The Expertise stat has to go...

[SandTrout]

Cuz then your basically telling raiders that all the hard work and grouping involved in raiding doesnt yield the best gear for there respective end-game. You basically tell them that trading daily quests in ilum is = to nightmare soa kills. I mean are you that narrow sighted?

 

Are you so narrow sighted that you cannot see the benefit that you would gain from this? Ok, so PvP gears up a little faster than PvE. Does that hurt you? No. You still get your gear at a rate that you considered acceptable before the change, even if someone else is getting it faster than you now.

 

Does needing to grind PvP for top end gear after you've already achieved top-end PvE gear hurt you? Yes. It takes more time performing at sub-par levels before you can reach the point where your only real limitation is your spec and personal skill.

 

I enjoy raids because their fun. If they're so much of a chore for you that you need those rewards to prove that the raid you beat was worth it, you've got major issues that I'm not licensed to treat.

[SandTrout]

The biggest problem and ive said this in previous posts is everyone wants to instantly be the hero. YOU are not the HERO until you EARN the gear to be the HERO. Until this point in time you are a peon, a grunt, a footman. You are the person who assists the HERO. you are the person who STOPS the bomb plant while your HERO (the guy who can actually kill stuff) is doing his thing. And through your contributions and aiding of someone who has established themselves as a force on the battlefield you will eventually be rewarded with the same gear and then guess what...YOUR A F ING HERO NOW !!!!!!!

and leveling through 50 levels of content isn't enough to have earned the role of a hero?

 

Dude, you need to calm down, take your medicine, and maybe call your therapist.

[Gryn]

Raid gear vs people who do not want to raid

 

WoW calls it Resilience

Rift calls it Valor

TOR calls it Expertise

 

It's stupid in any language. PvP stats push people to rush to endgame so they can be "pro"... then the actual good players hit 50... have learned how to counter a LOT of the players that already have all their gear... so when they hit 50 and get their PvP gear they rip these old guard 50's to shreds. Then the old 50's leave the game cause now "their class is gimped" ... happens every game.

[Khoraji]

I'll be perfectly honest, this sounds like an excuse from someone who lacks skill, and wants a game they can win without it. That's probably not how you meant it, but that's what I read it as.

 

All PvP should be largely determined by skill because that is the point of PvP, to test your skills against the most dangerous prey: another human. You don't need to test your gear to know it's better than other gear, it has numbers on it. If you just wanted PvP to be about levels and gear, you should create a game that calculates out the stats of your gear and build and that of your opponent, and just tells you who the winner is without having the hassle of playing a warzone.

 

Claiming that PvP should be about gear because it is a Role Playing Game, well... makes about this much sense.

 

Wanting to turn PvP into a gear pissing match (granted it already is one, much to my chagrin) is misguided, at the least.

 

Let me try and put this another way.

 

MMO PvP "Skill" is a joke compared to games made for PvP like FPS. One of the most important things in PvP for me is how much better the BEST players are compared to the average/worst players. This is what makes the game fun. It gives me something to work towards, something to measure myself against. In an MMO with everyone having the same gear and similar spells there really cant be that much of a difference. Skill just does not have the same effect in an MMO. Sure some people may be a bit better at handling tough situations or reacting slightly faster than the *******, but nothing compared to a good competitive FPS.

 

Put up the best CS team against some pub scrubs and the best team will win every time, most of the time without losing a single person. Now do the same in an MMO where all the gear is the same, the scrubs will still be able to make it close here and there. There just isnt enough disparity between the skill levels. So in comes expertise.

 

Its just like no amount of skill will let a non-geared team beat a hard-mode raid. It just won't happen, the point of an MMO is to gear up/level up and get the best stuff so your character is better.

[SandTrout]

So, just allow the PvPers to gain access to the top-tier Rakata gear via the PvP vendors that already exist without introducing an unneeded layer of segregation between PvP and PvE gear.

 

Top end PvP gear = Top end PvE gear. If the Raiders want to come play PvP, there's no fear because the PvPers have the SAME GEAR.

 

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? The best PvE gear is available from the vendors on the Fleet. The best PvP gear is available from the vendors on the fleet. PvP has this BS stat attached to make up for slightly lower end/primary stats. Easy fix, get rid of the BS stat and give the battlemaster equipment the same stats as rakata equipment, unless you're the maniac above who's ego is defined by his character's gear.

[AidenPryde]

So, just allow the PvPers to gain access to the top-tier Rakata gear via the PvP vendors that already exist without introducing an unneeded layer of segregation between PvP and PvE gear.

 

Top end PvP gear = Top end PvE gear. If the Raiders want to come play PvP, there's no fear because the PvPers have the SAME GEAR.

 

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? The best PvE gear is available from the vendors on the Fleet. The best PvP gear is available from the vendors on the fleet. PvP has this BS stat attached to make up for slightly lower end/primary stats. Easy fix, get rid of the BS stat and give the battlemaster equipment the same stats as rakata equipment, unless you're the maniac above who's ego is defined by his character's gear.

 

I dunno. Wax in eyes I guess.

 

Really don't know why its hard to grasp = PVE time = PvP time.

[SandTrout]

I dunno. Wax in eyes I guess.

 

Really don't know why its hard to grasp = PVE time = PvP time.

Quite. Keep things simple where they don't need to be complicated.

 

No expertise, equal stats, move on.

[CommandoPower]

FPS games should be about player skill, i was talking about MMORPG PvP which should be more about gear and leveling. Just because something is labeled PVP doesnt mean you have to make every character the same for balance sake. That is what MMO's are all about, leveling, gear, etc. Or else why play an MMO if all it is is an FPS with auto-targeting and an overhead view? Lets just give everyone the same abilities, same gear, same weapons, after all that is the most balanced approach right?

 

If you don't want gear advantages in an MMO, i suggest Counter-Strike or games like it where you are meant to be evenly "geared". This is an RPG.

 

Why play something competitively if it's all about how much time you spend? When it's not about skill what is the point at all? The person who has no life, no gf/bf, possibly even no job leeching off of someone else is going to win hands down in that case.

 

You're also WRONG. Leveling, gear, and team play is what all PVE is about. After all what else does PVE have to keep you playing? It's a movie and a ride. It never changes, never varies, cannot adapt, and relies on unfair advantages to even be remotely challenging. They need to make you do the same content repeatedly and chase some small token shiny to give it any real re-playability.

 

 

 

PVP in MMORPG's is a different beast all together and is quite independent of gear. It's constantly evolving and changing and every run will be a different experience.

There is far more PVP strategy in a well designed MMORPG than there will ever be in a FPS. If you do not believe this you likely have not experienced properly done MMORPG PVP.

 

Lets just give everyone the same abilities, same gear, same weapons, after all that is the most balanced approach right?

 

Ironically that is EXACTLY what GW 2 is doing for some of it's competitive arena matches. Any differences in those particular matches were cosmetic.

 

 

*Rant Alert*

 

Gear based PVPer's are kind is the worst kind of PVP players out there and a big part of the reason we have not seen a truly competitive PVP MMORPG in a long time. After all why would you want that? Grinding more than other people through sheer time spent and owning them is far more fun for you then being outplayed and being owned.

 

But I don't blame you. I blame WOW. It has epically re-enforced what used to be a minority opinion in MMORPG PVP.

 

You know, back in the days where dying meant something even if it was just a long run back to the action or the high cost/recharge of a rez. Back in the days where people didn't heal up in 5 seconds after every fight, allowing well fought losses to turn a war effort even if you were outnumbered. Back in the day where people knew how to manage their aggro, buffs, and skills instead of depending on add-ons and macros.

 

Hehe. Now it's I GOTTA HAVE IT NOW OMG@!@!! *** I DIED THAT SHOULD NEVAR HAPPEN!! I NEEDZ AN IWIN BUTTON OR EVERYTHING IS OP!! WHEN I GET IT I'M THE ONLY BALANCED CLASS!!

 

Pfft. Please. A big chunk of the new MMORPG population saddens me with it's desire to be babied and feel awesome no matter how bad they are. Which is fine, as long as it's separated from those that are....I dunno....willing to learn and willing to earn their kills/cred maybe?

 

I don't play PVP to feel like a hoss. I play it to smash other people and get smashed, challenged and entertained by the competition. That's what PVP is all about.

 

 

I apologize if I got a little real here. No offense is intended to anyone except the PVP stereotype I'm taking pot shots at . /rant off.

Edited January 13, 2012 by CommandoPower

[CommandoPower]

Let me try and put this another way.

 

MMO PvP "Skill" is a joke compared to games made for PvP like FPS. One of the most important things in PvP for me is how much better the BEST players are compared to the average/worst players. This is what makes the game fun. It gives me something to work towards, something to measure myself against. In an MMO with everyone having the same gear and similar spells there really cant be that much of a difference. Skill just does not have the same effect in an MMO. Sure some people may be a bit better at handling tough situations or reacting slightly faster than the *******, but nothing compared to a good competitive FPS.

 

Put up the best CS team against some pub scrubs and the best team will win every time, most of the time without losing a single person. Now do the same in an MMO where all the gear is the same, the scrubs will still be able to make it close here and there. There just isnt enough disparity between the skill levels. So in comes expertise.

 

Its just like no amount of skill will let a non-geared team beat a hard-mode raid. It just won't happen, the point of an MMO is to gear up/level up and get the best stuff so your character is better.

 

I'll resist the urge to sing TLC snippets that rhyme with stub.

 

You've definitely never played GOOD MMORPG PVP. You've also somehow ignored some of the hardcore rolls that happen in WZ's that are nothing to do with gear or imbalance of any sort.

[Ethias]

Expertise is NOT a problem, it helps make PvP gear best for PvP over PvE gear. What IS A problem is SURGE (along with Power/Buff stacking from Biochem)! I don't understand why this is hard for people to understand. You know those 6k-9k bursts people complain about? Surge is a huge part of that!

[Ethias]

So, just allow the PvPers to gain access to the top-tier Rakata gear via the PvP vendors that already exist without introducing an unneeded layer of segregation between PvP and PvE gear.

 

Top end PvP gear = Top end PvE gear. If the Raiders want to come play PvP, there's no fear because the PvPers have the SAME GEAR.

 

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? The best PvE gear is available from the vendors on the Fleet. The best PvP gear is available from the vendors on the fleet. PvP has this BS stat attached to make up for slightly lower end/primary stats. Easy fix, get rid of the BS stat and give the battlemaster equipment the same stats as rakata equipment, unless you're the maniac above who's ego is defined by his character's gear.

 

This is an issue because you can not always put out PvP gear and PvE gear sets at the same time, can not always make them equal in difficulty, etc. In addition, this way you guarantee that the people who spend the most time PvEing will (in theory) have the best gear for PvEing, but still have OK gear for pvp if they do even a little bit of it, while the people who PvP will have the best gear for PvP, and still have OK gear for pve if they do even a little bit of it.

[rathian]

Collecting Expertise/Valor/Resilience is kinda a hazing ritual that every person has to go through in order to be completely effective within Warzones/Battlegrounds/Etc.

 

Its a period when your low on the totem pole until you actually do something about it.

Its a period when you master your class within a PvP environment.

Its a period when you learn about other classes and what the effects they have around you.

Its a period when your patience is tested and knowledge is expanded.

So when you get that gear you know what your doing with it.

 

Think of it like a stamp saying "I am patient enough to collect this gear and through collecting this gear I have proof ingame of what I am capable of. Determination, Patience, Knowledge"

 

Now the next step would be Rated Warzones and Arenas, but that kittens is a story for another time. ^_^

[Comieb]

Ive stated this before in another thread.

 

But why hasnt any other game taken the Guild Wars method of separating abilities for PvP and PvE.

 

An ability for PvE would do X amount of damage and stun the mob for Y about of time.

 

Same ability in PvP would do A amount of damage and snare or stun the player for B amount of time.

 

With there being PvP gear and PvE gear separating the abilities for different aspects would help in balancing one for PvP but not borking it for PvE.

 

It does seem like theyve somewhat gone down that path with the 30% healing reduction when you get in to PvP.

 

 

Granted you'd have to give someone a reason to wear pvp like suggesting that the PvP abilities will crit for 10x times the ability with someone not wearing a certian amount of expertise gear.

 

i dont know, i do agree however that the gear based style that seems the norm is a little tiresome

[rathian]

Ive stated this before in another thread.

 

But why hasnt any other game taken the Guild Wars method of separating abilities for PvP and PvE.

 

An ability for PvE would do X amount of damage and stun the mob for Y about of time.

 

Same ability in PvP would do A amount of damage and snare or stun the player for B amount of time.

 

With there being PvP gear and PvE gear separating the abilities for different aspects would help in balancing one for PvP but not borking it for PvE.

 

It does seem like theyve somewhat gone down that path with the 30% healing reduction when you get in to PvP.

 

 

Granted you'd have to give someone a reason to wear pvp like suggesting that the PvP abilities will crit for 10x times the ability with someone not wearing a certian amount of expertise gear.

 

i dont know, i do agree however that the gear based style that seems the norm is a little tiresome

 

I think the biggest issue would be input lag for so many abilities and maybe the concept of learning so many abilities like If I want to Kill that Assassin then X, but if I want to Kill that PvE Mob then Y but both moves do the samething.

 

Also >.< We would be two lays of bars

[Bregah]

I did not read all 51 pages, but at the minimum, there needs to be cheap to make crafted gear with expertise (if expertise is not removed) that is slightly less than the lowest expertise "earned" gear, so that new 50's don't simply give up the moment they face fully geared people in the coming weeks and months.

 

WoW added level 85 crafted resilience gear in Cata, but then were moronic about it and the mats used to make them were rare-ish and expensive, which made this introductory gear 'cost-prohibitive'.

 

But going into a BG with no resiilience vs fully geared people is/was "fun-prohibitive", and many people I know who hadn't PvP'd before would try it (later in a cycle, so they were resilience-free going up against geared people) and simply found that they died so fast they couldn't even learn what to do, and gave up.

 

TOR will be the same, I'm afraid.

 

If anything, ALL gear should just be equalized if the fear is that raiders will dominate PvP due to better gear (in a resilience/expertise-free world). Then it is 100% down to skill and teamwork, and you could give all kinds of fluff rewards for your earned commendations/honor.

 

But I think the idea of a system in an MMO that's not gear-driven is just something that MMO developers simply can't comprehend.

[Chrisbox]

you just suck, stop the qq

[Killadrix]

But I think the idea of a system in an MMO that's not gear-driven is just something that MMO developers simply can't comprehend.

 

Or won't work.

[Scoobings]

So, just allow the PvPers to gain access to the top-tier Rakata gear via the PvP vendors that already exist without introducing an unneeded layer of segregation between PvP and PvE gear.

 

Top end PvP gear = Top end PvE gear. If the Raiders want to come play PvP, there's no fear because the PvPers have the SAME GEAR.

 

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? The best PvE gear is available from the vendors on the Fleet. The best PvP gear is available from the vendors on the fleet. PvP has this BS stat attached to make up for slightly lower end/primary stats. Easy fix, get rid of the BS stat and give the battlemaster equipment the same stats as rakata equipment, unless you're the maniac above who's ego is defined by his character's gear.

 

The reason it's such a difficult concept is because, as explained, damage would scale too high and fights would eventually dissapate to one or two moves.

 

Anyone who played vanilla WoW knows what I'm talking about. That's the whole reason the stat was born in the first place.

 

If you aren't going to take the time to do the research to figure out why a mechanic exists to begin with, then you lose your right to question it.

 

Not to mention the fact that PVErs get upset if you can gear for raids without doing PVE.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Scoobings

[Zombifikation]

I don't get why the stat is "bad" for the game?

 

Yes, people with the stat will dominate people without. However, we don't have some super competitive arena system in place that makes getting gear dificult. It's a grind. If you play, you will eventually get you gear with this stat on it. Yes, you will get stomped when you first start, but those players had to start without it as well.

 

As for PvE....who cares where the best gear comes from, if it's that big of a deal to you, you'll do what it takes to get the gear, be it pvp or pve.

[NessusFett]

Or won't work.

 

why would it not work to have equal stats (per class obviously) assigned to you automatically once you enter the pvp arena and then earn titles, gear, accommodations, and other stuff to show how bawse you are?

 

you could even make it tiered and have to earn your way up the rankings online to get into the upper leagues...

 

that way the hardcore could play against the hardcore and vice versa.

 

and we wouldn't be arguing about fairness of gear or anything.

[Killadrix]

why would it not work to have equal stats (per class obviously) assigned to you automatically once you enter the pvp arena and then earn titles, gear, accommodations, and other stuff to show how bawse you are?

 

you could even make it tiered and have to earn your way up the rankings online to get into the upper leagues...

 

that way the hardcore could play against the hardcore and vice versa.

 

and we wouldn't be arguing about fairness of gear or anything.

 

Well, for starters, it would be far less of a time sink.

 

Time sinks = longer subs.

 

Oh, I forgot that when making suggestions on these forums we need to completely forget that Bioware is running a business here.

[Perinn]

why would it not work to have equal stats (per class obviously) assigned to you automatically once you enter the pvp arena and then earn titles, gear, accommodations, and other stuff to show how bawse you are?

 

you could even make it tiered and have to earn your way up the rankings online to get into the upper leagues...

 

that way the hardcore could play against the hardcore and vice versa.

 

and we wouldn't be arguing about fairness of gear or anything.

 

Sounds like an FPS... or a fighting game... or a cookie cutter game that gives you no ability to deviate from the said cookie cutter build... it would be boring and repetitive.

[Treebyrn]

The reason it's such a difficult concept is because, as explained, damage would scale too high and fights would eventually dissapate to one or two moves.

 

Anyone who played vanilla WoW knows what I'm talking about. That's the whole reason the stat was born in the first place.

 

If you aren't going to take the time to do the research to figure out why a mechanic exists to begin with, then you lose your right to question it.

 

Not to mention the fact that PVErs get upset if you can gear for raids without doing PVE.

 

Yeah because fully geared AQ40 peeps were destroying people in BG's (note they were destroying people who were not decked out in top end raid gear). The absolute best pvp gear at the time was a good tier or two down from the top end raid gear and not very many people had that top end pvp gear so more people were at a bigger disadvantage.

 

Bliz then launches TBC and introduces resilience on pvp gear thus fixing (somewhat) people getting destroyed in pvp by raiders (for those that have the new pvp gear anyways). However by doing this they fixed one problem but introduced more problems. Now new players had to grind out two sets of gear if they wanted to raid and pvp and those who did not have the time or patience to grind out their pvp gear were still getting destroyed in BG's. All Bliz had to do was make Raid gear and pvp gear on par with each other and then code the skills so the do X% less damage to players.

 

Heck Swtor already has some skills coded this way... just look at some of the cc, it works on normal npc's but not players. All that needs to be done if people are worried about being insta gibbed in pvp due to gear scaling to high is for bioware to make the gear equal between pvp and pve and then code the skills so they do x% less damage to players.

 

What is sad is the same people who are here defending a pvp only stat (that lets face it really c**k blocks some people) will be on these same forums complaining because they now have 1 hour warzone queues or they are facing the same 2 or 3 teams every match. It still amazes me that people fail to realize that in order for pvp to succeed and be fun you need PLAYERS first and foremost. The more people the more Bioware invest into pvp and perhaps instead of 3 warzones and 1 dreadful pvp zone, we may end up with 10 warzones and several pvp zones with city sieges and space pvp with ships .

Edited January 14, 2012 by Treebyrn

[DarkKlown]

This makes no sense.. raiders get their gear from raiding (if all they want to do is raid), if they want to pvp as well then they are in the same boat as the rest of us. I am not sure how the pvp gear is for raiding but there is an outside chance that if raiders wanted to be top tier in both raiding and pvp then they will have to grind out 2 sets of gear.

 

I kind of agree with the OP, there is no need for a pvp only stat. They only thing that is needed is for top end pvp gear to = raid gear. The reason wow added resilience is because people decked out in top end raid gear were blowing people up in pvp, if wow had just made the top end pvp gear = top end raid gear then both side would have been happy (you get your gear your way and I will get mine my way ).

 

thats the perfect idea im my book both have even gear and can get it the way they like it. nobody is at a dissadvantage with no pvp stat if the gear is the same all it is then is skill. and if you dont have that then i dont know what to tell you. it would let you pvp and raid if you wanted without havint two sets of gear and nobody would be crying over being dominated by premades farming valor/tokens/gear or whatever they get there kicks out of. even field makes it funner and more engaging, if you accually had a chance to win wouldnt you try harder. everytime im in a warzone and the enemy just rolls us its like why am i here this is not fun. the expertise rating has to go.

[Obi-Rev]

I say get rid of the damn thing......example is remember how much fun PVP was during the thanksgiving beta...why because no one had +50skill gear and *** rolled you....it actually took skill and strat to kill other players.....now its **** me here comes purple light saber and theres 3 of us with brand new 50 gear...gg.

 

The ones here that try to say it should stay, are those that have no life and grinded to 50 and had the upper hand on everyone. Where this really starts to shine are on the server where Imp out number Rep or other way around....My server imps are 400% over the rep and pvp is full of battlemaster imps...the cycle of the good geared players get better gear starts.

 

I've watched some of the worst players pvp on my server and just because they have 1 healer who is also in champ/battlemaster they can wtfown 4-5 people at a time no problem. To go back to my original statement, that would not have been anywhere near possible in the early days of pvp...thus gear give you +50 skill.