Revan .... I'm Sorry, but Really?

[darthgroond]

I hope they do make him into a 'big boss' at some point in the future. Then I can enjoy beating on him a second time and finally finishing the job

[TheLordMagnus]

reven is the true down fall of the pure blood sith i will put money on it

and he doesnt go to 0 hp if u pay attion he stil had hp when he force walks so no hes no dead

the sith sorcc also does this in his story to a point

[DarthMetalJoey]

Yeah so i think he was really about to die... when he said malaks last words from kotor..... but remember he was already a master of the light and the dark... and he was in the emperors mind for 300 years.. the emperor. who became emperor by draining the life force of every sith lord and all life in general on nathema and im sure he learned some stuff in that time..... SO... i think that right as he was getting ready to bite the big one.. something came over him.. maybe he saw a glimpse of bastilla.. and t3 and the exile. and all his companions that he left to fight for. and something clicked in him.. and that's why he says those words but then something just clicks inside of him and he somehow unconsciously uses the abilty known as fold spae that allows a force user to teleport... look it up.... he dident become one with the force.. if he did... he would have left his robes behind.... he wouldent have gone up into the air and disapeared in a great flash of light..... revan will die.. but not yet.. he still has a part to play im sure....

 

hopefully he makes an appearance in all 8 character stories... and some crazy stuff happens then..., only time will tell.

[Rayla_Felana]

Never had any business being in a game set three hundred years into the future, what should have happened is LucasArts let Obsidian finish off KotOR II, develop the third game and then build TOR on-top of that, Obsidian was always the better writing team of the two.

[JediMasterRevan]

Never had any business being in a game set three hundred years into the future, what should have happened is LucasArts let Obsidian finish off KotOR II, develop the third game and then build TOR on-top of that, Obsidian was always the better writing team of the two.

 

< cough > incorrect < cough >

[Rayla_Felana]

< cough > incorrect < cough >

 

How exactly?

 

Learn the word 'opinion'.

[Sinemetu]

burning crusade with reven instead of illadin, thats whats gonna happen

 

We are not prepared!

[Captain_Zone]

< cough > incorrect < cough >

 

Actually, Obsidian had much better writing in KotOR II. Karpyshyn is a hack compared to Avellone.

[KBSIP]

Welcome to what happens when you give writers like Drew Karpyshyn carte blanche with your artistic materiel and don't subject them to a rigorous peer review process. This is also what lead to the breakdown of many story elements in mass effect 3, namely time constraints and hunger for capital drives a downgrade in quality and review processes. Edited July 8, 2012 by KBSIP

[Captain_Zone]

Welcome to what happens when you give writers like Drew Karpyshyn carte blanche with your artistic materiel and don't subject them to a rigorous peer review process. This is also what lead to the breakdown of many story elements in mass effect 3, namely time constraints and hunger for capital drives a downgrade in quality and review processes.

 

Two points. Drew only wrote "Taral V" and "Maelstrom Prison". He didn't write "Foundry". I have to admit, the Jedi Prisoner arc was well done, especially with Jeff Bennett (Kyle Katarn, Johnny Bravo) doing Revan's voice. That was frelling Epic. The only thing that could have made it better is if Chris Avellone had written it.

[AlyxDinas]

The only thing that could have made it better is if Chris Avellone had written it.

 

I suspect that if he had, it would have been a much less traditionally compelling arc. To its considerable detriment. And I say this as someone who adores Avellone and his writing philosophy. But if he'd done the Jedi prisoner arc, you would have released Revan only for him to be rendered braindead by the trauma or something like that.

 

Say what you will about BioWare's execution of Revan's arc throughout the whole game but at the very least it is tonally and thematically consistent with his nature as a tragic hero.

Edited July 8, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Eillack]

How Bioware killed a legacy was disgusting....Kotor I & II are pointless now...I never want to play those games ever again because of waht the Exile and Revan were turned into......your choises meant nothing and they are completely different characters now...a shame.

 

But, as many others have noticed..... The Foundry was only a setback.

[Rayla_Felana]

I suspect that if he had, it would have been a much less traditionally compelling arc. To its considerable detriment. And I say this as someone who adores Avellone and his writing philosophy. But if he'd done the Jedi prisoner arc, you would have released Revan only for him to be rendered braindead by the trauma or something like that.

 

Say what you will about BioWare's execution of Revan's arc throughout the whole game but at the very least it is tonally and thematically consistent with his nature as a tragic hero.

 

That's nothing like what they were setting up in KotOR II, we know as a matter of fact that if done properly, you would have met Revan at the end of the game, with far far more variations than you can imagine, KotOR III was going to be about all the after effects.

 

I see no reason why Avellone would take such a turn after building Revan up so much in his own writings, as a matter of fact, if he would have done the Jedi prisoner arc and been involved with the novel, there would be no canonical verifications and I imagine the Exile/Revan storyline would have been done far differently and much better, rather than Karpyshyn's typical attempts to hype characters over and over in his books, one more ridiculous than the last and then quickly kill off any character he wished to make his characters relevant, so the characters in this game seem to be majorly important in comparison.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[AlyxDinas]

That's nothing like what they were setting up in KotOR II, we know as a matter of fact that if done properly, you would have met Revan at the end of the game, with far far more variations than you can imagine, KotOR III was going to be about all the after effects.

 

I agree that we can say that, in all likelihood, we would not have met the characters again although I could easily be wrong. At a minimum, I disagree with your assertions about Revan as a character in KoToR II (since I don't think Revan was a character, in any true sense, in either KoToR game). For TSL, information provided about Revan's actions and agenda's largely comes from parties who are either speculating on Revan's intentions (see GOTO, Mical, or even HK) or otherwise too enthralled in their own ideologies for their assessment to be take at reliable (see Kreia). It tends to rob the supposed characterization of much concrete meaning, I think. So, for us to pretend that TSL was crafting a wildly different Revan is a bit of a stretch because the game itself constructs varied portraits.

 

As for the "matter of fact" part of your post, unless you've access to content I've never played in KoToR II or design docs that I've not read, which is not likely, I am unsure what you mean. Yet, it only furthers my general point that Revan is variable and, as such, the canon had no particularly set path that it had to deviate upon after the introduction of Avellone and his writing to the setting.

 

I see no reason why Avellone would take such a turn after building Revan up so much in his own writings

 

I certainly could see reason. Avellone develops from a design notion he calls "the scream" (watch his Design Akido '09 video on Youtube if you're curious to understand his general approach to game making). It's a direct reaction to something he finds he hates in a setting or a genre. See, for instance, his desire to make rats dangerous and death cheap in Planescape. Or his desire to question the Force's benevolence/will in TSL. These are admittedly sprung from his desire to subvert or otherwise topple certain conventions of RPGs in general and of Star Wars specifically. One imagines, regardless of TSL's mystifying of Revan, that Avellone might derive plenty of delight in directly subverting the more exaggerated aspects of Revan's "character". Especially since much of his planned work on Van Buren and indeed, some of his work in New Vegas revolves around the reduction of the player character and corresponding figures.

 

The bottom line is that we cannot let our love of Mr. Avellone's work (and I assure you that I adore his work, Black Isle's, and Obsidian's) blind us to the notion that "different", in this case, might not be equally consistent in terms of tone or theme as whatever he might have done. Doubly so because if anyone truly has rights to the Revan character, like it or not, it's Karpyshan. And, by and large, for the parts where Drew exhibited the most creative input on Revan's arc in TOR, it's not egregious/y overwrought (unless you count his mere presence as enough proof, in which case, I cannot help you). And, I will certainly argue that Revan, BioWare's Revan and Obsidian's Revan...was always a tragic hero and that TOR's arc largely reinforces that notion. As well it should. was it the best possible way to do so? Perhaps not, but it remained largely consistent with the narratives we'd been provided about Revan from any source.

 

As a side note, I have to question what "better" means for you. Ideally, in mind, both Revan and the Exile would have been long dead. But then, would we not be complaining about that in some form? Would it be better for us to have learned that the pair died in anonymity and ignobility? What slights are we really dealing with here? That the Exile was made fallible, for instance? To use a term so loosely is to devalue it, I'd suggest.

Edited July 9, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Captain_Zone]

I suspect that if he had, it would have been a much less traditionally compelling arc. To its considerable detriment. And I say this as someone who adores Avellone and his writing philosophy. But if he'd done the Jedi prisoner arc, you would have released Revan only for him to be rendered braindead by the trauma or something like that.

 

Say what you will about BioWare's execution of Revan's arc throughout the whole game but at the very least it is tonally and thematically consistent with his nature as a tragic hero.

 

Ummm.... no, actually it isn't. He didn't become a "tragic hero" until the Revan novel. He had been through the fires of hell and come back stronger. He had steeled himself against the Dark Side, and was arguably one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live. His understanding of the Dark Side gave him a unique perspective as a Jedi at the time. Now, about the only others to share that perspective are Luke, Mara, and Kyle in the post-RotJ novels/comics. Revan was the first to put forth the idea that positive emotions could strengthen the light side more than suppressing emotions, which was the common philosophy of most Jedi Councils throughout Star Wars history.

 

What made him a "tragic hero" was that he failed in his mission to destroy the Sith Emperor, and lost one of his best friends in the process. The fact that he was imprisoned for 300 years in stasis while fighting a mental war against the Emperor. During KotOR, he was on the road to redemption. During KotOR II, he was MIA. At the end of Foundry, he escapes using Fold Space. Somehow, I think he will return in future story updates. Most probably in the Jedi Knight storyline.

[AlyxDinas]

What made him a "tragic hero" was....

 

Finishing that for you. The Mandalorian Wars, was what.

 

Revan, in all media he's been present or discussed in, has always been about cold pragmatism for good intentions. Always. Utilitarianism has been a consistent factor of Revan's portrayal. Ends justifying means. Once you have the Mandalorian Wars and Malachor V in his backstory, you've set him on his course because you'e established a very real, pressing fact about his character.

Edited July 10, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Mancer]

I thought his last words were superb, it also fuels my jedi's rage to kill all sith . I would like to believe its not the end of revan but i think it was an ok way to go, it shows u that the character u play as is strong enough to be a match for Revan himself.

 

If your Jedi has rage to motivate him to kill then you are Sith, welcome to the darkside!

[bionamaster]

WARNING *SPOILER ALERT - SPOILER ALERT* DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT IT TO BE SPOILED******

 

As many players of the Empire know, there's a flashpoint where you enter a Foundry area [i'm mainly Republic so I don't know the name] and it was owned by Revan. I knew Revan had to be alive during the game even before I found out about the flashpoint. I had reasoning with Revan being so strong in the Force, he can survive 300 years as Yoda did for 800-900 years.

 

I was glad they gave him a face to his mysterious stranger personality of masking his face. [Did anyone catch the reference? ^_^] But the way you left his story was just horrible. I'm sorry, but the way HK was destroyed too was pretty bad as well. In KotOR II you have a mini-quest to repair him, and I'm sure if you had the chance to do so again you would, but he won't be the same and I'm positive the Empire just destroyed him.

 

Revan had such a rich history and made the KotOR games amazing. Revan was the star of it, not the Wars, not the companions, Revan. His book was amazing and answers some left-over questions we had such as the Emperor, True Sith, the Exile, etc. I just don't like how you left him like that was horrible.

 

His death should've had been more honorable and even make the most ruthless Empire players feel bad about killing him. I hope you plan on doing something with his death like maybe he transported through the Force or something. I know it was time to say good-bye to our faithful friend, but I just think it should've been more cinematic for him. He is the one of the only reasons why The Old Republic was made and had so much success because KotOR players knew the back-story.

 

I hope you enjoyed part of my rant, just sad to see his death this way instead of another way.

First, HK's parts were salvaged by Malgus, and he is defeated again by the strike team fighting their way through False Emperor Flashpoint. His Wookieepedia page also revealed that at some point a long time after the events of SWTOR (makes me sad thinking my Jedi Sentinel has been long dead at that point ), HK was on a ship that crashed on Mustafar. His parts stayed there until the end of the Clone Wars. CIS Scientists activated HK-47, and the assassin droid went on a rampage that ended in massive Separatist casualties. They managed to deactivate him not long before Dark Jedi Anakin Skywalker stormed the CIS base there and slaughtered the Separatists while under the orders of Emperor Palpatine.

 

I vaguely remember (I skimmed through the part after Anakin's assault) reading that when they deactivated him, The Separatists actually uploaded his "consciousness" into the remains of the crashed starship where he was found. Eventually, he used this starship to contact a group of spacers to destroy a factory where the CIS had been making more assassin droids based off HK, and to build him a new body. Upon their success, they recieved a hologram of HK with "Meatbags" written at the base. Eventually, at some point during the Galactic Civil War or so, he was found and somehow reconstructed into a jetpack used by a Rebel, "much to his protest".

 

As for Revan's disappearance, this was more of a crowd pleasing move on Bioware's part. I read that in Beta, Revan died in a standard fashion, with his cold, dead, body sprawled at your feet with a nice big loot beacon shining up at you. Not a great move for the KOTOR fans out there. So, they "ambiguated" it. The disappearance could mean he became one with the Force, like Obi-wan and Yoda; or it could mean he managed to escape by somehow "beaming" himself to a distant planet (a long shot, but still possible). However, his final words suggest otherwise, but his "teleportation" could have been inadvertant, and he simply rematerialized on some undiscovered planet (Oddly, I remembered a seeing a picture of his mask in the game. Hmmm....). At either rate, the ending is designed to leave room for interperetation. A skilled move on Bioware's part, if you ask me.

[maestruljedi]

As for Revan's disappearance, this was more of a crowd pleasing move on Bioware's part. I read that in Beta, Revan died in a standard fashion, with his cold, dead, body sprawled at your feet with a nice big loot beacon shining up at you. Not a great move for the KOTOR fans out there. So, they "ambiguated" it. The disappearance could mean he became one with the Force, like Obi-wan and Yoda; or it could mean he managed to escape by somehow "beaming" himself to a distant planet (a long shot, but still possible). However, his final words suggest otherwise, but his "teleportation" could have been inadvertant, and he simply rematerialized on some undiscovered planet (Oddly, I remembered a seeing a picture of his mask in the game. Hmmm....). At either rate, the ending is designed to leave room for interperetation. A skilled move on Bioware's part, if you ask me.

 

Agreed, a skilled move. Revan's "end" should be left to our imagination and preference. I don't get why many people hate Revan, he is a complex character, made complex by the story and by ourselves and the way we played it as well. Compared to the second-hand characters we got in the movies, Revan is gold. Kotor did for the SW universe more than anything lucas could come up with, it's the reason we got a little bit of depth in this franchise. Revan's story made a lot of sense even though it's sad somewhat.

 

Here's my take on it: Revan starts out to meet the threat of the Mandalorians. He stops at nothing to defeat them, hence Malachor V and the "birth" of the Exile (which was a great general and saw eye to eye with Revan as it is said in the novel). He then proceeds to find the greater threat and comes across the True Sith, but he and Malak are subdued by the Emperor (which is very strong). When he finally escapes the influence of the Emperor he knows he needs to defeat him, but also knows he cannot do it alone. However, he also knows from his own past that the Jedi will not act so he sets out to conquer the Republic in order to prepare it for war. The events of kotor I follow here, and we know from cannon that he defeated Malak, saved the Republic, romanced Bastila and set off to the unknown regions.

 

KotoR 2 for me had a lot more depth, because it wasn't all about choosing between light and dark, but about consequences, about the Force being grey and about the Force not being absolute. The Exile survived in the outer rim by using other skills aside the Force, which only made her stronger, jedi across the galaxy were still reeling after the wound in the force left by the Malachor V detonation and so on. Kreia's lessons were just the cherry on top in this game, the way she shows you that any act of mercy or cruelty has a greater impact than anticipated, or when she says that the jedi and sith of old could pick their teeth with today's jedi... man, she just takes the cake. Also the fact that the Force isn't absolute was also strongly suggested (see ways to kill jedi, by Atton Rand and HK-47).

 

So if the first kotor was all black and white, the second is all grey. In the novel Revan and the Exile are reunited and they still see eye to eye, which makes me think that these characters don't see the world in black and white, but in grey, and it's clear that they have the same priorities.

 

Now, things that don't make much sense for me. Lord Scourge is the one that betrays Revan and kills the Exile. And he becomes a companion for the Jedi Knight ? Come on. Revan killed by four nerds ? Come on. Don't give me "we're influencing the galaxy". No you're not. I don't care if you kill the high chancellor or you're in the dark council. You're not the only one. There's a ton more characters just like yours, a thousand that look exactly like you look, a hundred that did exactly everything you did.

 

You know, i hate this, one reason i loved vanilla wow was that i was inconsequential to the story line. I was just a grunt. I did my job, i killed my boars, i ran Maraudon, i killed my fair share of Alliance players and that was all. It was never implied that i'm the center of the universe. That's why when i'd get commended by Thrall himself it would feel special. This kind of Age of Conan, you-are-the-one crap is getting old. It's how you destroy franchises. Oh, Arthas, Illidan and Zul'Jin are cool ? Let's make them bosses so some geeks can kill them. And please, don't tell me "it was their time". It wasn't their time until some story writer decided it was, or had to push some publisher's agenda.

 

Vanilla WoW was a LOT more elaborate than any of the expansions that came after, without feeling the need to kill any central characters whatsoever. Even the old Naxx left room for continuity, you give the phylactery of KT to some guy for gold, which hints that KT keeps coming back because of someone's greed (perfectly legitimate in my book). So, let's get this straight. I don't want to feel special when i see a thousand other "special" guys and gals (ahaha, nah, just kidding, no gals here). It just feels FAKE. Make me a grunt, i have no issues with that thing. Either as a free agent, a dependable servant to the Republic/Empire or a selfish traitor, it's all cool. You don't need me to change the galaxy. It's a MMO, you need a hundred thousand like me to make a dent. Let that reflect in the TOR story and it will feel more real. Aww, what, some people want to make a difference and be the hero ? You can clean up your room and make a difference and be a hero to mum and dad. There. That's real.

 

Following the current trend, three TOR expansions from now we'll get a quest that will reveal that YOU, the player, is the actualy ancestor of Anakin Skywalker/Ben Kenobi/Boba Fett etc etc. You want that ? I don't. Maybe by then lucas will further edit the movies, so Harrison's Ford features will be molded to look like your smuggler, and once again he will shoot first. Or at the end of Return of the Jedi, your own Jedi Consular will be there in the fire with Kenobi, Yoda and Vader. Yeah, wouldn't that be cool ? Sure, kid. You're a hero. Now grow up.

 

Crap like this, killing Revan or Malgus with a group of nerds just like me feels lame. Like you'd call your cousin and pick up a stranger and his spouse from the street, arm yourselves with some baseball bats and kick the living jesus out of Batman. Just like that. Make no mistake, Revan is the Batman of TOR. Like Batman, he is flawed, he is human, but he is several hundred levels of cool no mere fat kid should be able to defeat.

 

So there. That's why Revan's end doesn't make sense to me. The only thing i'm grateful about is the "ending of the end", which leaves room for interpretation, but seeing how BW likes to copy Blizz in story-telling and not just faulty game mechanics, i'd much rather never seeing Revan again than getting him as a boss or something in those lines.

 

Aaaaanyway.

[Captain_Zone]

Finishing that for you. The Mandalorian Wars, was what.

 

Revan, in all media he's been present or discussed in, has always been about cold pragmatism for good intentions. Always. Utilitarianism has been a consistent factor of Revan's portrayal. Ends justifying means. Once you have the Mandalorian Wars and Malachor V in his backstory, you've set him on his course because you'e established a very real, pressing fact about his character.

 

Once again, ummmm.... no. Malachor V was after he had already fallen to the Dark Side, along with most of the Jedi he brought with him. His cold pragmatism was because of the Dark Side influence he had allowed into himself. Like most fallen Jedi, he thought he could handle it. However, during KotOR (the Canon version), he stopped doing things that way. He wasn't all about "Do what you have to do." He was all about "Help whoever needs help." Even after his memory returned, he was all about helping people and seeking redemption for what he'd done. That is the reason "Foundry" is so ridiculous. Revan KNEW what would happen to him if he went down that road again.

[AlyxDinas]

Once again, ummmm.... no. .

 

To begin with, spare me your condescension. It will allow me to take you far more seriously. As it stands, my reply to you is already more than you've earned.

 

His cold pragmatism was because of the Dark Side influence he had allowed into himself.

 

Yet, we know his pragmatism was characteristic of him even in the early stages of the war. The dark side excuse becomes just that...an excuse. We know it becomes more pronounced as time goes on but we also know that Revan and Malak do not fall, completely, until they reach Unknown Space. Heck, we even know that Alek was prone to fury before the war began in earnest, for instance. Their fall was a process, yes, but the notion that it did not magnify things that were already there is shortsighted.

 

He wasn't all about "Do what you have to do." He was all about "Help whoever needs help."

 

These are not, necessarily, mutually exclusive notions. The narrative of the Mandalorian Wars actually reinforces this notion. Wherein, Revan was moved to help whoever needed help but compelled, through action, to do what he deemed necessary to achieve this goal. It's actually a common tragic narrative convention. Pride/hubris actually being Revan's other major flaw.

 

As for KotOR canon, the only canon (barring small references) is the the light side ending holds. Wookiepedia's version beyond that is assumption. We cannot impart assumption onto Revan's character. What little he had in that game, that is.

 

Even after his memory returned, he was all about helping people and seeking redemption for what he'd done.

 

And for all of this, we still have a character who is, even in KotOR alone, painted as someone with good intentions but victimized by circumstance. This is also true in TOR. You simplify him by imbuing him with a stagnant purity that he never possessed even by the end of KoToR.

 

To be clearer about it, let's look at Revan. A man who leaps at war when the innocent are threatened and takes to conflict with a naturally keen mind, only to become more like the demons he's battling. A man who, fearing a greater threat, leaves the galaxy, is converted to darkness, and returns to lay it to ash. A man betrayed by his best friend and puppeteered by the Jedi against his will or knowledge. A man who, upon seeking his redemption, cannot shake feelings of dread and again leaps to protect those he loves. Who is betrayed, despite giving trust. Captured, abused, tortured. Whose mind is seeped in darkness but stands firm to hold on to his purpose. Yet, who is irrevocably broken. A man who again rushes to fight darkness, as he did in his youth, and stumbles once more.

 

Revan's story has always been about good intentions versus larger circumstances and how heroic qualities are shaped, warped, and altered by the times the hero lives in and the hardships they've endured. I wonder now where is the apparent thematic departure that is so blatant in TOR? Are we merely in awe that he repeats mistakes? Upset that he is rendered eminently fallible? If so, then such complaints are meaningless since the character still retains the essence that he's always had. Revan was no saint, even after KoToR he was a man who didn't even stay in the galaxy to deal with the fallout of his foolishness. No, Revan, for all his mystifying and for all the fanwankery....was simply a man who meant well but fate saw to hamstring. And that's all he ever has been and ever will be.

 

That is the reason "Foundry" is so ridiculous. Revan KNEW what would happen to him if he went down that road again.

 

This statement only matters if he was of sound mind during the events. He clearly is not. And that's not even, by and large, attributable to whatever fall towards darkness he is making but rather as a consequence of his imprisonment. For us to believe that Revan circa the Cold War must be the same as Revan circa the end of the Jedi Civil War is not just wrong but actually rather silly.

 

 

Crap like this, killing Revan or Malgus with a group of nerds just like me feels lame. Like you'd call your cousin and pick up a stranger and his spouse from the street, arm yourselves with some baseball bats and kick the living jesus out of Batman. Just like that. Make no mistake, Revan is the Batman of TOR. Like Batman, he is flawed, he is human, but he is several hundred levels of cool no mere fat kid should be able to defeat.

 

You actually believe this too, which is astonishing given the lessons you apparently gleaned from KotOR II. If you that the most skilled individuals of their day, canonically, cannot defeat a power diminished, recently imprisoned, madman....then you certainly are giving Revan credit that he hasn't earned.

Edited July 10, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Captain_Zone]

To begin with, spare me your condescension. It will allow me to take you far more seriously. As it stands, my reply to you is already more than you've earned.

 

 

 

Yet, we know his pragmatism was characteristic of him even in the early stages of the war. The dark side excuse becomes just that...an excuse. We know it becomes more pronounced as time goes on but we also know that Revan and Malak do not fall, completely, until they reach Unknown Space. Heck, we even know that Alek was prone to fury before the war began in earnest, for instance. Their fall was a process, yes, but the notion that it did not magnify things that were already there is shortsighted.

 

 

These are not, necessarily, mutually exclusive notions. The narrative of the Mandalorian Wars actually reinforces this notion. Wherein, Revan was moved to help whoever needed help but compelled, through action, to do what he deemed necessary to achieve this goal. It's actually a common tragic narrative convention. Pride/hubris actually being Revan's other major flaw.

 

As for KotOR canon, the only canon (barring small references) is the the light side ending holds. Wookiepedia's version beyond that is assumption. We cannot impart assumption onto Revan's character. What little he had in that game, that is.

 

 

 

And for all of this, we still have a character who is, even in KotOR alone, painted as someone with good intentions but victimized by circumstance. This is also true in TOR. You simplify him by imbuing him with a stagnant purity that he never possessed even by the end of KoToR.

 

To be clearer about it, let's look at Revan. A man who leaps at war when the innocent are threatened and takes to conflict with a naturally keen mind, only to become more like the demons he's battling. A man who, fearing a greater threat, leaves the galaxy, is converted to darkness, and returns to lay it to ash. A man betrayed by his best friend and puppeteered by the Jedi against his will or knowledge. A man who, upon seeking his redemption, cannot shake feelings of dread and again leaps to protect those he loves. Who is betrayed, despite giving trust. Captured, abused, tortured. Whose mind is seeped in darkness but stands firm to hold on to his purpose. Yet, who is irrevocably broken. A man who again rushes to fight darkness, as he did in his youth, and stumbles once more.

 

Revan's story has always been about good intentions versus larger circumstances and how heroic qualities are shaped, warped, and altered by the times the hero lives in and the hardships they've endured. I wonder now where is the apparent thematic departure that is so blatant in TOR? Are we merely in awe that he repeats mistakes? Upset that he is rendered eminently fallible? If so, then such complaints are meaningless since the character still retains the essence that he's always had. Revan was no saint, even after KoToR he was a man who didn't even stay in the galaxy to deal with the fallout of his foolishness. No, Revan, for all his mystifying and for all the fanwankery....was simply a man who meant well but fate saw to hamstring. And that's all he ever has been and ever will be.

 

 

 

This statement only matters if he was of sound mind during the events. He clearly is not. And that's not even, by and large, attributable to whatever fall towards darkness he is making but rather as a consequence of his imprisonment. For us to believe that Revan circa the Cold War must be the same as Revan circa the end of the Jedi Civil War is not just wrong but actually rather silly.

 

 

 

 

You actually believe this too, which is astonishing given the lessons you apparently gleaned from KotOR II. If you that the most skilled individuals of their day, canonically, cannot defeat a power diminished, recently imprisoned, madman....then you certainly are giving Revan credit that he hasn't earned.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. You have your view. I have mine. If you don't like it, don't reply to it. And you mistook levity for condescention. I don't have to earn anything in your eyes. You don't decide what I deserve. I don't judge you. You don't judge me. Period.

[Kyriosgundam]

WARNING *SPOILER ALERT - SPOILER ALERT* DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT IT TO BE SPOILED******

 

As many players of the Empire know, there's a flashpoint where you enter a Foundry area [i'm mainly Republic so I don't know the name] and it was owned by Revan. I knew Revan had to be alive during the game even before I found out about the flashpoint. I had reasoning with Revan being so strong in the Force, he can survive 300 years as Yoda did for 800-900 years.

 

I was glad they gave him a face to his mysterious stranger personality of masking his face. [Did anyone catch the reference? ^_^] But the way you left his story was just horrible. I'm sorry, but the way HK was destroyed too was pretty bad as well. In KotOR II you have a mini-quest to repair him, and I'm sure if you had the chance to do so again you would, but he won't be the same and I'm positive the Empire just destroyed him.

 

Revan had such a rich history and made the KotOR games amazing. Revan was the star of it, not the Wars, not the companions, Revan. His book was amazing and answers some left-over questions we had such as the Emperor, True Sith, the Exile, etc. I just don't like how you left him like that was horrible.

 

His death should've had been more honorable and even make the most ruthless Empire players feel bad about killing him. I hope you plan on doing something with his death like maybe he transported through the Force or something. I know it was time to say good-bye to our faithful friend, but I just think it should've been more cinematic for him. He is the one of the only reasons why The Old Republic was made and had so much success because KotOR players knew the back-story.

 

I hope you enjoyed part of my rant, just sad to see his death this way instead of another way.

 

From what I saw on YouTube (I have not played any of the Imperial flashpoints yet by the way). That the Empire didnt actually kill Revan in the end. At least thats the impression I got from watching the video of the final conversation at the flashpoints end. All we can do is see what direction BioWare takes the character.

[bionamaster]

Agreed, a skilled move. Revan's "end" should be left to our imagination and preference. I don't get why many people hate Revan, he is a complex character, made complex by the story and by ourselves and the way we played it as well. Compared to the second-hand characters we got in the movies, Revan is gold. Kotor did for the SW universe more than anything lucas could come up with, it's the reason we got a little bit of depth in this franchise. Revan's story made a lot of sense even though it's sad somewhat.

.

Now, things that don't make much sense for me. Lord Scourge is the one that betrays Revan and kills the Exile. And he becomes a companion for the Jedi Knight ? Come on. Revan killed by four nerds ? Come on. Don't give me "we're influencing the galaxy". No you're not. I don't care if you kill the high chancellor or you're in the dark council. You're not the only one. There's a ton more characters just like yours, a thousand that look exactly like you look, a hundred that did exactly everything you did.

Aaaaanyway.

 

First of all, thank you for agreeing

Second of all, to answer your questions:

For Scourge:

 

The Jedi he saw in his vision, the one that led him to betray Revan, was the Hero of Tython, the Jedi Knight player. He wants to destroy the Emperor. So he joins you, as you are his best bet to do so.

 

Revan's Death: 1. You just called everyone in this forum a nerd. 2. The point is: In your characters story, you are the only one. It's like reading a "choose your path" book. Everyone may have made your decisions, but "you" made those decisions. Doesn't matter if there a thousand others who killed a famous Sith or Jedi, or won a great contest. "You" killed that person, "You" won that contest. You with me?

[JediMasterYuvan]

Revan is not dead. He disappeared before the killing blow could be dealt. Revan deserves to be super powerful. Even as Kreia said, "Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force." The only reason Revan lost is because he was trapped in stasis for 300 years, similar to how Khem Val was trapped in stasis even longer than that and was just a warrior who consumed death.

 

Revan was also corrupted. That's how he came to know the location of the Foundry (We never knew that Revan found the Foundry before or during KOTOR. Not during the Mandalorian Wars. Not during the Jedi Civil War. Not during his quest to find the Sith Emperor. RIGHT when he was corrupted.) and resorted to doing what he did during the Mandalorian Wars: killing billions for the sake of destroying the Republic's enemies.