Noth
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Posts posted by Noth
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I can't think of any situation that I would NEED a pull... sure I could pull someone into fire in huttball. But Im happy pushing them off ledges, charging to them or interceding to my team mates. Pulling wouldn't really make AE threat any easier, which is our main complaint.
Sure you could run in and pull a range to another range instead of run in push them together than charge... but thats what that saving us? Like 3 seconds. The former looks way cooler anyway.
Or instead of having to intercede to a player to grab the mob pounding on them, and thus moving the entire mob pack, you could just pull them. 3 seconds adds up fast when it comes to clearing trash.
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Don't Vanguards and Powertechs get a AoE push also?
No they do not.
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Why pull when you can stunchoke and push..... really, what more do you want?
Pull wont save you when you need to get away from a gank
Pull wont help you up cliffs, across gaps, and over chasms
You cant pull someone to their death, but you most hilariously can with push
And how much nerd rage do think force choking, then backhanding, then force pushing, then charging (w/ stun) must generate in the poor sap who tries to PVP against you?
You keep your lasso, wonder woman - real men charge into battle.
You can pull people to their death. Powertechs get a pull and a charge so they have no problem traversing gaps and cliffs. Powertechs get a ranged stun.
The issue you say is solved by having push and pull share a cooldown.
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This is how it works to build that level of damage with Smash.
Vengeance tree 30% extra damage to smash at all times.
Rage tree specced where you can stack 25% damage 4 times (shockwave), IE 100%.
Now you have 230% damage to unleash.
So if you specced that a force charge automatically grant 100% chance for critical hit for smash.
Do you start to see the picture?
So not only do you hit with 230% damage it is an AUTOMATICAL critical hit if you force charge to the target as well.
What you have to do to build that is force choke/crush someone for 4 ticks.
Might not be easy to get all of this at all times, but it's right there in the rage spec + the lowest tier 3 point 30% smash ability.
I know how it works. Tio get the 6k hits you have to have basically every damage buff on you going (stims, pickups, relics and pretty much anything else). Without those you'll usually see 3-4k crits only.
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Endure Pain leaves you at 1 hp when it wears off and you lost most health than you have actually (if that makes sense).
The mob you're fighting probably doesn't care so he'll easily kill you regardless. But technically EP doesn't kill you.
That is essentially killing you unless your healer can instantly get a heal off that heals for more than the next hit delivers.
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stop there, juggs are the toughest to kill out of all of the tanks in game. yes aoe threat is not as good as the others but thats what makes the class unique and challenging. i love tanking with my jugg because every pull im always thinking of how to overcome my disadvantages; and constantly learning the capabilities of my class/role. if you think like that, you'll see how bad***** juggs are at tanking. Stay optimistic! Jugg for life
Actually it's hat very thing that proves how juggs are weaker than the other tanks. Juggs only are tougher when they get their 3rd cooldown and even then one of our cooldowns can actually kill us if it wears off at the wrong time.
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HOWEVER, I do agree that I was fairly shocked at how quickly my BH merc could take out mobs of enemies... even with a healer spec. It's a joke how many AoE damage skills they have. But still, no matter how easy mode they felt, they still felt limited. I'm pretty convinced that although they have great skills and do massive damage, Heat still makes them fair. If they don't kill you after the first wave or two of blown skills, a juggernaut will beat a BH (and i'm sure the same would go with the other classes). I mean come on, why are you guys whining when you have a disrupt EVERY 8 SECONDS. Doesn't that kind of counter LOTS of things? on top of your choke/slap/push you know the deal.
And due to this heat restriction, I also feel that it limits the skill gap between BH. While these range DPS are sitting back waiting for CDs, warrior classes are constantly stringing together moves, timing disrupts, taking damage, staying alive, etc.....
You do know that those tank classes have tons of ways to regain resources/shed heat right? Further they have rotations where they have to use basic attacks just like us. the big difference is that they can start building aggro must faster due to actually having resources at the start.
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My impale crits for about 3,2k and then leaves a dot, my vicious throw always crits for 3,5k (about 95% crit chance with talent). So I'd say I do 3-4k hits on a regular basis too. Shatter is just a dot, but it already crits with 2k and then the ticks do their work. Mind that I am in no way stacking surge, being only at about 75% bonus crit damage while having 28% crit chance and about 1300 strength + 250 power. These are numbers I see popping up in PvP and PvE likewise, ofc they most likely get lower if the enemy player is stacking expertise or has a lot of damage reduction / armor
They do get lower, they start dropping off fast. I'm at about 8% expertise and never see hits that high unless the person has no expertise. So in effect while we scale well with gear, so do otehr classes and in effect we drop of back to level sub what other classes end up doing.
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I agree lol. If we had force pull then escaping us would be pretty hard without your team helping alot.
Read powertechs... does no one realize how asinine it is for BH be able to completely lockdown someone and basically be unkitable yet it is not ok for a SW to be that way? You put teh pull in teh tanking tree and then you don't have to worry about dps getting it and completely locking someone down.
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Not surre if the people QQing are bad or lazy. So let me help you...
Cast Enrage
Run in to the main body of mobs cast smash.
Force Charge ranged mob
Run around it make it turn it's back to the other mobs
FORCE PUSH it into other mobs
Run into group aoe taunt then smash or saber swipe.
This isn't hard, also our mitigation destroys BHs so stop saying BHs can do everything we can Nightmare modes Juggs are preferred main tanks for a reason.
Actually BH has better raw mitigation.
Also in your scenario the Bh charges to the main body and pulls ranged mob. No need for everything else you mention. Faster, more efficient, quicker mobs kills and thus less overall healing needed. while you just blew a minute cooldown, a 45 second cooldown, pulled mobs away from possible AoE, blew another 45 second cooldown.
Mind citing source for juggs being preferred in nightmare because everywhere I look Juggs have been stated to be meh in nightmare.
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Well thats nice that they can get aggro at range better than a Jugg but how does that impact the question at hand? I thought the issue was Juggs needed to be able to coral ranged better for AoE'ing down. BH can only move 1 ranged where they want it to be, the rest of the ranged mobs targeting them will stand wherever they are and shoot at the BH just like they would a Jugg.
You coral mobs for AoE, the Bh does better AoE threat thus keeps threat easier. On account of a mob aggroing to someone else the BH doesn't have to move the whole group out of the AoE or wait for the mob to come back, he simply pulls them. That is more efficient. Then there are things like a ranged stun that help control range mobs and a multitude of attacks to keep threat on that ranged mob without having to move the pile out of AoE. they are simply more efficient and don't trade anything for it.
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BH's can only pull 1 mob yes? So how is this game breakingly different than us? Instead of pulling the ranged to you, wrangle up the melee adds and then force charge onto the ranged. Melee mobs follow you, you aoe smash on all of them now and make sure you point them away from the group.
I don't have a BH but I'm assuming thats how it works..1 pull with a 1min CD? I don't see how a BH herds multple ranged that much better.
Pull has a 45 second cooldown and can be specced down to 35 seconds. They also get a charge on a 15 second cooldown. they can also grab threat at range much easier than Juggs can. They can do everything the Jugg can, but be more efficient at it and even do things the jugg can't (thanks to pull). It's quite literally a case of the class with the worst AoE and ranged aggro getting a key tool for dealing with such taken away, while the class that has much better ranged and AoE aggro getting to keep a tool for such without giving up anything else.
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Juggs can still stack as far as I can see, BW just wants you to do it with a "I come to you and herd you up and smash/aoe taunt" approach rather than "come to me" approach with SW class.
An easy fix would be to add a taunt mechanic into saber throw seeing as how they will probably never give us pull back.
BH can do that too (they get a charge as well). They don't have to use pull yet they can when needed. BH can do what we do and better along with do more than we can.
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You already have a ranged pull..its called saber throw...
Aslo taunt has some range on it..
And of course you also have charge>smash
Sweet the BH gets how many ranged pulls and even a range AoE pull? They shouldn't have pull either then. You again are failing to see the issue.
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PvE players don't really need pull. PvP players do. I play Vengeance and yes, Unstoppable is pretty awesome but it doesn't mean you win every fight vs a ranged. It lasts a whole 4 seconds, if the ranged has any brain at all all they have to do is wait until the little oh so obvious orange shield that forms on you is gone to use their knockback/CC on you.
Then you say "chilling scream them nub they won't get away." Why yes, I do chilling scream immediately after landing a charge(for free mind you.) Problem is most ranged classes have access to a slow of their own. Sooooo..knockback>snare and there is now a distance between us that I won't make up for. I am now left waiting for CD on charge to finish while I maybe do a saber throw for some rage and meh damage.
"Force Choke them nub" I would love to, but unfortunately the range is so abysmally small that I'm out of range after the knockback.
Only reason you'll ever stick on a ranged that isn't braindead is because their CC/Knockback is on CD or someone else is holding them for you. Rage Juggs have an easier time with a 2nd charge though. No one is going to die in the 4 seconds of CC free time you have, especially considering that you will get at most 3 abilities off in that time frame due to GCD.
Put pull on a 2 min cd, **** a 5 min CD. I don't care. Give me something. Make it a Vengeance high tree talent, replace one of our ****** bleeds with it or something.
It should be a tank talent not a vengeance talent. Tanks need it more in pve and it serves a tanks role more than a dps role.
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If you got force pull, you going to sacrifice force leap? You honestly think they would let you have both?
Ok, maybe they would, if they did then there going to have to make it so if you force pull your force leap gets put on cd and locked for x time. What you gain with one hand you lose with the other.
They let powertech have both along with ample ranges attacks and better AoE so I fail to see why they wouldn't let us have it and whyit would have to put charge on cooldown on use. It may have to share a cooldown with push, but I'm pretty sure most people would be fine with that.
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The more tools you have the easier it is to succeed. Ex: WoW's frost mage: Most tools / utility. Very easy to play. It doesn't require a high skill cap because because of all tools / utility at its disposal. WoW Warrior: Least amount of tools, not alot of utility thus its harder to succeed. How can the class with more tools require a higher skill cap? It's easier because of all the tools at its disposal. Less tools = harder to play = higher skill cap to become successful at the class.
Warrior actually has a ton of tools as well, 3 charges (well 2 now), spammable snare, stuns, knockdowns (they can pretty much stun lock you), spell reflects, heal debuff. Just required more effort to use those tools than what a frost mage needed.
Fost mages were easy to play not because of the tools but because of the ease of the tools. Basically they could use 3 skills and CC while doing crap loads of damage. At one point you only needed 1 skill to beat people in pvp.
A high skill cap class that has legitimate difficulty has all the tools yet take finesse and timing to use those tools. Jugg the most timing you really need is your interrupt. Otherwise it doesn't take much skill. More skill than a merc or BH yes, but those also perform better with equal skilled players. Having a class gimped just for the sake of difficulty is a very poor design.
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Actually, classes with high skill cap have less tools to work with which requires more skill because of the lack of tools at their disposal.. But I understand what you guys are complaining about. The thing that bothers me is the fact people are crying like Jugg is just unusable and completely broken. It's just harder. I understand that juggs have less utiliity. But my entire point is that they are being used in hard modes having no problems holding single target / multiple mob aggro having no problems what so ever so they ARE viable. Just harder.
Canoftuna could not have said it any better:
"Tanking on a Juggernaut is like trying to dig a 3 foot hole in the mud with your hands. Sure you can do it, but it's messy, it'll take you longer and requires more effort. Or you can go get yourself a nice shovel (Bounty Hunter) and get it dug faster and more efficiently."
I should make that my sig.
You have a wierd definition of high skill cap. Perfect example of a high skill cap is Ezreal in League of legends. Has lots and lots of tools but is utterly useless in the hands of a poor player, but magnificent and nearly unstoppable in the hands of a skilled player. Every high skill cap class I have played has had more tools than a faceroll class.
Essentially a a class that is hard to play but lacks the tools of the easier to play class will be beaten by the easier to play class if both players skills are equal. That is imbalance. It's never been an issue of the jugg not being able to do content. It's about the fact that the jugg is worse (even by a small margin) that pretty much every class that does it's roles (I do think assassins need a boost as well). Hard to play with no payoff.
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Okay? No I don't see the issue here. We don't need clone classes. BH's can do all that stuff; that's good for BH. People need to stop worrying about other classes abilities and just worry about their own. Juggs do just fine tanking in end game and more then capable of tanking all that content that is out and holding aggro. Imo, people just want things to be easier. It's well known by now that our class is more challenging and takes a higher skill cap to play. There is much footage of juggs tanking end game content and having no issues; Hard modes in all. So if it can be done, why not just do? Because it's more difficult then another class? People need to stop complaining and asking for easy mode and just rise to the task. Seeing / knowing it can be done should be enough.
It's not dificult because of deep mechanics. it's difficult because of flaws. We lack tools of other classes. We lack AoE threat in exchange for a needlessly high single target threat. we have less survivability as a dps that classes without tanking skills. Typically classes with high skill cap have more tools. Instead the classes that need to spam only 1 or 2 buttons get all the tools. Juggs get more buttons to press and less tools.
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want me to post my 300k damage and 100k+ protection games. there are flaws in the class, screen shot of a warzone can change that.
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QFT
I've been saying this all along. We don't need force pull. So what if another class has it or it "use" to be ours. Can every tank class in WoW death grip like a DK? No. Stop asking to be a clone / replica of other classes and learn to play jugg.
Dk also had no charges while the warrior had 3. BH get a charge and a pull and lots of range and AoE. Jugg gets a carge very limited range and little aoe. You seriously don't see the issue there?
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LMAO thanks for the compliment
Just saying you can't always say something is good if you do good on it. For example, I can get 300k damage and 100k protection in either void star or alderran if i really really wanted to. That however doesn't blind me to absolutely glaring flaws that players that know the game can take advantage of to leave your virtually defenseless.
We are extremely kitable while leap is on cooldown, unless you are rage spec and then you hit like a wet noodle between smashes. As immortal we hit like a wet noodle unless we are in dps gear thus can be pretty much ignored once our CC is used. With vengeance, people paying attention will wait to use their knockbacks and CC till after unstoppable falls off, leaving you stuck having to trudge back.
The healer I typically runs with knows these from dueling me thus he rarely needs me to peel a jugg off of him he handles the jugg himself while still healing me. We simply lack the tools as a dps spec that other dps specs get.
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You gave troopers and BH tanks a pull ability but removed the SW one? Seeing how they need are melee tanks and all.
For **** sake, just give us that ability back, we are not imbalanced in PVP as to cause some major issues, and we bloody need it. So please, go wake up the Jug dev and have him put on his seeing glasses.
We need Force Pull.
It's because it apparently made us unkiteable. Yet the BH and Troopers can get a charge in the tank tree or a CC immunity+run speed in another on top of having better Ranged and aoe abilities.
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Nope, something is interrupting you in this case. Outside of interruptions even if they move away it will complete.
Negative. Just did a huttball. Everytime the person simply runs out and I wiff. No interruption, my cast finishes. Many time that last blow would kill them (they have a sliver of health) and it does not damage with nothing interrupting me (them running away and no one else around me to interrupt me).
When and how will Juggernauts get buffed?
in Guardian / Juggernaut
Posted