The Expertise stat has to go...

[Steevog]

PVP is competitive, but that is a subjective word. You don't put a highschool team against a professional team and call that a competitive game. Why would an experienced and skilled pvper want to dominate alts and new players with the added advantage of having a big damage and mitigation advantage?

 

The problem created by rewarding time commited to pvp with gear that makes pvp easier is that you receive an advantage beyond the already growing advantage of skill and practice. Newer players and people making a new character have to que up for warzones and grind out currency so they can get their gear, and the result of this is getting completely destroyed by people that many of which would beat them in even gear, but now have an even further advantage by having better gear. In many cases the people with better gear may even not have as much of an aptitude for pvp so the person with lesser gear still loses even though they played their character more skillfully.

 

If we want to have a healthy growing pvp community we really need to make it as newbie friendly as possible. Not carebearing it down by simplifying abilities and strategy, but by using skill as the only advantage. Not seniority.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Steevog

[Poogination]

while youre at it BW, just remove PVP altogether

 

man all these crying kids rant about anything to get their way, and they usually get it, which is how games slowly become easier/lamer overtime

 

It seems like you can't grasp why expertise is ruining PvP.

 

Looks like another case of blind fanboyism to me.

[Voradoor]

First Paragraph -- This is only true if your reason for PvPing is to get geaerd. A lot of people attempt to PvP for PvP's sake. It is true that their may or may not be fully geared opponents, I will adjust my analogy to having a Random Boss Generator for that fresh PvEer to face that can range from a normal FP boss to a Hardmode Op boss.

 

If a player stops PvPing to PvE because the gear in PvP is equivalent to PvE gear, then I say "mission accomplished." If your only motive to PvP is to get gear so you can rolfstomp undergeared players, and not because you enjoy testing yourself against others, then I don't think a PvP system should cater to you if you are that fickle.

 

dude I honestly agree with you, which is why I play LoL heavly. but fact is no MMO will ever be what you ask, by its very nature mmo's are a gear game.

 

On topic.

"mission accomplished"? is the mission long que times? the fewer who que the longer ques are.

And regardless of pvp gear pvp will ALWAYS be about rolfstomping undergeared toons, if not via the PVP grind, then the PVE grind.

And yes unless you make a PVP stat people whom raid 40 hours a week will faceroll the pvp aswell, and no having both gears be the same wont work.

They wont always release a new raid and pvp gear at the same time, sorry its unrealistic.

simple fact is you bought a car and want a truck. its just not how MMOs have or ever will work.

[Llenyd]

Let me spell this out for you...

 

I am a PvPer. I have no interest in Raiding. I DON'T want a PvP stat, because A) it deters new players from trying/participating/functioning in PvP because the "more experience" players have a stat handicap, B) it lowers the skill cap in encounters, and C) is annoying as **** when you roll an alt.

 

I have no issue with PvP gear, but a PvP stat just breaks PvP for new players, not raiders. What should happen is this:

 

PvP Chest

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

 

PvE Chest

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

+50 PvE Expertise

 

Now you have a system where0

A) PvP Gear is just as good as the best Raid gear in PvP -- there is a diminished gear gap and skill can prevail.

 

B) A PvPer can use their PvP gear to raid, but at -10% efficiency compared to a similar tiered gear Raider.

 

Both of these promote participation in both forms of Endgame. And most importantly,

 

C) It makes PvP more accesible and fun to newer players, instead of a test of patience from being steamrolled by people solely because they have played longer, not better.

 

A & B are true. C is mostly false; it is true only for a top tier raider who decides to dabble in PvP.

 

The fresh 50 who is wearing

PvE Newb Chest

+60 Endurance

+60 Aim

+15 Crit

+5 Surge

+5 PvE Expertise

will still get destroyed by all the top tiered PvPers and raiders. There's still a gear gap for truly newer players.

 

If you want fresh 50s to be on equal footing then you really only have two options:

• Brackets based on gear - which will increase queue times
  
• Stats independent of gear in PvP - which removes replay incentive for a lot of players in a gear-centric game.
  

 

There really is no magic bullet. There will be problems no matter which way you go.

[solidsheep]

What athelete ever went straight from Little League straight to the Professional ones? It's like a little 8-year old going up against a six-foot-six genetic monstrosity in a game of tennis (I was the monstrosity). The poor guy was knocked flat on his back by the first serve.

 

That's my point why should you get anywhere if you haven't accomplished anything.

 

Crosby at 18 joined the nhl and at 19 was the captain of the Pittsburgh Penguins.

Tracy McGrady also joined the nba at 18.

 

You think all the young people that join pro team at a young age just go there because they cried and didnt work for it.

[QuickSaveTV]

I actually like this idea partially, as why would we create an artificial Expertise increase, when we should actually focus on the character's inherent primaries, such as Aim, Cunning, Willpower or Strength. Having universal expertise kind of ruins it for me, even though it comes as an additional stat.

 

I especially like the point about Surge, Accuracy Rating and other sub-stats. These things should form and help your style, not Expertise.

[Voradoor]

It seems like you can't grasp why expertise is ruining PvP.

 

Looks like another case of blind fanboyism to me.

 

you dont see how with out the stat the reason to grind pvp will go down, meaning que times go up.

and 2 months from now people will be ************ that PVE heros in end game gear rickroll fresh 50s.

MMOs have gear gaps, that is the nature of the beast.

I wonder how no one else sees this? before wow had a PVP stat people in BWL gear stomped a mud hole in anyone who didnt raid.

DAoC

UO

AoC

EvE

 

Every mmo since the dawn of time has been about whom has the most hours logged.

be it pvp items or raiding or time spent amassing crafting items.

[Belecfaron]

PVP is competitive, but that is a subjective word. You don't put a highschool team against a professional team and call the a competitive game. Why would an experienced and skilled pvper want to dominate alts and new players with the added advantage of having a big damage and mitigation advantage?

 

The problem created by rewarding time commited to pvp with gear that makes pvp easier is that you receive an advantage beyond the already growing advantage of skill and practice. Newer players and people making a new character have to que up for warzones and grind out currency so they can get their gear, and the result of this is getting completely destroyed by people that many of which would beat them in even gear, but now have an even further advantage by having better gear. In many cases the people with better gear may even not have as much as and aptitude for pvp so the person with lesser gear still loses even though they played their character more skillfully.

 

If we want to have a healthy growing pvp community we really need to make it as newbie friendly as possible. Not carebearing it down by simplifying abilities and strategy, but by using skill as the only advantage. Not seniority.

 

Quoted for Truth

 

We're going to be encountering people for whom this is their first MMO. Quite alot of the younger generation has a sense of entitlement abetted by the schools' increased "Everyone's a Winner Mentality". With these neophytes it would be wise to give them some form of training as opposed to dropping them into the jaws of us who have been playing PvP in MMO's for over a decade.

 

PvE hardly teaches movement and it certainly doesn't teach proper positioning. There ought to be either an exercise/training arena that could ease their passage from noobs to newbs and make them average PvP players. For example, is there anything readily available ingame to test the resolve bar on without Warzones? Hmm, only duels...

 

I think it is this dichotomy in experience, this Brave New World that newbs enter into that is creating most of the QQ in the forums.

[solidsheep]

PVP is competitive, but that is a subjective word. You don't put a highschool team against a professional team and call that a competitive game. Why would an experienced and skilled pvper want to dominate alts and new players with the added advantage of having a big damage and mitigation advantage?

 

The problem created by rewarding time commited to pvp with gear that makes pvp easier is that you receive an advantage beyond the already growing advantage of skill and practice. Newer players and people making a new character have to que up for warzones and grind out currency so they can get their gear, and the result of this is getting completely destroyed by people that many of which would beat them in even gear, but now have an even further advantage by having better gear. In many cases the people with better gear may even not have as much of an aptitude for pvp so the person with lesser gear still loses even though they played their character more skillfully.

 

If we want to have a healthy growing pvp community we really need to make it as newbie friendly as possible. Not carebearing it down by simplifying abilities and strategy, but by using skill as the only advantage. Not seniority.

 

I agree with you, but I always think of gear as payment for hard work.lets say we jump into another tier of pvp i think the old stuff should be easy for new players to get.

[TheRiddick]

Expertise is flawed in its inception, its great for those who have it, horrible as hell for those who don't. It hinders pvp progression in numbers because all you you "leet" people ground pound those new to pvp. I have full PvP gear and I too believe stats like expertise hinder the growth of pvp. Many people have said before, make gear equal for pvp and pve... I dont care if the higher pvp/pve gear has better stats... you had to work for them. that being said stats like expertise have NO purpose other than dividing the community and hindering growth. GET RID OF IT. Guildwars did it right, all armor values the same, makes competative pvp possible, everyone is equal, its about skill. Those who argue to keep expertise are those who are lacking in skill that NEED the advantage to be "competative". there i said it. there is no other reason to keep it.

[Kryptorchid]

dude I honestly agree with you, which is why I play LoL heavly. but fact is no MMO will ever be what you ask, by its very nature mmo's are a gear game.

 

On topic.

"mission accomplished"? is the mission long que times? the fewer who que the longer ques are.

And regardless of pvp gear pvp will ALWAYS be about rolfstomping undergeared toons, if not via the PVP grind, then the PVE grind.

And yes unless you make a PVP stat people whom raid 40 hours a week will faceroll the pvp aswell, and no having both gears be the same wont work.

They wont always release a new raid and pvp gear at the same time, sorry its unrealistic.

simple fact is you bought a car and want a truck. its just not how MMOs have or ever will work.

I am glad we agree, but you and I both know there is a different thrill that you get from MMO PvP compared to LoL, FPS's, chess, etc. I see a problem that is currently turning people off of PvP (it has in other games as well) and will in the future -- that's why I am so adament about this topic, because I know it can be better.

 

And again, not all MMOs are gear-centric games. In fact, the one that coined the term "MMORPG", Ultima Online, is one of the most gear independent MMOs ever, and it had really great PvP, even with its simplicity. So saying that blanket statement is false, but unfortunately describes all MMOs since 2002.

 

Then it comes down to this -- will more people queue for PvP because they get gear or will more people queue for PvP because it is a competitive and accessible? Without having any research, my gut tells me erring on the side of accessibility and fairness would draw AND retain more people. As you say, if gear is the ultimate reason for queuing for PvP, then people will drop out as soon as they are geared, which is why that shouldn't be the focus.

[Steevog]

You should have to work to be competitive in pvp. But the work should be playing on an even playing field against more experienced players. Not playing against more experienced players that also are allowed to use steroids and corked bats.

[Modecrypt]

I'm glad that I don't have to carebear my way to victory in PVP.

 

**** PVE raids.

[SWImara]

you dont see how with out the stat the reason to grind pvp will go down, meaning que times go up.

and 2 months from now people will be ************ that PVE heros in end game gear rickroll fresh 50s.

MMOs have gear gaps, that is the nature of the beast.

I wonder how no one else sees this? before wow had a PVP stat people in BWL gear stomped a mud hole in anyone who didnt raid.

DAoC

UO

AoC

EvE

I'm relatively sure plenty of people get it/agree with you, many of them in this thread. After dude made that fanboy comment I figured he had basically 0 valuable to say. If people are so concerned about expertise making the game inaccessible to others they'd be pushing for all 50s to have the same stats, which obviously they are not. The push to remove expertise is just about making it so PvE raiders can use their gear to faceroll people regardless of how much or little time/effort they've put into PvP.

[Morddun]

All of you whining about raid gear don't seem to get it that there is no reason raid gear has to be better. There is nothing from stoping them from making top tier PVP gear = top tier raid gear.

 

THere is no set in stone by the laws of nature that has to make raid gear better. That is a design choice just like any other bad choice.

[SWImara]

All of you whining about raid gear don't seem to get it that there is no reason raid gear has to be better. There is nothing from stoping them from making top tier PVP gear = top tier raid gear.

 

THere is no set in stone by the laws of nature that has to make raid gear better. That is a design choice just like any other bad choice.

As noted above this obviously has 0 to do with the oft "championed" causal gamer or fresh 50 etc etc. That guy doesn't have top tier raid gear. The argument here is over why people should or should not be able to use their top tier raid gear to come in and wtfpwn in PvP. They shouldn't. It took a long time for MMOs to come to the point that this isn't the case, moving back in the other direction isn't a good thing.

[solidsheep]

You should have to work to be competitive in pvp. But the work should be playing on an even playing field against more experienced players. Not playing against more experienced players that also are allowed to use steroids and corked bats.

 

I think people forget that you getting gear in a mmo kinda like working out in the gym and getting stronger.

 

Look at tennis last few years only 3 players have been winning tournaments. You don't see other player complaining that they should be with out shoes so they can have a chance at beating them.

 

Djokovic <3

[Morddun]

you dont see how with out the stat the reason to grind pvp will go down, meaning que times go up.

and 2 months from now people will be ************ that PVE heros in end game gear rickroll fresh 50s.

MMOs have gear gaps, that is the nature of the beast.

I wonder how no one else sees this? before wow had a PVP stat people in BWL gear stomped a mud hole in anyone who didnt raid.

DAoC

UO

AoC

EvE

 

Every mmo since the dawn of time has been about whom has the most hours logged.

be it pvp items or raiding or time spent amassing crafting items.

 

In DAOC there is no real raiding. If I have money in game i can just buy the best items in game that I want. THERE IS NO PVP STAT, any new tons I make have the best suits available before they even step foot in PVP.

[Morddun]

As noted above this obviously has 0 to do with the oft "championed" causal gamer or fresh 50 etc etc. That guy doesn't have top tier raid gear. The argument here is over why people should or should not be able to use their top tier raid gear to come in and wtfpwn in PvP. They shouldn't. It took a long time for MMOs to come to the point that this isn't the case, moving back in the other direction isn't a good thing.

 

If you think a PVE player in raid gear is going to come in and own in his raid gear against players in equal strength PVP gear that got that gear by actual PVP and practice in PVP then the PVPer must be terrible.

 

As for time invested it shouldn't mater if they put that time in PVP or PVE. Time invested is time invested. I my self would rather grind that time in PVP because thats what I like. If some one else wants to grind that time in PVE that their call. When they do show up in PVP I will be happy to hand them their arse.

[Voradoor]

I am glad we agree, but you and I both know there is a different thrill that you get from MMO PvP compared to LoL, FPS's, chess, etc. I see a problem that is currently turning people off of PvP (it has in other games as well) and will in the future -- that's why I am so adament about this topic, because I know it can be better.

 

And again, not all MMOs are gear-centric games. In fact, the one that coined the term "MMORPG", Ultima Online, is one of the most gear independent MMOs ever, and it had really great PvP, even with its simplicity. So saying that blanket statement is false, but unfortunately describes all MMOs since 2002.

 

Then it comes down to this -- will more people queue for PvP because they get gear or will more people queue for PvP because it is a competitive and accessible? Without having any research, my gut tells me erring on the side of accessibility and fairness would draw AND retain more people. As you say, if gear is the ultimate reason for queuing for PvP, then people will drop out as soon as they are geared, which is why that shouldn't be the focus.

 

I played UO, It was more time heavy then any game thus far. hince the widly used bots.

the point im making that your not seeing is gear is just A while other games use B

ALL mmos require you to trade time for A or B

No decent pvp guild in UO would take you if you didnt have maxed beast lore, mason or a crafting skill.

There is no way to make it so people dont run into gear curves, just cant be done.

there will always be freash 50s and people who acct share/play 80 hrs a week, they will be stronger then you for this reason.

unless gear guys away all together, then its "skill" based, just like ME2 or DA2 yep removing gears/choices that made things much more intresting. nope just more boring.

[Belecfaron]

PVP is competitive, but that is a subjective word. You don't put a highschool team against a professional team and call the a competitive game. Why would an experienced and skilled pvper want to dominate alts and new players with the added advantage of having a big damage and mitigation advantage?

 

The problem created by rewarding time commited to pvp with gear that makes pvp easier is that you receive an advantage beyond the already growing advantage of skill and practice. Newer players and people making a new character have to que up for warzones and grind out currency so they can get their gear, and the result of this is getting completely destroyed by people that many of which would beat them in even gear, but now have an even further advantage by having better gear. In many cases the people with better gear may even not have as much as and aptitude for pvp so the person with lesser gear still loses even though they played their character more skillfully.

 

If we want to have a healthy growing pvp community we really need to make it as newbie friendly as possible. Not carebearing it down by simplifying abilities and strategy, but by using skill as the only advantage. Not seniority.

 

Quoted for Truth

 

We're going to be encountering people for whom this is their first MMO. Quite alot of the younger generation has a sense of entitlement abetted by the schools' increased "Everyone's a Winner Mentality". With these neophytes it would be wise to give them some form of training as opposed to dropping them into the jaws of us who have been playing PvP in MMO's for over a decade.

 

PvE hardly teaches movement and it certainly doesn't teach proper positioning. There ought to be either an exercise/training arena that could ease their passage from noobs to newbs and make them average PvP players. For example, is there anything readily available ingame to test the resolve bar on without Warzones? Hmm, only duels...

 

I think it is this dichotomy in experience, this Brave New World that newbs enter into that is creating most of the QQ in the forums.

[Modecrypt]

All of you whining about raid gear don't seem to get it that there is no reason raid gear has to be better. There is nothing from stoping them from making top tier PVP gear = top tier raid gear.

 

THere is no set in stone by the laws of nature that has to make raid gear better. That is a design choice just like any other bad choice.

 

If they made raid gear and PVP gear equal then all of the carebears would be ************ because I killed 10,000 enemy players so I can compete in the top raid instances.

 

Likewise, a person who has slain thousands of scripted mobs with perfectly massaged ability rotations whilst wanking it to foot fetish videos shouldn't be able to have an advantage over a veteran PVP'r.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Modecrypt

[Fredcat]

This whole argument is pointless. ALL equipment based stat systems give veteran players advantages over new players. That's just the way it is. Whether the equipment is gotten through raiding, pvp, crafting, etc makes no difference. The players that have been there longer will have better equipment then a new player. I see nothing wrong with this, you should be rewarded for time spent. Maybe if things got really unbalanced they could have different brackets for vets or newbies or depending on gear rank.

 

Personally I would much rather get good gear through pvp then raiding (which I hate), or crafting/buying.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Fredcat

[SWImara]

If you think a PVE player in raid gear is going to come in and own in his raid gear against players in equal strength PVP gear that got that gear by actual PVP and practice in PVP then the PVPer must be terrible.

 

As for time invested it shouldn't mater if they put that time in PVP or PVE. Time invested is time invested. I my self would rather grind that time in PVP because thats what I like. If some one else wants to grind that time in PVE that their call. When they do show up in PVP I will be happy to hand them their arse.

O.o I thought my point was pretty clear, I was expressly pointing out that any nonsense people tried to peddle about this being equality is just manipulation. A fresh 50 getting rolled by a Raider is just as bad as a fresh 50 getting rolled by a PvPer, so if we go with your plan the only people who benefit at all are raiders. Frankly this is one part of the game they don't need to be catered to in. I don't expect to have maxxed expertise gear for quite a while, I am utterly comfortable getting pwnt by people who have earned their PvP gear in that time. I am not ok with also being at the back of the bus compared to raiders.

 

Regarding your second point, were the latter the case Valor levels shouldn't exist in this game. The two tracks are clearly recognized both as legit game styles offering different rewards and different challenges.

 

To be clear I'm all for actual equality, getting rid of all stats modifying people's ability in PvP etc, however we both know that is not going to happen. I am not however all for a PvE raider being able to bring his raid stuff to PvP and being as good (at least on paper) as someone who put in their time PVPing.

[Modecrypt]

If you think a PVE player in raid gear is going to come in and own in his raid gear against players in equal strength PVP gear that got that gear by actual PVP and practice in PVP then the PVPer must be terrible.

 

A raid player shouldn't have any gear advantage of any type against a person who's PVP'd to 50 and past. Zero, none, zip. It isn't a matter of them being able to win or not, their gear shouldn't hold a candle to gear gained through PVP.