Scondrels & Operatives remind me of Rangers in DAoC

[Mailek]

OPs/Scoundrels are a little overpowered, but I find my main problems with them stem from warzones and 50s who are most likely specced out in PvP gear so they can just tear through their targets.

 

The cooldown on our CC break ability needs to be reduced to 1 min since CCs are plentiful in this game. You can beat them if you are prepared and smart, but they definitely still have a slight OP advantage.

 

It doesn't help that many folks have no idea how to use resolve properly either.

[Masahiko]

Back in the day I was a ranger in Hibernia and. For those that don't know, Rangers were Hibernia's bow user and as with all bow users in that game at that time were grossly over-powered. The reason we were OP was because we could kill any enemy player quite a few levels above us from stealth and "if" by some fluke we didn't, we could "jet away" with a skill I don't recall the name of and just restealth.

 

The class needed to be nerfed. At the time I suggested simply disabling the "speed away" after combat and similar ideas that would still keep the Ranger viable but not as silly as it was. Unfortunately, Mythic went too far as is usual but that's another story.

 

You operatives and scoundrels are so over powered it's sad. For PvE players; who cares? But for PvP players, it's a major issue. And by the way, please don't even talk to me about warzones. Your classes are issues there but that's not the main problem. It is in open world pvp where you can simply pick off targets all day long with no chance of losing and the victim dying before he/she can even get off the floor.

 

Scoundrels and Operatives need to be fixed.

 

Unfortunately, due to what I've seen so far; the lack of BW feedback and such, and being told this was made very clear to BW during closed beta and still nothing changed, I'll have to roll one and kill cause as much misery as possible until more of the players either complain or quit. It shouldn't require this for change, and shocked BW doesn't have a PvP team of Devs who either "care" or "know" what they are doing.

 

-Gratus

 

Rangers? Really thats what you went with?

 

Of all the classes you compare the op to a ranger in daoc?

 

Rangers arent even in my top ten OP classes from that game.

 

As a throw back to pvp from daoc i will say this: Pvp happened.

[Gabil]

Loved DAoC...That is all.

[BobaFurz]

Operative relies too much on the opener IMO...out of stealth most run to restealth.

[Dirtydurst]

It's really a simple fix guys:

 

Damage needs to be toned down on shoot first. Problem solved.

[Sevvy]

So they wait 15 seconds to kill you or open on you anytime in the next 2 minutes to kill you. Stop being a little troll and enjoy your Operative/Scoundrel being OP while you can.

 

ZOMG I'm a Mage and I get killed by Rogues! Welcome to MMOs, kid.

[grizzul]

one question: with all the vanish and stuff discussion - im confused.

Why would a scoundrel even need that after opening? cant they do damage after opening?

 

Scoundrel/Operative opening with stun, pos. styles and dots - the opponents HP bar will likely be somewhere below 60% im guessing if cc break is not up. And even if it is up you might end up like that if you dont have your ccs up right away.

So a) Try to get out of range and heal up. But while you heal/get range the operative/scoundrel can still do damage, right? Its not like after opening they dont do anything for the next 15 sec. Even if your stun is up, you have 8 sec to get some range, do damage or heal up.. then you get hit again. Im not sure what the damage output is from the scoundrel/operative opener. But I hardly believe that you can compensate heal that within 8 sec if the target is a healing class.

b)Or you manage to use ccs and kill the scoundrel/operative with a HP bar at 60% and his at 100%?!

This means tho, that you would have to output as much damage after your stun is over as you just got hit with - or as a healer, heal equal amounts within those 8 sec stun.

 

isnt both of it very unlikely with such a huge disadvantage at the start?

 

And regarding resolve bar: Unless your resolve bar is white (instead of grey) you can still be cct even if the grey bar is filled up completely - imho

[Fergor]

Operative relies too much on the opener IMO...out of stealth most run to restealth.

 

Pretty much this. The spec is basically all about the alpha strike. It's the least mobile AC with the least utility. All it has is damage out of stealth. Once your out of stealth you're garbage.

 

I'm all for nerfing it to make it more like shadow/assassins. Fantastic stealth classes that have stealth but don't need it and have oodles of utility. And they actually out damage scrappers/ops over a longer fight .

 

The only reason I stuck with my scoundrel is I really enjoy the story. I may try healing but ultimately knowing every class has fun utility like knockbacks, pulls, force run, etc and I have zero utility takes a lot of fun out of the class.

[Bullsith]

Out of all the things that may get nerfed when they decide to take a look at PVP (and hopefuly get rid of the Mythic team) this one is gonna get nerfed for sure. So don't worry just take it and hope the said nerf comes sooner than later.

[Kaizergi]

Rogues need to be nerfed..hard

with decent gear and buffs we can DESTROY any target in 5-7 seconds

and if we can't(outnumbered)..we can just restealth and run

with our cc and damage theres nothing one can do to survive

some rogues on our server easly solo kill 2-3 lower level enemies at once

 

me and my op(erative)friend ..we just terrorized some warzones completly annihilating enemies without giving them a chance

we could open up on 3-4 enemies and kill at least 2 before they knew what's going on..and then finish others

 

all whine and rage in chat was fun..for a while

we thought we are just THAT GOOD

until i rolled other character, and got completely destroyed by lower level rogue for several times..

[BobaFurz]

Then they need to fix range damage aswell and defence of other classes.....range damage is crazy and defence aswell inclusive healer, you need 2 ppl to kill one often. And I cant kill a healer with same lvl (sorcerer/sage) bymyself as a lvl 42 operative...impossible, with interrupt and stun. This is overpwered aswell. The only classes i kill very fast are those with probably green gear, there are players under lvl 20 which are harder to kill than some lvl 40+ donno why but I saw that.

 

All tank player are very hard, healers is for me a no go and well I go for the squishy ones...shadows none tank and sorcerer non heal especially, these are dead meat in seconds for the other classes you have to work.

 

Dont know how is that at lvl 50 but at lvl 42 you dont just faceroll, there are certain squishy builds which get facerolled....but those are often high damage dealer aswell and do the same to you.

 

 

I may try healing but ultimately knowing every class has fun utility like knockbacks, pulls, force run, etc and I have zero utility takes a lot of fun out of the class.

 

Try to use the opener when someone is waiting to cross the fire...once it did kick a player into the flames ...but its more difficult than knockbacks and so on..

Edited January 3, 2012 by BobaFurz

[CurbEnthusiasm]

Pretty much this. The spec is basically all about the alpha strike. It's the least mobile AC with the least utility. All it has is damage out of stealth. Once your out of stealth you're garbage.

 

I'm all for nerfing it to make it more like shadow/assassins. Fantastic stealth classes that have stealth but don't need it and have oodles of utility. And they actually out damage scrappers/ops over a longer fight .

 

The only reason I stuck with my scoundrel is I really enjoy the story. I may try healing but ultimately knowing every class has fun utility like knockbacks, pulls, force run, etc and I have zero utility takes a lot of fun out of the class.

 

I love the Scoundrel play-style. I'm completely fine with no knock-back or charge. Just don't take my shotty

[Rezoh]

Scrapper 50 here

 

1- I've never ever seen a 5,2k Crit on Shoot First. Screenshot or it didnt happen. If you dont know it you can see the biggest shot youve done after a WZ. Mine is something beetween 3,2k-3,8k

 

2- If youre level 20 and Im 50 I ll two shot you. It doesnt matter if I play Shadow, Sentinel or Scoundrel. Youre dead, period.

 

3- I've NEVER killed a level 50 with Shoot first + Back Blast + Blaster Whip + 2x Sucker Punch

 

4- If we are out of stealth we are dead (no escape mechanics except 2min cooldown on vanish). Out of stealth we are very soft and unlikely to win a match 1 vs 1 if we got jumped.

 

5- Never go alone in a WZ. 1 vs 1 youre dead 1 vs 2 scoundel is easy to deal with.

 

6- If youre full Scrapper your healing sucks and its not worth casting any heal, even in combat

 

7- 300k damage and 100k heal in one WZ from a Scoundrel? Screenshot or it didnt happen.

 

8- Stuns you say? Have you ever played against a Sage/Sorcerer? Thats a perma stun combo, not ours.

 

This forum is full of cryers and liars.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Rezoh

[Ebiso]

this is how it usually goes for me:

 

He opens > I trinket

Blind him > he trinkets

Stun him for 4 sec

I knockback + dot + root

he vanishes

I run around till dot ticks

I Knockback + root

Kill him

 

If he saves break free for my stun I get a dot up anyway so he's screwed.

 

If I have no break free he wins, If I have I win 50/50.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Ebiso

[Sabbathius]

6- If youre full Scrapper your healing sucks and its not worth casting any heal, even in combat

 

Not entirely true. As Concealment spec, Revitalizers talent restores 2% HP every 3 seconds while Stim Boost is running. And in combat, Stim Boost is always running. That's pretty beastly healing. At level 30 on my Operative, Revitalizers healing = 2x Kolto Probe healing. That's right, 250 a tick in both cases.

 

So, healing sucks if not healing spec? Not exactly. Not saying it's OP, but it's not exactly weak either considering it is virtually passive.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Sabbathius

[Sabbathius]

this is how it usually goes for me:

 

He opens > I trinket

Blind him > he trinkets

Stun him for 4 sec

I knockback + dot + root

he vanishes

I run around till dot ticks

 

What's topping him from popping Evasion before he vanishes? With Avoidance Training, Evasion removes all DoTs. He can then re-open from stealth, only this time your trinket is down, and his 4 sec stun is still up. Hidden Strike 3 sec stun, Defibrillate 4 sec stun. Think you can live through that?

[BDutch]

this is how it usually goes for me:

 

He opens > I trinket

Blind him > he trinkets

Stun him for 4 sec

I knockback + dot + root

he vanishes

I run around till dot ticks

I Knockback + root

Kill him

 

If he saves break free for my stun I get a dot up anyway so he's screwed.

 

If I have no break free he wins, If I have I win 50/50.

 

Here is my purely anecdotal version of this recount

 

He opens > I trinket

Blind him > he waits until I break it

Stun him > he trinkets

I knockback + dot + root

He cleanses

He vanishes

I run around until he opens again

I die

[LeonKeyh]

First, the damage quoted by these people is just wrong. Unless you're sub 50, fighting people that are in full PvP gear, Shoot First/Hidden Strike is going to do 3k-3.5k crit, around 2-2.5k normal hit. If you lower it any significant amount, the attack will be completely worthless because it requires stealth.

 

Now, as stated before, the 4 second stun from it fills your resolve bar completely.

 

If you take away the knockback portion of the attack (which people have suggested), instead of getting a 4 second knock back with full resolve I will hit you with Hidden Strike/Shoot First, and then my normal 4 second stun which won't completely fill your resolve bar. Unless you can respond within 1 second to someone coming out of stealth behind you, they'll get the same amount of stun time, without the detriment of a full resolve bar.

 

The best way to nerf it would be to LOWER (not remove) the knockback time on Hidden Strike/Shoot First. However, I don't think that it's has necessary as people are claiming.

[Rodskii]

As a level 50 scrapper in about 3/4 of my champion gear, I can say that yes we have great burst. But that's it. There is no survivability outside of stealth. Once our combo is over, if we don't have a pocket healer or a tank guarding us then we are paper thin.

 

I think these ridiculous burst claims have a bit of validity to them but I am here to say they are not coming from the Scrapper class specifically.

 

Let me explain. I also have level 400 Biochem. If you want burst then this is the profession for you due to a few items. 2 specifically.

 

Exotech Skill Stim

 

Rakata Attack Adrenal

 

Now combine that on activate(which does not share a cool down) with

 

Relic of Boundless Ages

 

And yes you will get some nice numbers. For 20 seconds. This is the problem. People only see that one crazy attack combo and scream OP. Yet it is extremely situational. Have I destroyed people with this combo? absolutely. Am I near the top of my damage meters/kill meters? Sure, but not always. And before I had this combo, usually not. Seeing as a scrapper spends most of his time selectively choosing targets, positioning himself for combat, and once engaged, trying to maximize damage while minimizing the intake.

 

We have 2 stuns. 45 seconds CD on Dirty Kick that can be talent spec'd to 30 seconds and flash grenade that is on a 1 min cool down. We have a dodge shield and a defense screen both on long duration CD's. We have vanish on a 3 min CD which is 80% of the time completely ineffective in a group battle considering the large amount of AOE damage to pull us out of stealth. We need our burst because without that, we are useless. We have no other utility to offer a group. We can't shield other players(SI/Cons) or guard them(Shadow/Assassin/Knight), we have no group/single target knock back(Every single class but us), we have no sprint(Jedi classes), we have no jump to quickly change levels in huttball(Knight), our heals in FULL DPS spec are utterly useless(no pushback reduction/a single 3 second heal). We just don't have the utility that benefits a team, besides stealth and SINGLE TARGET burst. You take our burst away and our class would be completely pointless compared to any class, specifically a team oriented versatile stealther like the Shadow/Assassin. They have stealth with a bunch of utility. We just get the bad wrap seeing as we get noticed when you get face rolled in a single combo because you are forced to watch it. I don't see anyone complaining about the sniper that get back to back 4k crits or the BH spamming tracer missiles. The reason is, you are too tunnel visioned to noticed what just happened so you shrug it off, where as when you are laying flat on your face while I do my thing, you have no choice but to watch. Do I love getting that initial burst off? Absolutely, till I just realized I blew everything I had.

[Toggy]

I think someone else said it best...

 

The only people who think Operatives are not over-powered are either lying or lying.

 

I have played nearly 200 matches at 50. And I always see these guys topping the board in both damage and healing at the same time. They do more DPS all while out healing most any other DPS class's DPS.

[Dairinis]

I don't want scoundrels/operatives to be nerfed, they need to be redesigned. I played one till 20 and they are utterly boring imo. They have barely any utility in a game that is all about it. They have stealth and thats it.

 

BUT that doesn't mean they should be obliterating everything and everyone when coming out of stealth and be totally crap when not being able to attack from stealth anymore, that's very very bad design. It needs to be tweaked badly.

 

They are also the only class I have seen getting 5k damage in a single hit medal so far. I'm sure that was probably with the damage boost buff and with stims/buffs, but still, that's insane.

[Rezoh]

I think someone else said it best...

 

 

 

I have played nearly 200 matches at 50. And I always see these guys topping the board in both damage and healing at the same time. They do more DPS all while out healing most any other DPS class's DPS.

 

You're playing a different game than me then. Topping the board as damage and healing? Screenshot please?

 

We do premade groups in our guild and Gunslingers/Shadows/Sentinels are usually top damage. My numbers are sually 180-280k damage and 15k-20k healing. Gunslingers and Sentinels in our guild are often above 300k damage.

 

Perhaps Im just a very bad player and in your server all the scoundrels are PRO players.

 

BTW Screenshot or you're lying

[DarkeGBF]

Scrappers are pretty strong, but I'm not sure they need nerfed just yet. Edited January 3, 2012 by DarkeGBF

[Digital-]

I have played nearly 200 matches at 50. And I always see these guys topping the board in both damage and healing at the same time. They do more DPS all while out healing most any other DPS class's DPS.

Screenshots, videos, some kind of proof or you're just another lying whiner who got owned one time and now you're here to cry about it. Shouldn't be that hard if you "always" see it.

[Balmuck]

Is this good enough for you? Bunch of baddies who think their class isn't as good cuz they suck.

 

If all of you played as good as this guy, this whole *********** game would blow up.

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, look at what Reeno says about killing 50s...

 

Edit:

 

The crazy thing is he only has like 3 pieces of Champ gear.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Balmuck