The Expertise stat has to go...

[Antiks]

No it doesn't. If it does PvE players will have the upperhand vs. people who PvP most of their time. That is stupid.

[Rackiera]

Expertise gives about a 10-12% difference at most.

 

Has anyone actually taken full set of PVE Tier 1 gear and listed the stats and then a full set of PVP Tier 1 and listed the stats.

 

Try it you will notice something..

[Astarica]

Expertise gives about a 10-12% difference at most.

 

Has anyone actually taken full set of PVE Tier 1 gear and listed the stats and then a full set of PVP Tier 1 and listed the stats.

 

Try it you will notice something..

 

I compared Rakata and Battlemaster (top PvE versus top PvP0, and the difference seems to be +10 endurance +20 primary stats -50 Expertise on each piece. Rakata and BM have identical armor/weapon rating and secondary stats. I assume the other comparable sete follow the same pattern. To put things in perspective, most BM DPS will have about 16-17K HP. 50 Expertise is basically 1% modifier. So 1% damage taken is roughly like 160-170 HP compared to 10 endurance = 100 HP. I have no idea how to estimate 20 primary stats, but it's worth about 0.15% crit before considering the damage/heal it adds to. Of course 1% PvP bonus > 20 primary stats, but again it's not that much more.

 

This means if there is no Expertise, people would be complaining about the guys in full Rakata rolling them instead.

[DuriZap]

I compared Rakata and Battlemaster (top PvE versus top PvP0, and the difference seems to be +10 endurance +20 primary stats -50 Expertise on each piece. Rakata and BM have identical armor/weapon rating and secondary stats. I assume the other comparable sete follow the same pattern. To put things in perspective, most BM DPS will have about 16-17K HP. 50 Expertise is basically 1% modifier. So 1% damage taken is roughly like 160-170 HP compared to 10 endurance = 100 HP. I have no idea how to estimate 20 primary stats, but it's worth about 0.15% crit before considering the damage/heal it adds to. Of course 1% PvP bonus > 20 primary stats, but again it's not that much more.

 

This means if there is no Expertise, people would be complaining about the guys in full Rakata rolling them instead.

 

Replace the stat with a normal stat. Simple solution instead of this silly comparisson, with a just as silly conclussion.

Edited January 23, 2012 by DuriZap

[Aritok]

Even though i agree that it sucks as a fresh level 50 getting ganked up by all full PVP geared player, the Expertise has to be as it is.

 

You have to seperate PVP and PVE in this way, or you get a mess.

 

If you make PVP and PVE gear equal, there would be no reason for raiding anymore at all. Killing one whole part of the game. End result = bad.

If PVE gear is better than PVP gear, these who PVE will dominate over PVPers. Bad as well.

 

There has to be a stat that seperates PVE and PVP from each other.

 

 

But i do agree that there has to be something done about these Valor 1 Level 50 playing aganst Valor 60 Level 50.

Not only is it really frustrating to lose all the time to catch up the gear, but it also ruin the game for 7 other in your team, that you dammed to lose with you.

 

Player of equal Valor should be paired. But this will currently not work, especially not on the newer Servers. There are just not enough player around for it.

It only works via cross server queue.

 

After this, the only player, who have a problem, are these who level from 1-50 only with PVP. They will have a high Valor when reaching Level 50, but missing the PVP gear for it. For these there should be Expertise added to the level 40 gear. Or adding a crafable Mod for PVP with Expertise on it.

[Astarica]

Replace the stat with a normal stat. Simple solution instead of this silly comparisson, with a just as silly conclussion.

 

BM gear is itemized the same level as Rakata, so if Expertise didn't exist they'd be exactly the same as Rakata. You'd still be getting rolled by someone wearing Rakata gear as a fresh level 50.

[Kemorand]

Expertise gives about a 10-12% difference at most.

 

Has anyone actually taken full set of PVE Tier 1 gear and listed the stats and then a full set of PVP Tier 1 and listed the stats.

 

Try it you will notice something..

 

Thing is, you don't need to do anything but have the time for it to get PvP gear, just show up in WZ, lose or win couple hundred times and whatnot. No matter what, you WILL end up with that neat purple stuff (well, unless you're REALLY unlucky on bags and stuff, but same goes on for loot tables). Queue up, rack in, queue up, rack in. There is no downside: you got the time, they got your loot, guaranteed.

 

PvE gear however, you need to organize people, get them to an operation or run flashpoints, actually put effort into running these and hope you can do it (you don't get ANYTHING if you lose, unlike PvP), then you're locked out so you have to wait a day or a week, then do that AGAIN, for a long, long time. I mean, that can take months even if you succeed all the time.

 

So, apart from the pure PvE "challenge" of it, or someone playing couple hours a week and just running ops, PvP is the way to go to gear up, even if you lose all the time since you still get something, all the time and it's repeatable ad vitam.

 

Why do you think nearly every single 50 out there is in PvP gear? Heck, on my server, there's barely anyone doing HMs, nobody ever going into operations. They just semi-afk on the fleet or on Ilum near boxes, pop into WZ, do whatever, rack in, and repeat. For the very few doing HMs, they are already in nearly full purple PvP gear so go and explain them what's the point

 

 

 

 

As for the expertise stats...it's just like all stats and gear. The more you have, the more potential you have. That's part of the RPG systems kinda. If it's not expertise, it's gonna be more crit, or HP, or power, or whatever. Doesn't mean it's a 100% auto win. It's just a helper.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kemorand

[Airoper]

you should be rewarded for time invested not what area it was invested in gear should be cross compatible if your earned the gear i say you should beable to use it in what ever toy like not forced to split the community for the sake of making people farm 2 lots of gear!

[teyngodown]

Expertise gives about a 10-12% difference at most.

 

Has anyone actually taken full set of PVE Tier 1 gear and listed the stats and then a full set of PVP Tier 1 and listed the stats.

 

Try it you will notice something..

 

just did this on Torhead and here's the stats

 

Total stats for Battlemaster Eliminator set

 

Aim: 858

Endurance: 910

Crit: 206

Accuracy: 306

Power: 187

Surge: 102

Expertise: 602

 

 

Total stats for Rakata Eliminator set

 

Aim: 1059 19% higher than BM

Endurance: 1157 22% higher than BM

Crit: 206

Accuracy: 306

Power: 187

Surge: 102

 

these sets are with 2x relics 2x implants and earpiece from respected sets. I picked the +77 endurance rakata relics instead of the endurance/power ones simply to keep secondary stats identical.

Edited January 23, 2012 by teyngodown

[sauna]

It's honestly unimaginable to even begin to hope to understand what anyone was thinking when they thought putting Expertise into the game would be a good idea.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. It isn't needed and it does nothing to actually improve ANY MMO-game.

 

Looking at WoW when you create a pvp-system is really like looking at a LeCar when you're trying to build a Ferrarri.

Instead, hire people that actually know something about having a successful PvP-system. Early DAoC, UO, Darkfall-devs for example.

 

BW: We know you don't actually care about the PvP. If you did you would have put some work into it instead of these half-assed and derelict shortcuts. I'm of course talking about the tears-in-your-eyes piece of crap World PvP and instanced yay-I'm-grinding-like-a-korean Warzones.

Get someone with vision and creativity.

 

Why did people play year in and year out of only PvP'ing in DAoC, e.g.? It was fun as hell, competitive, rewarding no matter if you played premade groups or just zerged keeps and it had MEANING!

 

/sighs

[Madwooki]

Expertise is like resillience. Was not needed then and isnt needed now.

Why is it that the 1st 2 weeks most peeps loved this games pvp ,even with the lag and bugs, then a month later not so much?

answer:expertise

[Mcfondles]

In WoW it is not hard to farm a full set of the latest season PVP gear, you dont even have to be that good. Just team up with someone in arena for 2 vs 2 for the points, arena queues are pretty quick so you can farm a set in a couple of days. It puts your team against others with around the same rank.

 

Besides the fact that there is a weekly cap of 1350 conquest points in WoW.. and most set pieces cost 2200 conquest points.. No you cannot "farm a set in a couple of days." Would take you two weeks to get your first piece.

[Infighter]

Besides the fact that there is a weekly cap of 1350 conquest points in WoW.. and most set pieces cost 2200 conquest points.. No you cannot "farm a set in a couple of days." Would take you two weeks to get your first piece.

 

You forget that you can get a set of the previous season easily by grinding honor. The disadvantages aren't so extreme if you're trying to fight someone with a superior set.

 

Anyway, I believe the best way to fix this need of expertise is simply by making expertise come by easier. I'm not saying this because I want gear handled to me or blablabla, but because having even a "weaker set" against people with a "stronger" one is still better than fighting in pve gear.

 

Currently in the game, if you are not lucky, to get gear you have to grind your *** off. And the worst part is that you're grinding for gear that is worse than the one you get by being lucky. This is just not right.

[zYNNN]

Expertise is like resillience. Was not needed then and isnt needed now.

Why is it that the 1st 2 weeks most peeps loved this games pvp ,even with the lag and bugs, then a month later not so much?

answer:expertise

 

I'll use WoW as an example,

 

Without Resi - I could go an 2 shot a mage with back to back SS's, with full Naxx gear.

 

Another example -

 

Imagine the PvE DPS in PvP, getting 40k crits, on people with 150k health.

 

There would be no way for healers to keep up with the incoming damage, Arena matches would last no longer than a minute or so.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygW66j5TUcU

 

PvP players should not be forced to PvE, to compete at higher lvls, same as PvP players doing the same amount of DPS as PvE players but in PvP gear.

 

This game is still new so you may see people raiding in Champ PvP gear, but as more content gets added, and more people will start to get more gear, the gap between PvP and PvE will get bigger,

[VeetorDaal]

HEY PVE PLAYERS! STOP ACTING LIKE EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU! Expertise stays or the PvP community leaves and that would hurt the game in the long run, PVE CONTENT INCLUDED!

[Rackiera]

@ Teyng, thanks for the info below ;

 

Total stats for Battlemaster Eliminator set

 

Aim: 858

Endurance: 910

Crit: 206

Accuracy: 306

Power: 187

Surge: 102

Expertise: 602

 

 

Total stats for Rakata Eliminator set

 

Aim: 1059 19% higher than BM

Endurance: 1157 22% higher than BM

Crit: 206

Accuracy: 306

Power: 187

Surge: 102

 

 

 

So without expertise people in PVE gear would have a 19% higher main stat and more end, thats why expertise is in, without it PVE gear would dominate WZ. Its your choice what to wear, I see people in PVE gear and PVP gear to get a mix of both options.

 

They seem to get best overall results as well.

 

Everyone can choose what they wear, what they do, so if u want to PVE your gear is fine as it is, if you want to PVP its fine as it is ...

 

Why should I have to do PVE to be competitive in PVP ? , without expertise I have no choice unless all sets are exactly the same.

 

This should close this issue once and for all, PVE & PVP Gear can both do fine , I have not seen any rational argument that could disagree with the above, so whats the problem ?

Edited January 23, 2012 by Rackiera

[Gwal]

HEY PVE PLAYERS! STOP ACTING LIKE EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU! Expertise stays or the PvP community leaves and that would hurt the game in the long run, PVE CONTENT INCLUDED!

 

You guys are going to leave for the next game that promises full loot and a gazillion teirs of PvP gear anyway.

[Saben-]

What do Wow and Rift have in common seeing as some one else mentioned the names.... They both have extremely low new PvP player uptake. Getting people to enter PvP in those games and stick with it long enough to be on par gear wise (Or close enough to be competitive) simply doesn't happen, at a rate that replaces outgoing players.

 

Both of those games have PvP communities that loose members faster then they replace them with new Ex PvE Playing converts. The PvP stats make it VERY VERY hard to introduce new players to the fantastic world of PvP that we all get. I think most of us will grind on alts when we have too ect... because we are already hooked. There was a time when every one of us was not a PVP player... admit it none of us came to PvP first.

 

The bracketing that PvP stats creates drives away growth. It will become a problem for TOR in the future as well.

 

QFT!

 

/10char

[RayneDancer]

Going to agree with the OP on this one.

 

Just to point out, WoW is getting rid of their resilience stat for a reason. In their next expansion, all players have the same amount of "Resilience" based on what level they are. All max levels have even "Resilience", in that regard. Players then focus on whatever aspect of the game they enjoy more to gear up for certain stats or appearances.

 

Toss the Expertise stat quickly, BW, and replace it with stats that makes sense for each piece of gear.

[Gwal]

The OP is correct, and I pointed out a solution in this thread below.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=209799

 

How do I rate this thread?

[kauntzero]

I think getting rid of expertise is not necessary. But there should be some starting PVP gear available for valor, with less stats but with expertise.

 

Currently the difference from a full Champion geared character to a character even with 3-4 pieces of Champion gear is too big (even more to new 50s without any gear, if he did not level up by pvping and getting some bags right away). It is at a point where you do not need to fight at all, because no matter what, the character with full Champion gear will win. And it is absolutly not fun farming that gear if you feel helpless and hardly can do anything to support your team. Having some expertise on the starting gear should level that out.

 

Acutally for me it feels even more imbalanced than fighting in low tier a character that is 20 levels above me (thanks to stat adjustments) and has a lot more different abilities at his disposal. so despite having a lvl 50 char with now 4 champion and 1 centurion part, I do prefer to pvp with a low level char, just because it is more fun.

[zachvalentine]

TLDR

 

but let me get this straight. it's not fair for new pvpers to go up against expertise stacked people, but it would be fair for them to go up against people that have been hardcore raiding for months and have a ridiculous amount more primary/secondary stats?

 

if people want to pve they arent forced to pvp to get gear. and if people want to pvp they shouldnt be forced to pve to get gear - and it simply wouldnt make sense to get the same gear from doing both.

 

@people talking about resil in wow, you can get a full pvp honor set that is very competive in a weeks worth of semi-casual play. and in swtor so far? i've gotten 400+ expertise (acceptable amount by most standards) in less than a weeks worth of semi-casual play. suck it up for a little and quit the ************ - the gear comes easily.

[Gwal]

TLDR

 

but let me get this straight. it's not fair for new pvpers to go up against expertise stacked people, but it would be fair for them to go up against people that have been hardcore raiding for months and have a ridiculous amount more primary/secondary stats?

 

if people want to pve they arent forced to pvp to get gear. and if people want to pvp they shouldnt be forced to pve to get gear - and it simply wouldnt make sense to get the same gear from doing both.

 

@people talking about resil in wow, you can get a full pvp honor set that is very competive in a weeks worth of semi-casual play. and in swtor so far? i've gotten 400+ expertise (acceptable amount by most standards) in less than a weeks worth of semi-casual play. suck it up for a little and quit the ************ - the gear comes easily.

 

No you got it wrong.

 

It's not fair for new PvP'ers to go up against expertise stacked guys. And it is not fair for PvE'ers to be roflstomping PvP'ers either. Read my thread in the above post for a system that would have worked. (A PvE only bonus on raid gear, that only makes them better in PvE but means they can play PvP)

[Thrones]

TLDR

 

but let me get this straight. it's not fair for new pvpers to go up against expertise stacked people, but it would be fair for them to go up against people that have been hardcore raiding for months and have a ridiculous amount more primary/secondary stats?

 

if people want to pve they arent forced to pvp to get gear. and if people want to pvp they shouldnt be forced to pve to get gear - and it simply wouldnt make sense to get the same gear from doing both.

 

@people talking about resil in wow, you can get a full pvp honor set that is very competive in a weeks worth of semi-casual play. and in swtor so far? i've gotten 400+ expertise (acceptable amount by most standards) in less than a weeks worth of semi-casual play. suck it up for a little and quit the ************ - the gear comes easily.

 

 

Thank you. I see no problem with pvp stat geared people. They worked hard for it just as hard as i worked for my raid gear.

 

Is it fair for me to 1-2 shot ppl pvping with my pve gear? Guess we need to remove pve gear aswell.

[MightyHalo]

PVE'ers who don't want to put in the time for PVP come up with these threads in every game like this.