Klarick Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Those are the single most useless things ever implemented in an MMO. When DPS meters are put in, people forget their class, forget their intended roles, and sometimes wipe entire groups just so they can say 'my numbers were higher than yours'. Please BW, and modding community (if there is one for this game), I beg you not to create any form of damage meter so that the classes focus on getting the job done, and not getting the insignificant numbers higher than other people's insignificants numbers. So very true. I have done countless runs through flashpoints and tons of the Heroic 4 missions. Not one time did anyone say anything derogatory to anyone else. The mobs were targeted and were killed. The tank tanked the healer healed and the dps hit stuff. Have had an awesome time to this point. In fact, oddly enough, the only complaining I have seen is only on these forums. The complaints seem to disappear in game. Odd. There are very few MMO's that actually have damage meters. Of course WoW, the biggest of them all has recount so everyone now thinks every MMO should have one. To be honest I dont mind the meter actually. When used by mature people it can be very helpful in tuning your charactr; however, as WoW has proven damage meters in the hands of children are never a good thing. TL/DR: The meters are fine. The attitude they bring is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtFrog Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) What are you on about? DPS meter also show who is doing their job and following commands...its not only about big numbers. Edited January 1, 2012 by SgtFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noggerr Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) So very true. I have done countless runs through flashpoints and tons of the Heroic 4 missions. Not one time did anyone say anything derogatory to anyone else. The mobs were targeted and were killed. The tank tanked the healer healed and the dps hit stuff. Have had an awesome time to this point. In fact, oddly enough, the only complaining I have seen is only on these forums. The complaints seem to disappear in game. Odd. There are very few MMO's that actually have damage meters. Of course WoW, the biggest of them all has recount so everyone now thinks every MMO should have one. To be honest I dont mind the meter actually. When used by mature people it can be very helpful in tuning your charactr; however, as WoW has proven damage meters in the hands of children are never a good thing. TL/DR: The meters are fine. The attitude they bring is not. **** are you seriously comparing tedious 4man level instances to end game Nightmare mode raiding?? and its not the mods that brings the attitude, that is already there... or are you saying that there wasnt clashes before wow had a parser? ...man i did ragnarok before parsers was there... and the community screamed for a parser.. Edited January 1, 2012 by noggerr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrage Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Damage Meters are the height of laziness. They don't contribute to raid encounters. They skew the data of the encounter. And all of the information can and should be figured out by hand if you really give a crap about the numbers. Here's an excellent example ... Blackwing Lair. Back in ye olden days of WoW. DPS for a Rogue and a Mage. First encounter, Razorgore. DPS meter tells us what exactly? Certainly not anything meaningful about winning the encounter. Next boss, Vaelstraaz. DPS Meter again tells us only that if a rogue tops the DPS charts (like i often did) ... I was ... a- Placed correctly. And b- healed by the paladin correctly. Not that I was doing anything better than anyone else. Broodlord . DPS Meter tells us what about this encounter? Nada. The toughest part of that fight is just getting there. Firemaw, Ebonroc and Flamegor. All endurance fests. The DPS Meter isn't giving you any useful information here. Chromaggus? Really? This fight is about the tactic, not the damage meter. And finally, Nefarian. The entire fight is again about coordination, not damage meters. Damage meters are indeed the height of laziness. And never have much at all to do with end-game raid encounters. Strategy. Tactics. Teamwork. That's how you beat raid encounters. Your damage meter can stay at home. When the hell is the last time you played World of Warcraft, 2005? It's not the end result after the fight that matters. It's knowing what you're capable of, and knowing how to compare it to other peoples' results. If I am a Combat specced rogue, I can expect to do about the same damage as any other Combat specced rogue in similar gear without any extra roles during the encounter. If I am NOT doing as much damage as another rogue (I can only TELL this if I have a meter), I am clearly doing something suboptimally and can maybe even ask that rogue for a few pointers. "Save your DPS cooldown for X phase," sometimes something as simple as that can boost a player's damage significantly, and bring the fight to an end quickly - the entire job of the DPS. DPS are not hangers-on who get a free ride while the tanks and healers do all the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klarick Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I don't give a damn about "adventure" when I'm trying to figure out if XxBoBAFeTTxX or SEPHIROTH42069 is the one that sucks and needs to be kicked in order for us to beat the boss. Or hey, I might even be the one that sucks. I would never know without a meter. If my damage is not where it should be because of user error, I want to know about it, so I can fix the problem. I strive for greatness in every game I play, and so should anyone who wants to be serious about completing content like Heroic modes or Raiding. Not that either of those, it seems, are difficult enough to warrant needing to be on top of your game to do. That's a whole other disappointment, and a whole other conversation. Thank you my friend for making my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 How do you know your damage is fine? With no boss enrage timers, what would be the purpose of dps meters? Survive boss abilities = win. Amazing concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneakymcstab Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) There are very few MMO's that actually have damage meters. Of course WoW, the biggest of them all has recount so everyone now thinks every MMO should have one. People have been using them since at least EQ1. With no boss enrage timers, what would be the purpose of dps meters? Survive boss abilities = win. Amazing concept. It would also make for a pretty boring fight. Edited January 1, 2012 by Sneakymcstab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) So you are seriously saying that 70% of the encounters arent about as high dps output as possible? In the example I cited, there was a single fight (Vale) that hinged on DPS. The rest of the zone was about tactics and coordination. Crowd control and management. If you'd like I'll run you through the Planes of Power? Vex Thal? Temple of Veeshan? And point out how often in EQ the fight was not about straight up burn him down DPS. The damage meter doesn't tell you anything important. It never did. Guilds beat content through teamwork and tactics. DPS has its place, and if your guild is even worth a damn, its officer or class leader knows how to train the DPS to do their job in the encounter. No, you don't need a damage meter to raid. You never did. As far as raid healing goes, google search The Quon and The Purple Club. Edited January 1, 2012 by SnoggyMack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajjw Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Damage Meters are the height of laziness. They don't contribute to raid encounters. They skew the data of the encounter. And all of the information can and should be figured out by hand if you really give a crap about the numbers. Here's an excellent example ... Blackwing Lair. Back in ye olden days of WoW. DPS for a Rogue and a Mage. First encounter, Razorgore. DPS meter tells us what exactly? Certainly not anything meaningful about winning the encounter. Next boss, Vaelstraaz. DPS Meter again tells us only that if a rogue tops the DPS charts (like i often did) ... I was ... a- Placed correctly. And b- healed by the paladin correctly. Not that I was doing anything better than anyone else. Broodlord . DPS Meter tells us what about this encounter? Nada. The toughest part of that fight is just getting there. Firemaw, Ebonroc and Flamegor. All endurance fests. The DPS Meter isn't giving you any useful information here. Chromaggus? Really? This fight is about the tactic, not the damage meter. And finally, Nefarian. The entire fight is again about coordination, not damage meters. Damage meters are indeed the height of laziness. And never have much at all to do with end-game raid encounters. Strategy. Tactics. Teamwork. That's how you beat raid encounters. Your damage meter can stay at home. Just because some idiots would use the tool incorrectly doesn't mean the tool should be banned (yes, the examples you talk about are all incorrect usages). As someone earlier said, just because someone could misuse a hammer and kill someone we don't go and outlaw hammers. A patent disregard of the intended use of a tool should never warrant the outlawing of said tool. Want some good examples of where DPS meters help? Al'Akir Heroic - Did a spark die too soon? Too late? If the former, who was attacking the spark? Were there too many DoTs on it? If the latter, who wasn't attacking the spark when they should be? Alternatively, the sparks are dying but you can't push the boss into his last phase because the Healers go OOM from too many Rain stacks. Why? Are people taking avoidable damage and thus making them work overtime? Or is the DPS too low? If the latter, how much more do we need? Nefarian Heroic - An add gets off his cast in P2. How many interrupts were used on the add? Someone dies to an Electrocute in P3, why? Did they use CDs? Did the Healers not get him to 100% HP in time? Omnotron Heroic - Someone got pwned by Arcanatron, why? How many interrupts did he receive? Did one miss or did a DPS just fail? A slime made it through to the Raid and one shot the Healers. Why? How many DPS were hitting the slimes? Someone pops a shield and wipes the Raid. Was it a DPS being silly and not swapping quick enough? Was it a mis-rallied pet? These are just a few examples from the top of my head where meters can be used PROPERLY to diagnose what went wrong and caused your Raid to wipe. This is what they should be used for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwamper Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Totally agree. To the OP: I'd be happy to team with you any day. To anyone who disagrees with the OP: Please do not team with me. I know what I'm doing, and I don't need a meter to see if someone does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 People have been using them since at least EQ1. Not really. In EQ 1 they just saved their combat log as a .txt file and used a simple program or spreadsheet to parse the damage stats they wanted. They didn't start appearing as in-game add-ons until later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrage Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 In the example I cited, there was a single fight (Vale) that hinged on DPS. The rest of the zone was about tactics and coordination. Crowd control and management. If you'd like I'll run you through the Planes of Power? Vex Thal? Temple of Veeshan? And point out how often in EQ the fight was not about straight up burn him down DPS. The damage meter doesn't tell you anything important. It never did. Guilds beat content through teamwork and tactics. DPS has its place, and if your guild is even worth a damn, its officer or class leader knows how to train the DPS to do their job in the encounter. No, you don't need a damage meter to raid. You never did. As far as raid healing goes, google search The Quon and The Purple Club. Again, you haven't been keeping up with the times. Almost all Warcraft bosses have an enrage timer, and the point of the enrage timer is to make DPS accountable. You still need coordination, you still need interrupts, you still need crowd control and you still need buffs/debuffs. You still need to stay out of the fire. But you also have to make sure you're killing that guy as fast as you possibly can, or your group wipes. It's fun, it's challenging, and it's impossible without knowing what you're capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) Again, you haven't been keeping up with the times. Obviously. But for this game? There's none of that which requires a DPS meter. You don't need it to beat anything in this game. Mostly people requesting it in this game just want to know what buttons to push in which order. Which all they'd need for that is a combat log. Something I do support them adding to the game. But then, I think people who really want to know what buttons to push in which order should do the hard work and the math themselves. Put some effort into things. Otherwise, it's ... as I said ... lazy. Edited January 1, 2012 by SnoggyMack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazooty Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Totally agree. To the OP: I'd be happy to team with you any day. To anyone who disagrees with the OP: Please do not team with me. I know what I'm doing, and I don't need a meter to see if someone does. 100,000 credits says you have no idea what you're doing, and are a bad trying to hide your badness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneakymcstab Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Not really. In EQ 1 they just saved their combat log as a .txt file and used a simple program or spreadsheet to parse the damage stats they wanted. They didn't start appearing as in-game add-ons until later. There have been parsers with in-game overlays that more or less do the same thing. But this is all semantics anyway. All I want is a combat log in the first place, anything else is fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masturomenos Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Damage Meters are the height of laziness. They don't contribute to raid encounters. They skew the data of the encounter. And all of the information can and should be figured out by hand if you really give a crap about the numbers. Here's an excellent example ... Blackwing Lair. Back in ye olden days of WoW. DPS for a Rogue and a Mage. First encounter, Razorgore. DPS meter tells us what exactly? Certainly not anything meaningful about winning the encounter. Next boss, Vaelstraaz. DPS Meter again tells us only that if a rogue tops the DPS charts (like i often did) ... I was ... a- Placed correctly. And b- healed by the paladin correctly. Not that I was doing anything better than anyone else. Broodlord . DPS Meter tells us what about this encounter? Nada. The toughest part of that fight is just getting there. Firemaw, Ebonroc and Flamegor. All endurance fests. The DPS Meter isn't giving you any useful information here. Chromaggus? Really? This fight is about the tactic, not the damage meter. And finally, Nefarian. The entire fight is again about coordination, not damage meters. Damage meters are indeed the height of laziness. And never have much at all to do with end-game raid encounters. Strategy. Tactics. Teamwork. That's how you beat raid encounters. Your damage meter can stay at home. That's a portion of thousands of fights that a meter is necessary. That's just couple and most fights are no longer designed like they were back then. We also used to have to have 2 groups of healers one to heal the other to wand for mana. Meters are there to help. Everything had a nostalgic feel looking back at the good ole days. Cars were cool when u had to wind them up but id rather use a key to start mine today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 All I want is a combat log in the first place, anything else is fluff. I'm ok with that. Making data accessible to the players is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazooty Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Obviously. But for this game? There's none of that which requires a DPS meter. You don't need it to beat anything in this game. Mostly people requesting it in this game just want to know what buttons to push in which order. Which all they'd need for that is a combat log. Something I do support them adding to the game. But then, I think people who really want to know what buttons to push in which order should do the hard work and the math themselves. Put some effort into things. Otherwise, it's ... as I said ... lazy. Lazy, HAHAHA. Yeah, sure man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 most fights are no longer designed like they were back then. No fights in THIS game are designed to require the tool. So there's no need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajjw Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Again, you haven't been keeping up with the times. Almost all Warcraft bosses have an enrage timer, and the point of the enrage timer is to make DPS accountable. You still need coordination, you still need interrupts, you still need crowd control and you still need buffs/debuffs. You still need to stay out of the fire. But you also have to make sure you're killing that guy as fast as you possibly can, or your group wipes. It's fun, it's challenging, and it's impossible without knowing what you're capable of. Indeed. A great example of this was Algalon 25man from Ulduar. He had a really tight enrage timer that made the fight demanding on your DPS. His last phase was a proper adrenaline rush hoping you'd get him to surrender before he blew up your entire Raid with Ascend to the Heavens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnerous Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) As a DD i approve the absence of a damagemeter, cause noone can see me failing.sucks to be a tank or healer and everyoen sees you failing? Edited January 1, 2012 by Carnerous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sernon Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I don't give a damn about "adventure" when I'm trying to figure out if XxBoBAFeTTxX or SEPHIROTH42069 is the one that sucks and needs to be kicked in order for us to beat the boss. Or hey, I might even be the one that sucks. I would never know without a meter. If my damage is not where it should be because of user error, I want to know about it, so I can fix the problem. I strive for greatness in every game I play, and so should anyone who wants to be serious about completing content like Heroic modes or Raiding. Not that either of those, it seems, are difficult enough to warrant needing to be on top of your game to do. That's a whole other disappointment, and a whole other conversation. Yes, I have noticed how important it is to kick people, and how they all suck without proper quantification. Good thing quantification can get them out even faster, preferably before they pick up any feeling for the encounter. --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jylian Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The people who are against add-ons/damage meters are just the extremely casual people that will never step foot in a raid or get past the first or second boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sendrel Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The damage meter doesn't tell you anything important. It never did. Guilds beat content through teamwork and tactics. DPS has its place, and if your guild is even worth a damn, its officer or class leader knows how to train the DPS to do their job in the encounter. Fast forward a couple years. DPS meters aren't just about dps anymore. You should look into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Fast forward a couple years. DPS meters aren't just about dps anymore. You should look into it. Fast forward to 2011, in a game called The Old Republic. DPS Meters aren't required to beat a single encounter in this game. You should look into that. It'll give you something to do before you go play with kung-fu pandas. Edited January 2, 2012 by SnoggyMack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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