The only way stealthers won't be complained about is if they are entirely useless. Trust me, if Op/Scoundrel got nerfed, Assassin/Shadow would be next on the chopping block.

 

This too

 

Rogues were complained about in WoW from day 1 and were still being complained about when I left right before Cata came out (no way was I buying that xpack)

[Mursie]

Says who, you?

 

The warfronts are bolstered to allow relatively equal terms in regard to gameplay. I've heard constantly in other MMOs how healers are almost impossible to kill. Now there is a class that evens the playing field. How fun is a game when you can't kill the healers and can't kill the DPS because the healers can heal two people at once?

 

I'm sorry things are relatively equal now and you cannot adjust. I'll bake you some cookies

 

if you think this statement "When a healer in our guild is given guard, the operative is challenged for a 30% dmg debuff, and the healer is wearing full champ gear at valor rank 57, there is no single class that should man handle that healer within seconds" should occur in game.. then arguing with you is pointless. That is the very definition of broken.. and teamplay and tactics are irrelevant when that situation is allowed to occur.

[Mazikeen]

if you think this statement "When a healer in our guild is given guard, the operative is challenged for a 30% dmg debuff, and the healer is wearing full champ gear at valor rank 57, there is no single class that should man handle that healer within seconds" should occur in game.. then arguing with you is pointless. That is the very definition of broken.. and teamplay and tactics are irrelevant when that situation is allowed to occur.

 

You never specified what 'man handle' means in your little world. I manhandle people on my BH all the time. This doesn't mean I 2-shot them but I do make their lives quite miserable

 

What are you referring to? A 6-second kill, the stun, interrupt and knockdown, what? Your arguments are useless if you don't offer some specifics

[BDutch]

Rogues were complained about in WoW from day 1 and were still being complained about when I left right before Cata came out (no way was I buying that xpack)

 

With good reason too. It was relatively easy to stunlock all but a few from 100-0. The only difference I can think of was that I wasn't able to cleanse myself of DoTs until CoS came out later and everyone had triple their HP.

Edited January 4, 2012 by BDutch

[Mursie]

You never specified what 'man handle' means in your little world. I manhandle people on my BH all the time. This doesn't mean I 2-shot them but I do make their lives quite miserable

 

What are you referring to? A 6-second kill, the stun, interrupt and knockdown, what? Your arguments are useless if you don't offer some specifics

 

after 16 pages and countless posts.. if you are unsure about the specifics then re-iterating them again would be a pointless endeavor.

[fendergibson]

It's not balanced when they give a class enough burst to instakill people, because they have a bit less then average sustained dmg. Then they need to reduce the burst a good amount, and rather increase the sustained dmg.

 

Ops have OP burst atm, people trying to defend it are just playing one themselves, or have not faced an ops that knows how to play his/her class.

Edited January 4, 2012 by fendergibson

[Bullsith]

1. They were designed to be an out-of-stealth burst class

2. Stealthers show before they pop you. It's not BioWares fault you don't pay attention

3. Points 1 and 2 make this a L2P issue

 

1. Ok, so let them be that, make them have to fight out of stealth, the opener being a slight advantage, not the decisive move.

 

2. If you let someone take you out of stealth, you know, the thing I'm not supposed to see until it's too late, is not a L2P isse? I suppse you must have been one of those rogues in WoW asking Blizz to nerf fires cause it took them out of stealth when they ran through it.

 

Again let me make sure I got this right. You are basing your whole reasoning on the split second a stealth class shows?

 

Ok, man, just say you love your OP class and we can understand each other, but the fact you play an OP eazymode, ******* friendly, class, stays.

[Scelerant]

if you think this statement "When a healer in our guild is given guard, the operative is challenged for a 30% dmg debuff, and the healer is wearing full champ gear at valor rank 57, there is no single class that should man handle that healer within seconds" should occur in game.. then arguing with you is pointless. That is the very definition of broken.. and teamplay and tactics are irrelevant when that situation is allowed to occur.

 

Now "manhandle" isn't well defined, but if we assume "manhandle" means taking off 75% out of a 14000 health pool, IE 10500 damage and "seconds" means 5 seconds, that requires a dps of a little over 2000, if we add guard to that the person in question would have to do roughly 3k dps.

 

Now, I think its more likely that your tank and healer are nubs and were too far apart for guard to actually work meaning that like the spoon, there was no guard. The alternative is that the operative did about 15000 damage in the span of 3 global cool downs and I can only see that being possible if there was heavy stim use, trinket and CD popping going on, plus multiple attacks critting and that's not exactly a reason to nerf a class.

[Mazikeen]

Ok, man, just say you love your OP class and we can understand each other, but the fact you play an OP eazymode, ******* friendly, class, stays.

 

FYI, I don't play an Op. I tried, have one at 17, not interesting to me. Just because I see no issue with the class playing as it's designed doesn't mean I play one

 

That's like saying because I think the US government is crap I must be a terrorist. Spectacular reasoning there

[Dirtydurst]

The class inherently has a distinct advantage due to the nature of their damage and how they've been designed.

 

If you know anything about PvP, getting kills is about managing and forcing cooldowns and setting up burst opportunities. Ops/Scound have AMAZING burst. It's not just good, it's *********** off the wall awesome and there is no way to deny that.

 

Sure, the sustained damage is slightly below average - but there is no need for sustained damaged when you can 100-0 someone in 8 seconds.

 

Here's what Bioware should do:

Reduce the armor mitigation on Acid Blade to 30% (from 50%) - this actually makes it harder for them to kill tanks - which IMO is the way it should be, reduce the damage on Hidden Strike by 50%, and make Shiv cost 10 energy. Their burst is still going to be great - but it will be slightly scaled back and they will be less effective vs tanks. This seems more than reasonable to me.

[Toggy]

FYI, I don't play an Op. I tried, have one at 17, not interesting to me. Just because I see no issue with the class playing as it's designed doesn't mean I play one

 

That's like saying because I think the US government is crap I must be a terrorist. Spectacular reasoning there

 

I play a level 50 Op, we are over powered.

 

 

See what I did there?

[BDutch]

The class inherently has a distinct advantage due to the nature of their damage and how they've been designed.

 

If you know anything about PvP, getting kills is about managing and forcing cooldowns and setting up burst opportunities. Ops/Scound have AMAZING burst. It's not just good, it's *********** off the wall awesome and there is no way to deny that.

 

Sure, the sustained damage is slightly below average - but there is no need for sustained damaged when you can 100-0 someone in 8 seconds.

 

Here's what Bioware should do:

Reduce the armor mitigation on Acid Blade to 30% (from 50%) - this actually makes it harder for them to kill tanks - which IMO is the way it should be, reduce the damage on Hidden Strike by 50%, and make Shiv cost 10 energy. Their burst is still going to be great - but it will be slightly scaled back and they will be less effective vs tanks. This seems more than reasonable to me.

 

I agree with something along those lines... if nothing else I wish the power was just redistributed a bit through the rest of the tree. Acid Blade is such a night and day difference in power. Also, if it doesn't require energy, a GCD, or break stealth then they might as well just apply it to every Ambush/Backstab automatically.

[Spy_WarHammer]

The energy effecincy of Oprative and Scoundrels is something that baffles me. I have a 50Shadow, Valor 50+, and when I watch vids of Opratives its like they arn't even worried about how much their abilities cost. So I rolled one..... and Medium armor, self heals, SELF ENERGY BUFF!!, aoe CC, 50% armor ignore buff, and stealth make for a class that is too good on paper not to play........or nerf:cool:.

[Laikacosmo]

I play a level 50 Op, we are over powered.

 

 

See what I did there?

 

Told the truth?

[BDutch]

The energy effecincy of Oprative and Scoundrels is something that baffles me. I have a 50Shadow, Valor 50+, and when I watch vids of Opratives its like they arn't even worried about how much their abilities cost. So I rolled one..... and Medium armor, self heals, SELF ENERGY BUFF!!, aoe CC, 50% armor ignore buff, and stealth make for a class that is too good on paper not to play........or nerf:cool:.

 

It all comes down to the last ability on one tree. You can't heal effectively if you take that, and you take a massive DPS hit if you don't. Energy usage on my scoundrel certainly seems a lot more forgiving than my slinger, but only on one of the 3 specs, (the one with the big DPS that people are complaining about).

[Zarovich]

Check out this gem

 

 

All I can say is WOW!! I wanted to roll an Operative after watching that video. This guy was burning down 50 tanks in short order....geez. This guy was killing two players by himself. He would kill the first one before he could stand up from the opener then take care of the next one.

[Mursie]

The energy effecincy of Oprative and Scoundrels is something that baffles me. I have a 50Shadow, Valor 50+, and when I watch vids of Opratives its like they arn't even worried about how much their abilities cost. So I rolled one..... and Medium armor, self heals, SELF ENERGY BUFF!!, aoe CC, 50% armor ignore buff, and stealth make for a class that is too good on paper not to play........or nerf:cool:.

 

in truth..all shadows... who inherently rolled for a rogue class.. will no doubt go ops/scoundrel very soon. the disparity between the two in the game's current state is laughable. don't get me wrong... shadow/assassin can be very good toons... but when compared with an op/scoundrel there is no comparison. take everything a shadow has... give it self heals... armor pen... medium armor...more cc... and higher burst... congratulations... you have an op/scoundrel.

[Toggy]

in truth..all shadows... who inherently rolled for a rogue class.. will no doubt go ops/scoundrel very soon. the disparity between the two in the game's current state is laughable. don't get me wrong... shadow/assassin can be very good toons... but when compared with an op/scoundrel there is no comparison. take everything a shadow has... give it self heals... armor pen... medium armor...more cc... and higher burst... congratulations... you have an op/scoundrel.

 

Sounds nice. :-p

[Xezkaiel]

Can people stop QQing about Ops/scoundrel the class is not Op it is working the way it should(high out of stealth burst sub par sustained damage)

 

I'm going to give you the exact reasons why they are not Op for the people that feel no good argument has been made.

 

QQ #1 They have too much burst damage and it needs to be toned down.

 

- have you played a lvl 10-35 Op/scoundrel before they get their burst? The class is lacking in sustained damage and this was done for a reason to balance with their burst. If you remeber back to beta bioware actually nerfed the Op sustained damsge(lacerate, talented shiv, collateral strikes, corrosive dart). So if bioware was to also nerf the burst damage you would be left a gimped class.

 

QQ #2 They have to much control out of stealth.

 

- they need the control out of stealth because they dont have a GAP CLOSER their is no real way to quickly close the gap on a ranged class. So if you take away that control Ops would just get knockback and rooted after their opening attack and be sitting ducks for range classes. (again play a lvl 10-35 Ops and you will know what im talking about)

 

-Also the knockdown gives you a full resolve bar which means you can cc the brains out of an Op and they can only root you for two secs. This gives you a chance to catch up on damage not to mention use your bubble to mitigate already sub par sustained damage.

 

-USE YOUR CC BREAK(that is all)

 

QQ #3 They can just vanish when things arent going their way

 

-First its on a 2 min cooldown, second assassins/shadows also get this ability so I dont know why it would only make Ops/ soundrels so OP, third two hidden strike attacks from cloaking screen is a one shot pony, plus they have to wait for your resolve to go down to get the knockdown effect again. All in all i dont see what the QQ is about this they dont get a knockback ability, a force speed or a friendly force jump type of ability so they should have some way to escape a bad situation.

 

QQ #4 I can beat any other class but Ops/scoundrel can always kill me.

 

-This is just crying about stealth classes. Most of the people that say this are probably Sorcs/Mercs(mirror) and they are used to being able to facroll from 30m but dont have good reactions when a melee all of a sudden is in their face. All I can say to yall is L2P.

 

 

Final: They have high burst/control for a reason without it not only will they be highly gimped but they will be useless in objective PvP like huttball becuase right now they are good defenders who can help stop the ball carrier flat. But if you take that away they dont have a speed ability, knockback, or a jump ability so their wouldn't be any point in picking them.

 

If you nerf operative/sorc then people will cry about Mercs/assassins. Then if you nerf them people will cry about Powertech/snipers and the cycle goes on and on nerfs hardly ever end well. The only thing that needs to happen IMO for abalance is Jugg/guardian needs to get more cc breaks and a boost in damage high up in their dps tree.

 

I agree 100% and have tried to make this point across the forums but noone seems to listen. All most ppl care about is their inability to handle a certain class. I will say being 3 shotted by an opereative is discouraging, but if he tries to nuke me and I live, he may be screwed, and if he starts his rotation on me and a friend of mine walks up on him, he is screwed. OPs and scoundrels are far from over powered. Just really good in a 1v1 if they get the jump on you.

[Aneu]

If you want to see insane, watch this

even kebab (the person playing) thinks its insane.

[Deridia]

All I can say is WOW!! I wanted to roll an Operative after watching that video. This guy was burning down 50 tanks in short order....geez. This guy was killing two players by himself. He would kill the first one before he could stand up from the opener then take care of the next one.

 

unfortunately (or fortunately in my case) what you are describing is a technique that every decent player can use.

 

I routinely do this with my assassin as well. Let's not cry for nerfs, what you should be trying to do is raise the level of your game to compete, rather than having the devs dumb down the game for lesser skill levels.

 

*note* I do not play an op so if there is some broken mechanic that allows them to own so hard i apologize, but we can't punish an entire class because some people micromanage their class to perfection.