So which ones were doing the damage? How much damage were you taking? Was it more than the healer could theoretically output? Were the mobs dying at a rate to enable success? Were dps focusing fire? Get a lot of speculation here. The data you want to look at is in game.. well.. it's not, but hey whatever. Think real hard.

Probably the dps. But maybe the healer. And maybe the tank. You could just look at the combat log see if anything was happening that you didn't notice.. oh wait.

Every few levels there was a quest or two with turret blasting. So I'd developed pretty good turret blasting skills and was wondering when I would be able to put them to use in a group situation. Then I got to this instance, and suddenly it all made sense. And even though it's hard to admit, channeling is my secret gaming delight. I really get into role playing someone holding down a button on a keyboard. My one complaint is that I was unable to fully engage with the door channeling - to be more immersive, we should have to hold down the right mouse button for the length of the channel.

Agree. If they want to put in an orbital station step when you need "innoculation" or "cold weather gear" or whatever, great. That's fine. But after that, just land on the planet. Or shuttle directly to the ship. Whatever. Just not empty passages of walking boredom.

It's a different perspective. It's taking "good play" (i.e. moving out of fire, using interrupts if needed, etc) as a baseline. Differentiating between good and better play. Double-checking to see if theorycrafted ability priorities coming through in practice. As opposed to, say, normal pug play. Where someone pressing buttons most of the time and moving out of fire sometimes is pretty good.

Correct. There are hardcore folks and then there are the rest. The hundreds vs the millions. The hardcores will take 100 wipes in stride. The rest will lose interest in as few as 2, especially if they don't understand why they're dying. The information void will hurt pugs worst of all. Unless it's easy enough that poor rotations, poor gearing, and poor talent choices can still win. Which means faceroll.

Without a combat log, this game will be exactly what you claim to fear. Faceroll. Or it will be completely inaccessible and hemorrhage players at cap. Those are the options in an information void.

I agree. And the awesome thing about not having meters is that everyone uses their ccs effectively. I've heard stories about how puggers have absolutely amazing focus in this game. Mobs get interrupted within .3 seconds of a cast. Nobody stands in aoe effects. It's incredible to see what data-free play is accomplishing.

It's a reasonable position. Like I consider anyone who uses flytext or tooltips to be cheating and playing easymode. My friend is pretty hardcore - he plays blindfolded without sound. I felt bad when my friend was mocking me for needing crutches like sight, but then I saw a guy on forums who had been playing while dead for the past 3 years. We agreed that was pretty hardcore and something to aspire to.

I turned shadows off because they're laughably poor quality. It's like a ghost of a different game.

Proposing a compromise like the OP is something you consider "sad"? Interesting take I suppose. BW will implement a combat log. If they provide an opt-out, it might help some of the folks hide whatever it is they apparently really want to hide.

I'm totally on board. But you know it's not perfect protection. Nothing can be. If they pug, they'll encounter some bad seeds. And these anti-folks obviously don't want more options for information. They want to take away options. For example, if you asked whether inspect should be in the game, I'm guessing the antis would just as loudly cry "NO!" to that as well. At least that would be a consistent position to take. Ultimately I think some folks just want a single-player game - where nobody judges, nobody pays attention, and nobody can ever be mean. And there's no game design proposal anyone can make to fully accomplish that objective. The only real solution is to avoid pugs.

We should all just press random buttons and be happy the game is so awesome!! Hi5!!

An opt-out option for the fearful still won't provide full protection from internet meanies. So they'll still be fearful. I'm pretty certain there's nothing anyone could propose that would fully protect the fearful from the meanies. If BW wants to provide an opt out, and implement group combat logs for the folks who want to do that, it seems like a fine compromise to me. But I'm perfectly fine with everyone seeing what I'm doing in any group anyway, so shrugs.

Thanks for the answer. Pretty sure there are folks who turn off flytext too. The pew pew pew can be somewhat entrancing. The game is definitely playable in solo content with no regard to ability use. As in, you can actually pick random buttons or not even look at the screen and win. In pvp you have random people doing random things, with no set performance bar. And a "dps meter" is definitely pointless there. Kinda begs the question though - if you don't care about the numbers, and don't do anything where the numbers even matter, why do you oppose the concept of an optional combat log as proposed by the OP?

Do you just press random buttons and enjoy the light show in this game? Honestly curious.

Yes indeed. DBM is an abomination in many ways. Logging and parsing observed events, not so much.

I'm having fun without a monitor. This game doesn't even need graphics. That's how amazing it is.

If this is unintentional irony, it's quite precious. If that post full of "facts" was parody, bravo. If not, well, um, carry on..

Did you read the post I was responding to? Or even the post you quoted? It was intended to be broad and inaccurate. The level of discussion over several hundred pages of nearly exactly the same points repeating ad nauseam needs the blanket statements. It's like a heartbeat. I have no intention of ever belittling some random player for their dps. I only play with friends. I want a group combat log. I'm also perfectly fine with players I don't and won't ever know hiding their stats from the random bogeymen they meet during play.

Means if pug players want other pug players to not see what they're doing, that's perfectly fine with me. I don't care if they do or don't, because I don't anticipate ever pugging. So I support the "opt out" option. I just want the option for group in-game stats among consenting adults. Or at the very least a group-wide log. Would be a total hassle to require every player to upload personal logs to an outside parser just to see basic information.

Yep. Puggers hiding their activities from one another is completely irrelevant imo. Let it be so.

I didn't make a blanket generalization like you did. I'll try to do better at emulating you: The people crying the loudest against combat logs are people who want to be involved in group play, but have no intention of contributing to group play.

Yes. The raid guilds want to pug with you and abuse you. It's a clear and present danger.

Should make a dungeon finder and set up a queue differential for: People who want group combat logging or not. People who want to roll need for companion or not. Then puggers can pug pug pug away to their heart's content with like minded folks. Allow formed groups to set up group combat logging and good to go.