Terrorshard Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Let me spell this out for you... I am a PvPer. I have no interest in Raiding. I DON'T want a PvP stat, because A) it deters new players from trying/participating/functioning in PvP because the "more experience" players have a stat handicap, B) it lowers the skill cap in encounters, and C) is annoying as **** when you roll an alt. I have no issue with PvP gear, but a PvP stat just breaks PvP for new players, not raiders. What should happen is this: PvP Chest +100 Endurance +100 Aim +75 Crit +25 Surge PvE Chest +100 Endurance +100 Aim +75 Crit +25 Surge +50 PvE Expertise Now you have a system where0 A) PvP Gear is just as good as the best Raid gear in PvP -- there is a diminished gear gap and skill can prevail. B) A PvPer can use their PvP gear to raid, but at -10% efficiency compared to a similar tiered gear Raider. Both of these promote participation in both forms of Endgame. And most importantly, C) It makes PvP more accesible and fun to newer players, instead of a test of patience from being steamrolled by people solely because they have played longer, not better. This time 1000. What is wrong with this kind of system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetflair Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I remember when I played WoW how some twinks farmed some place few thousand times to get one single item on that bracket. So I'd argue that if are really committed to PVP there is no contradiction raiding gear being same or superior to PVP gear. If you are really committed to PVP and want to win, you go where it needs to get the gear for it and do what it requires. Players will whine about need to grind, but they still grind battlegrounds/warzones for months if needed and with same effort they could aswell raid. The only relevant question is that is the pvp worth the trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armethious Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 This time 1000. What is wrong with this kind of system? Mainly because PvP gear takes time and effort to put together PvP gear and someone who has 7 friends run them through an operation or two could have better gear in one evening that someone who spent weeks winning matches to get his gear. Does not seem fair to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seventh Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Mainly because PvP gear takes time and effort to put together PvP gear and someone who has 7 friends run them through an operation or two could have better gear in one evening that someone who spent weeks winning matches to get his gear. Does not seem fair to me. But you can argue the same if a PVP person has no friends try to complete their PVP dailies and win 0 games a week due to the disparity of the PVP gear difference at level 50. The time to grind it out at level 50 is tough because the people who hit 50 first gets the major advantage especially when the 50s were in the brackets with the 10s+. Gear you can buy at the AH can come closer to the PVE raid gear with augement slots etc... nothing you can buy in the AH can come near PVP expertise gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Pve wannabes Need to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delillo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I am skeptical that there were a good number of PvP'ers to leave by that point. Actually that change made me stay for a few more months since it meant skill became a larger factor in PvP. Gear was still huge. The WoW/Rift/SWTOR model is about grinding. Its just a question of degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islossk Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 my issue is that expertise increases damage delt, healing done, and damage reduction, causes a fresh 50 to basically get 1-2 shoted by someone in battlemaster gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leemajors Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Honestly, I think the easiest compromise is to introduce in some craftable PvP gear on par with Centurion gear if you have the patience to proc it. Just don't allow for a full set to be craftable to keep the grindy aspect to it. It only takes about 100-150 expertise before you start feeling like you are actually useful to the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anethia Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Why don't you all just stop talking about the crap I don't even care to read and work your butt off like the rest of the battlemasters to get gear. Frankly, I don't want to raid to get pvp gear and I don't want to be hit for like 10k by some stupid sorc that is running around in all pve gear who pvps once in a blue moon. YOU don't like the way pvp is done? Don't do it then. Was I an undergeared new mmo player at one point..yea but you need to put effort in to recieve rewards. And if your a casual player don't ruin it for everyone else I'd almost rather a "Casual Queue" button for pvp so you all stop qqing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malice_Nihilim Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Raid gear vs people who do not want to raid WoW calls it Resilience Rift calls it Valor TOR calls it Expertise And all of it is dumb. If you want a 'special stat' or stats to make PvP and PvE different, then give the different stat to PvE...No boss mob to date has rage quit and un-sub'd over getting blown up by over geared PvEers. Tossing it into PvP makes balancing PvP all that much more difficult, where balance actually matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delillo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Mainly because PvP gear takes time and effort to put together PvP gear and someone who has 7 friends run them through an operation or two could have better gear in one evening that someone who spent weeks winning matches to get his gear. Does not seem fair to me. As someone who plays the game in order to PvP, I could care less if PvE players can run dungeons to get the same gear as me. As long as it isn't actually better, I don't care. I'm fine with everyone having the same gear as me. I want a game based on skill not grind. Skill is not more time invested - in any aspect of the game, PvE or PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawelc Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I just dont understand people complaining that if they dont start pvp till lvl 50 they get facerolled by people in pvp gear. You have to put in the grind, just like with pve gear and running HMs. Im sorry but I really do want to have something to show for the time i put in to doing warzones and knocking the snot of the undergeared is the only thing we have viscerally to show it. I still get rolled by people in battlemaster and im almost full champ. I dont think you should get to do nightmare operations as a fresh 50 just because you are skilled at your class, neither should you be able to beat a battlemaster geared person just because you are skilled at your class. Put in the time get beat down just like everyone else and gear up. PVP is team based so the argument that you wont get any wins just starting out to complete the dailys is totally flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I dont think you should get to do nightmare operations as a fresh 50 just because you are skilled at your class, neither should you be able to beat a battlemaster geared person just because you are skilled at your class. People wouldn't want to be forced into nightmare operations if they didn't have the gear to do them. It would be an exercise in frustration to fail your way through welfare rewards until you had enough gear to beat them. Good example, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorshard Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 People wouldn't want to be forced into nightmare operations if they didn't have the gear to do them. It would be an exercise in frustration to fail your way through welfare rewards until you had enough gear to beat them. Good example, thanks. Then what is the normal version of pvp? It seems you have to afk/get facerolled for X amount of time until you are able to actually play. It is like a fresh 50 being thrown into nightmare not having any other choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Then what is the normal version of pvp? It seems you have to afk/get facerolled for X amount of time until you are able to actually play. It is like a fresh 50 being thrown into nightmare not having any other choice. I think you might be agreeing with me, but I can't tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selestian Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Raid gear vs people who do not want to raid WoW calls it Resilience Rift calls it Valor TOR calls it Expertise You could still get gear from whatever means (pvp/pve) you want just drop expertise from them all. There is no need to delineate between raid or pvp gear if the quality is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorshard Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm on the fence, I'll probably have more of an opinion once I am finally 50 and see how bad the 50 bracket really is. Might come down to luck of he bags how bad the situation ends up being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selestian Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I dislike the expertise stat personally. There is no reason to have it regardless if you're pvp or pver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawelc Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 No thank you for making my point better than I did, Just being good at your class at end game means jack, yes it helps but untill you gear up you will be behind the people who are geared. People dont qq about not being able to run nightmares as fresh 50's but somehow think that in pvp the only thing that should matter is skill. I was just trying to say that without knowing there is better gear in your future that will give you an advantage there is no reason to grind anything out. If you think lvl 50 pvp ques are long now try taking the reason to grind away and you will have no one queing at all. I dont run 15-20 wzs a day because i want to do nothing but pvp, I do it so I can faceroll someone just starting out as a 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawelc Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So what all you guys are saying is regardless of wether you pvp or pve at end game you should be able to take pvp gear into nightmare modes without a problem and vice versa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shabob Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 It's as simple as this... It's a TIME SINK! They want you to have to spend time to get TWO sets of gear. That is the only explanation anyone needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawelc Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I am starting to love this idea. I will make my own post on the ops forums complaining that I want end game PVE items to come from my pvp bags. After all its not fair that they only have to run an ops once a week to get gear and i have to do warzones all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avindra Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) A level 50 PvP bracket simply will not save the PvP in this game. There is no logical explanation for having a PvP stat in this MMO game, or in fact any MMO game. I'm not even mad. Everquest 2 has toughness (PVP stat) Rift has valor (PVP stat) Age of Conan has invulnerability (PVP stat) WoW has resilience (PVP stat) Not sure what mmo doesnt have a PVP only stat. People like something to work towards just like the PVE people do with raiding otherwise you would get carebares farming PVE gear and using it in PVP to have an advantage instead of earning it by killing players. Edited January 23, 2012 by Avindra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okamakiri Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I am starting to love this idea. I will make my own post on the ops forums complaining that I want end game PVE items to come from my pvp bags. After all its not fair that they only have to run an ops once a week to get gear and i have to do warzones all day. Don't be dense. If expertise stat didn't exist, your gear would be equivalent to raid gear. And then everyone could progress their gear by playing whatever aspect of the game they enjoy most (pvp, flashpoints, raiding, questing, etc.), and could at any point choose to take part in any other part of the game without penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattlePickle Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I dont run 15-20 wzs a day because i want to do nothing but pvp, I do it so I can faceroll someone just starting out as a 50. So put another way... you really want it to not be PvP and more like PvP/E... In other words, you want your gear to mean the difference between you winning a fight or losing. That is the exact opposite of what PVP is about. Keyword being "player" vs "player". If teams win or lose in sports, it's because they were the better team or more skilled... not because their car had twice the horsepower... or because they had 13 men on the field to your 11. Expertise as a concept is fine... reward someone for time spent... but it should never become 'the reason' someone wins. Currently, the advantage vs a low expertise player is too much for any amount of skill to overcome. Cap it at 2% and you might say 'skill' defines the majority of your victories, and edges out vs an equally skilled player who hasn't put in the same amount of time as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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