The Expertise stat has to go...

[Armethious]

Expertise is a crutch that only bad players need. Any skilled PVPer does not need it.

 

Anyone who argues against it and says that they need a "reward" for PVPing just don't understand what it means to be truly competative.

 

You objection makes no sense. No one is saying a player NEEDS expertise in order to PvP. What we are saying is the GEAR needs expertise in order to give it a separate and distinct gear progression than PvE based gear. If you want a PvP environment where gear is only cosmetic, then you are playing the wrong game. Since there IS gear progression in PvP, expertise is therefor necessary to distinguish it from PvE gear.

 

As I just stated above, there is only a small subset of players that are truly content to PvP with no substantive reward whatsoever. A large portion of players will not PvP without some type of reward.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Armethious

[BDutch]

There is only a subset of players that will continue to PvP if there is not some sort of tangible reward that goes beyond aesthetics. If you want a rich, vibrant PvP scene with a myriad of people involved, you have to include the PvE players who will only PvP casually or as a secondary focus to their PvE endeavours. That type of player will only do so en mass if there is some sort of tangible reward like gear upgrades.

 

If you want a small tight knit group where you only go against the same people over and over again, then sure, drop the expertise stat and allow no meaningful upgrades or gear progression from PvP.

 

If there were no real upgrades from PvP, no gear progression, I would never PvP. I enjoy improving my character with better stats, not just some flavorful title I can tack onto my name. Bioware has already established that gear progression will be part of their PvP model. You just need to accept that. Now, if there is going to be gear progression, it HAS to be separate from raid progression. They are two distinct play styles and have different needs. They should NOT result in the exact same gear.

 

Now, all that said, people complaining about expertise as it is currently implemented are complaining about nothing. As it stands right now PvE gear is BETTER then PvP gear of comparable levels for most slots in most circumstances for PvP. Losing the endurance and your primary stat is just not worth the small boost you get from expertise.

 

We have no idea how many people would PvP if there were not rewards for it, despite your personal preference. I saw tons of open world PvP including city raids in vanilla WoW before they had any sort of reward system. This was not a small niche of players, this was just what happened on active PvP servers.

 

Now if you want to talk about "small tight knit group"s of people that just face eachother over and over, look at what happened to Rift. Their PvP reward system drove off all the new blood, which is why they have a new patch on their PTS designed to "see gear playing a smaller role in your success (and others) on the battlefield."

[Armethious]

Having an exclusive pvp stat that gives such a large reward is much of the problem we are having with pvp now.

 

Expertise is not necessary. It creates so many problems right now. Things would be so much better with no expertise at all.

 

If that was the case, then those players who are doing hard mode operations would have the best gear for PvP without ever stepping into a warzone. Is that what you want?

[Paganini]

how about no

[Chesterinex]

I've thought about this for a while now and have tried to formulate a solution. Currently since 1.1, the expertise gap once you hit 50 still exists. Not only that, but the gap between level 50 vendor pve gear, or 40 pvp gear, and even the centurion gear is quite large. This causes new 50s to be discouraged from pvping as it is perceived that the gear gap is too large.

 

My proposed solution:

Add craftable gear to the crafting professions that are:

1) on par with the token bought base pve 50 gear (eg the Corellia/taris/Hoth type gear)

2) have a maximum additive expertise on these equate to a sum of 5% expertise, adjusting certain pve stats to pvp similar to current pvp gear

 

Eg: an Artifice can make color crystals of 3 levels, say something like 25/10 exp/end at base level.

Or an Armorme h making a chest piece with a base of 25 expertise, REing to create slightly better stats. The trick here is to make it affordable, and to be on par with starter 50 pve gear.

 

What this does:

Reduces the painful transition from 49-50 in pvp

Makes other crafting skills (other than biochem) useful at 50

Creates an economy

[Dogfatherxx]

You objection makes no sense. No one is saying a player NEEDS expertise in order to PvP. What we are saying is the GEAR needs expertise in order to give it a separate and distinct gear progression than PvE based gear. If you want a PvP environment where gear is only cosmetic, then you are playing the wrong game. Since there IS gear progression in PvP, expertise is therefor necessary to distinguish it from PvE gear.

 

As I just stated above, there is only a small subset of players that are truly content to PvP with no substantive reward whatsoever. A large portion of players will not PvP without some type of reward.

 

My objection makes perfect sense. If you fashion yourself as "skilled" at anything, you do not need a reward to keep doing it.

 

Do you think that anyone who has played competitive sports in their life did so because they got a new uniform at the end of a game that let them hit the ball harder. No, they did it so that they became better players with the ultimate goal of eventually competing at a higher level. That, or they just liked the game.

 

Rather than a standard "give them more gear" approach, BW has the chance to actually do something different in their MMO. Give competitive players brackets so that they can play equally skilled players. Don't give them a new gun or lightsaber so they can pwn people thats only fault is that they haven't played as much as them. I think that is a much better way of rewarding PVP. Just thinking about a time-based "rewards" system just makes the PVP in this game seem silly.

[Armethious]

We have no idea how many people would PvP if there were not rewards for it, despite your personal preference. I saw tons of open world PvP including city raids in vanilla WoW before they had any sort of reward system. This was not a small niche of players, this was just what happened on active PvP servers.

 

Ok, so there was some PvP initiative on "Active PvP" servers, well what about non active PvP servers? What about PvE servers? Why should someone be forced to role on a PvP server if they want any kind of PvP at all? There have always been more PvE servers than PvP, in fact nearly TWICE as many PvE servers than PvP. PvP servers are not for me, when I am working on a mission, I do not want to be on the lookout for other players. Some people prefer that, I don't. I do enjoy structured PvP where I can decide when and how long I want to participate.

 

Now if you want to talk about "small tight knit group"s of people that just face eachother over and over, look at what happened to Rift. Their PvP reward system drove off all the new blood, which is why they have a new patch on their PTS designed to "see gear playing a smaller role in your success (and others) on the battlefield."

 

I can not speak to rift as I have never played it. I do not know how they implemented their reward system. It took YEARS for WoW to get it right, I would imagine every MMO has to work it out on its own. Furthermore, your own quote said "smaller role", it does not say no role.

 

In WoW there is basically three tiers of PvP gear. The bottom tier is always crafted, and the best gear requires you to take part in rated arenas or WZs. Every time they introduce new gear, previous top tier gear now becomes available one step down and they improve the crafted gear. So, no matter when you get involved in PvP, you are never more then 2 steps away from the best gear out there. Personally I think that is the best gear progression system I have seen so far.

[Armethious]

My objection makes perfect sense. If you fashion yourself as "skilled" at anything, you do not need a reward to keep doing it.

 

Do you think that anyone who has played competitive sports in their life did so because they got a new uniform at the end of a game that let them hit the ball harder. No, they did it so that they became better players with the ultimate goal of eventually competing at a higher level. That, or they just liked the game.

 

So the rumors of professional athletes making bank is all a rumor. They don't really live in those multi million dollar homes, nor drive exotic sports cars. Wow, where do you live? The number of players involved in competitive sports who are there for the rewards (i.e money, fame, influence) far exceeds those who are there to JUST play the game.

 

Rather than a standard "give them more gear" approach, BW has the chance to actually do something different in their MMO. Give competitive players brackets so that they can play equally skilled players. Don't give them a new gun or lightsaber so they can pwn people thats only fault is that they haven't played as much as them. I think that is a much better way of rewarding PVP. Just thinking about a time-based "rewards" system just makes the PVP in this game seem silly.

 

Sorry, the horse is already out of the barn on that one. There is a gear progression system for PvP, the only question is how to best implement it.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Armethious

[Dogfatherxx]

So the rumors of professional athletes making bank is all a rumor. They don't really live in those multi million dollar homes, nor drive exotic sports cars. Wow, where do you live? The number of players involved in competitive sports who are there for the rewards (i.e money, fame, influence) far exceeds those who are there to JUST play the game.

 

You just don't get it. None of those rewards are ones that give them an advantage playing against others. Do you think that the Patriots or Giants have players asking for helmets that will let them hit harder? Does the idea not just seem silly?

 

I am fine with cosmetic awards, but real competitors don't need a crutch. Just sayin'

[Macabrae]

My objection makes perfect sense. If you fashion yourself as "skilled" at anything, you do not need a reward to keep doing it.

 

Do you think that anyone who has played competitive sports in their life did so because they got a new uniform at the end of a game that let them hit the ball harder. No, they did it so that they became better players with the ultimate goal of eventually competing at a higher level. That, or they just liked the game.

 

 

I am not sure what "bizzarro" world you are living in but please come back to reality.Professional players play their sport to make millions of dollars and if that isn't a "reward" I am not sure what is. Trust me they don't do it because they just "Love" the game. Everyone needs a reward system whether it's in a game, professional or personal in their life.

 

Also, as an avid pvper the expertise stat is very necessary. it separates me from the pve people. If you want pvp gear then you should have to pvp for it, plain and simple. Perhaps I should get top notch pve gear from pvping as well then? Would that be a fair trade?

[Crawelc]

Totally agree we should be able to do nightmare modes in crafted gear and there is no possible reason that putting in 10 hours a day in wzs should give you any advantage at all.

Hate how sarcasm doesnt come across in text.

[BDutch]

Ok, so there was some PvP initiative on "Active PvP" servers, well what about non active PvP servers? What about PvE servers? Why should someone be forced to role on a PvP server if they want any kind of PvP at all? There have always been more PvE servers than PvP, in fact nearly TWICE as many PvE servers than PvP. PvP servers are not for me, when I am working on a mission, I do not want to be on the lookout for other players. Some people prefer that, I don't. I do enjoy structured PvP where I can decide when and how long I want to participate.

 

My point was that there are people out there who PvP for no reward other than the PvP itself. If you don't even want to play on a PvP server then who are you to say it's merely a "small subset" of players?

 

I can not speak to rift as I have never played it. I do not know how they implemented their reward system. It took YEARS for WoW to get it right, I would imagine every MMO has to work it out on its own. Furthermore, your own quote said "smaller role", it does not say no role.

 

It's not like we're starting over from scratch with no influence on each new MMO. Rift is a WoW clone. SWTOR is a wow clone. Unfortunately, we're getting copy/pasted design issues along with the proven successful stuff. SWTOR will have to do triage for gear inflation, just like Rift and WoW.

 

Unfortunately, while WoW has retained a somewhat healthy PvP environment, Rift has not. Even though they are so similar in many ways, Rift has to do something to come back from the dead in PvP. I'd hate to see SWTOR going that same route, but I see a similar lack of regard for gear's affects on PvP at release.

[Armethious]

You just don't get it. None of those rewards are ones that give them an advantage playing against others. Do you think that the Patriots or Giants have players asking for helmets that will let them hit harder? Does the idea not just seem silly?

 

I am fine with cosmetic awards, but real competitors don't need a crutch. Just sayin'

 

So you are saying the Giants and the Patriots pay the exact same to their players as every other team? Of course not. Are you saying the players do not spend money on trainers, equipment, etc? Of course not. In the real world it is not as obvious as someone who puts on a helmet of +2 to receiving, but they DO spend money on things that IMPROVE their game that without said money they would not have been able to do. Not to mention when the team as a whole wins, the franchise makes more money, that allows them to bring on better players that allow them to win more. I am still boggled that you brought up competitive sports as a symbol of parity free from the disparities of the have and have nots.

 

Again, if you want a gear neutral PvP system, then this game is not for you.

[Dogfatherxx]

Everyone needs a reward system whether it's in a game, professional or personal in their life.

 

Also, as an avid pvper the expertise stat is very necessary. it separates me from the pve people. If you want pvp gear then you should have to pvp for it, plain and simple. Perhaps I should get top notch pve gear from pvping as well then? Would that be a fair trade?

 

Face it, you are just trying to justify your needing a crutch. With 570 expertise myself who runs in a premade of like-geared players on a PVP server, I am not afraid to admit that it creates too much of an imbalance in the matches. It's never of question if we are going to win, but just how fast it will be.

 

I'm done arguing with you as you clearly view your expertise gear as an integral part of your self identity. Thus, it's pointless debating you. Good luck in your future pwning endevors.

[Dogfatherxx]

So you are saying the Giants and the Patriots pay the exact same to their players as every other team? Of course not. Are you saying the players do not spend money on trainers, equipment, etc? Of course not. In the real world it is not as obvious as someone who puts on a helmet of +2 to receiving, but they DO spend money on things that IMPROVE their game that without said money they would not have been able to do. Not to mention when the team as a whole wins, the franchise makes more money, that allows them to bring on better players that allow them to win more. I am still boggled that you brought up competitive sports as a symbol of parity free from the disparities of the have and have nots.

 

Again, if you want a gear neutral PvP system, then this game is not for you.

 

Yeah, I saw Moneyball too. There is a little bit more too it than that, but I applaude your efforts. And for the record, I brought up competative sports in general, not professional. Someone else took it in that direction.

[Okamakiri]

Perhaps I should get top notch pve gear from pvping as well then? Would that be a fair trade?

 

That's exactly what your gear should be. PVP and PVE gear should be equal (set bonuses could still favor the type of gameplay they originate from). Same goal, two path to reaching it. It's the dev's job to make sure the paths are equally difficult and time consuming.

[LanceUpercutt]

wait for rated warzones

[Macabrae]

Face it, you are just trying to justify your needing a crutch. With 570 expertise myself who runs in a premade of like-geared players on a PVP server, I am not afraid to admit that it creates too much of an imbalance in the matches. It's never of question if we are going to win, but just how fast it will be.

 

I'm done arguing with you as you clearly view your expertise gear as an integral part of your self identity. Thus, it's pointless debating you. Good luck in your future pwning endevors.

 

 

LMAO Love people like you. I "Need" a crutch? Last time I checked if I had 10% expertise and so did you that is a wash. I get no advantages over you and you get none over me. I guess where I am failing to see where I am the one needing the "Crutch".

 

In Fact, if anything people like you are the ones asking for the crutch. People like you want to be able to raid get the best gear and go kill people who cant raid or don't want to raid.

 

Is it an "Integral part of a pvpers self identity" as you put it? Absolutely. It is the way it is supposed to be as well. Just like getting top pve gear is for the pve people. There is no harm in that and is supposed to be that way. Pvp gear go to people who pvp (What a concept I know) and Pve gear goes to people who pve. Just as it should be.

[Armethious]

Unfortunately, while WoW has retained a somewhat healthy PvP environment, Rift has not. Even though they are so similar in many ways, Rift has to do something to come back from the dead in PvP. I'd hate to see SWTOR going that same route, but I see a similar lack of regard for gear's affects on PvP at release.

 

I am in no way saying the current implementation is perfect and should not be changed, all I am saying is expertise must be part of it. I would be all for a crafted PvP base set, (which has been suggested multiple times) that is on par with current craftable PVE gear/mods.

 

I am all for parity in the progression path of gear between PvE and PvP. Unfortunately at this time we do not have that. PvE looks like this

 

Crafted

Tionees/Energized

Columi

Rakata

 

In PvP it looks like this

 

Level 40 Vendor (Ewww)

Centurion

Champion

Battlemaster

 

Currently PvP has a much steeper curve for the quality of gear which IS a problem. Of course my biggest problem with expertise is that it does not actually make PvP gear better at PvP than level equivalent PvE gear.

[Dogfatherxx]

LMAO Love people like you. I "Need" a crutch? Last time I checked if I had 10% expertise and so did you that is a wash. I get no advantages over you and you get none over me. I guess where I am failing to see where I am the one needing the "Crutch".

 

In Fact, if anything people like you are the ones asking for the crutch. People like you want to be able to raid get the best gear and go kill people who cant raid or don't want to raid.

 

Is it an "Integral part of a pvpers self identity" as you put it? Absolutely. It is the way it is supposed to be as well. Just like getting top pve gear is for the pve people. There is no harm in that and is supposed to be that way. Pvp gear go to people who pvp (What a concept I know) and Pve gear goes to people who pve. Just as it should be.

 

You win as I have no further argument. I'm just gonna agree to disagree.

[Armethious]

That's exactly what your gear should be. PVP and PVE gear should be equal (set bonuses could still favor the type of gameplay they originate from). Same goal, two path to reaching it. It's the dev's job to make sure the paths are equally difficult and time consuming.

 

Having two paths to the exact same gear IS the problem. Why should a hardcore raider who has never stepped into a warzone have the best PvP gear? That will make the elite gear club even MORE exclusive.

[BDutch]

I think one of the problems here is there are more than just 2 sides to this.

 

We have people who:

1) don't want PvE gear to be better than PvP gear in PvP

2) don't want PvP gear to be better than PvE gear in PvE

3) want PvE gear to be equal to PvP gear in PvP

4) want PvP gear to be equal to PvE gear in PvE

5) don't want gear to matter in PvP at all

6) want PvP to be all about gear

 

You could say you like/dislike the expertise system and still fall under multiple categories. The topic ends up being too broad, and even less productive than the average forum thread, IMO.

[OatsRawr]

you raid, you get a reward (better gear for raiding)

 

you pvp, you get a reward (better gear for pvp)

 

I don't see what so hard to comprehend about this. Why would you want to PvP if you werent rewarded for doing so. If you take away expertise, PvP is going to be stupid because 50's wont have any reason for it. 3-5k credits? gear that isnt optimal for pve? I'm sure some people like to play hutt ball 5billion times just for the hell of it, but I like being rewarded. You also feel much more accomplished when you do get your gear, because it was hard to do so. You also learn how to be a better player because you aren't "the muscle" and therefore have to learn to help your team in other ways.

[Clege]

I am not sure what "bizzarro" world you are living in but please come back to reality.Professional players play their sport to make millions of dollars and if that isn't a "reward" I am not sure what is. Trust me they don't do it because they just "Love" the game. Everyone needs a reward system whether it's in a game, professional or personal in their life.

 

Also, as an avid pvper the expertise stat is very necessary. it separates me from the pve people. If you want pvp gear then you should have to pvp for it, plain and simple. Perhaps I should get top notch pve gear from pvping as well then? Would that be a fair trade?

 

The player you quoted in your ogional post makes sense, even if you remove the professional athlete from the example. There are dozens of softball leagues comprised of people who play the game for fun. As the person you quoted said, they do not get a new uniform at the end of every game.

 

As for your statement that expertice is a needed stat because "it seperates the pve players from me." Expertice is a crutch for the weak. If you need it to be able to beat PvE players in PvP, then either you lack the skill many people are refering to that expertice removes, or you do not wish to have a competative fight -- you would rather overpower and dominate lesser-geared players because of game mechaincs and not superior tactics and stragety.

 

Do not fool yourself. Expertice is suppose to exists to increase the time players need to farm gear. However, in BioWare's short-sightedness, they made expertice the most heavily weighted stat in the game. What was suppose to be a time sink has now become a game-breaking stat that allows the "haves" to dominate the "have nots."

 

And I say this being a player that dominates in level 50 PvP, without a fullset of PvP gear.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Clege

[Junebugs]

Yeah i want expertise gone so that raiders can come into PvP and wreck my face over and over then start farming us at spawn