'End' game silliness.

[Enako]

I see a lot of people blabbering about 'endgame'. and i recently noticed that it was a silly, silly concept. ENDgame - consider :

 

the word itself even signifies end of something - ENDgame. end of a game. basically, what it means is you play through all the game, and at the end, you reach a point.

 

BUT, for some reason, this 'end'game is supposed to last longer than THE game itself - DESPITE that the entire game is traversed and completed.

 

at this point someone would come up and say that there is 'content' in endgame. and when you query what that content is, it ends up being 20-40 repetitions of some set up dungeons over and over. and, during this ordeal, the statistics on a player's overall gear progresses with 1-5% per 1-1.5 weeks rate.

 

and this is called 'endgame'. and, players of a certain segment want everything, including crafting, revolve around this particular 'endgame'.

 

now, take a moment and think totally objectively, with a perspective from outside gaming ; from wherever you look at it, this thing is just repeating the SAME thing over and over, 20-30 times, a time which spans MORE time than you the game content you had seen to get there. and, you see the SAME thing there over and over.

 

the only thing that is hooking these people to this, is the gear drops and the gear progression. a bold claim, but true - notice ; nomatter who you are, doing the SAME thing 20 times would get you bored the hell out of you regarding content - there is no 'content' when you do the same raid 14th time, and see the same events take place for the 14th time.

 

so it has to be gear drops and statistics progression fixation.

 

no - it cant be 'doing things in a group' either - for there are endless opportunities for doing things in groups prior to this 'endgame' these people talk about. but, they dont do these. when they do their grouping is in 'endgame', and it stays there. everything else is peripheral in the game.

 

repetition kills fun.. noone can claim otherwise. even the people who like to repeat endgame raids for 30 times - because the SAME people talk about how things got boring, even the voice acting got boring when they were doing the same quests in lower levels even in this game. so, basically, they too dont like repetition.

 

there are drops with high/low percent changes while leveling/questing too. it is possible to group while leveling/questing too. so then, why are these people getting bored with these ?

 

the difference is in being maxed out or not. it follows another fixation in the hardcore grindscene - 'gear is easy to get' -> technically what is desired is, gear/drops should not be easy to get, the person who is pursuing that grind philosophy should spend effort, require gear that is better than other people's and be 'ahead of them in progress'. actually, this is nothing but a feeling of superiority over one's peers through possessions one identifies with - gear and titles in this case, instead of a house and a car.

 

i respect such needs and such inclinations. however, they are not a harmonious existence with others ; if there isnt a hardcoded, all encompassing hierarchical progress scheme, it fails - and if there is, it makes everyone obliged to itself - it is not fun, or it is not all encompassingly democratic/coexisting.

 

 

............................

 

let me tell you what i think should be - a game should be 'game' at any given point in its playthrough. there can not be any kind of separations regarding 'endgame' or 'leveling'. these are just the travesties everquest and wow afflicted mmo gaming with. no son of god would sit and play the same end part of a single player game, or multiplayer capable single player game with his/her friends for 20 times. and noone expects them to.

 

a game should be fun and entertaining at any given point, and there should not be an 'endgame' that comes to being by subjecting people to repetitive instance/raid runs for progressing 3 to 5% performance on their gear statistics, in groups of 20.

 

 

 

at most, the period should be so arranged that, after 3-4 runs of the 'endgame' instances/raids, the game should be complete at that point, and a new expansion should have already been out. and all the players should progress to the new storyline and new adventure in front of them, instead of repeating the same stuff 20-30 times over and over, hooked only by low percent chance item drops.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Enako

[Shadysketchy]

I think you completely forgot to factor in realistic expectations for Content Development, from a Design Team with the aptitude, funding, and size of SWTOR's

[twistedtime]

Ugh, your last paragraph isn't well thought out.

 

My god: me and shady agree?? are the planets aligned?

Edited January 1, 2012 by twistedtime

[liquidpension]

OP - what you're saying applies to all mmo's out there on the market. Are you surprised?

[Blackwater]

I think you completely forgot to factor in realistic expectations for Content Development, from a Design Team with the aptitude, funding, and size of SWTOR's

 

Someone put a nice bow on that and stick it in every thread on the forums

[Enako]

I think you completely forgot to factor in realistic expectations for Content Development, from a Design Team with the aptitude, funding, and size of SWTOR's

 

it is quite odd to see you not trolling to persuade people how bad swtor is, today. yesterday you persuaded me four times to cancel my account and go back to wow.

 

..................

 

that said, there's this :

 

trying to make things fun while people repeat the same dungeon 30 times, is much much more harder than trying to make things fun while bringing a new adventure/content.

 

that's what we see in wow 'endgame'. you go over the same raid the 15th time. you see the same things over and over. you know where to jump where to duck where to crap where to sleep - and it is evident that much effort was spent to everything in the dungeon to make it something.

 

but, you know inside - it got boring in the 5th run. and no queer endgame boss has been able to change it at any given point.

 

that is the problem of an elongated endgame - NO amount of effort can make repeating same thing 20 times, fun, and you spend huge resources and manpower to trying to achieve it.

 

it shouldnt be done. progress should go towards the next expansion, along with players. the story too. there is no point in seeing arthas be mauled for the 10th time.

[Enako]

OP - what you're saying applies to all mmo's out there on the market. Are you surprised?

 

it doesnt.

 

it applies to all everquest/wow clones in the market. not all games are wow clones.

 

lotro, for example, pumps out new expansions (books) like there's no tomorrow. granted, they are sitting on lotro lore and have already made content.

 

but its not like the outfits like bioware, blizzard, which also have huge resources and also well established lores, cannot put out content fast enough.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Enako

[twistedtime]

Your missing an element in your equation. and god you write alot it hurts me.

[Enako]

Your missing an element in your equation. and god you write alot it hurts me.

 

then elaborate that missing element.

[twistedtime]

then elaborate that missing element.

 

I'm too lazy, uncordinated and generally to much of an a-hole to factor in some stuff. someone will bring it up maybe.

 

Shady, im betting on u.

[joeragu]

I enjoy raiding and I don't mind at all running the same raid content over again. What does get boring is WIPING a million times because people just can't get the fight down.

 

So killing a boss over again in a timely manner can be fun. When it's no longer fun I can do something else or even take a break and play another game. Don't see anything fundamentally wrong with "endgame".

 

Dying in the same place, due to the same cause without any alteration of tactics is very, very boring however.

[KoukosGamer]

Thats why Diablo had a huge success and it seems noone learned from it....the randomness kept people coming back for more....the dungeons changed all the times.. the items/looks on gear were completely random and unexpected... noone had the same set at the endgame..etc etc..... for example one thing that killed wow for me was knowing exactly what items drom from which boss etc etc.... and im afraid the same will happen with swtor at the end ...which wont be 6 years from now..

[liquidpension]

it doesnt.

 

it applies to all everquest/wow clones in the market. not all games are wow clones.

 

lotro, for example, pumps out new expansions (books) like there's no tomorrow. granted, they are sitting on lotro lore and have already made content.

 

but its not like the outfits like bioware, blizzard, which also have huge resources and also well established lores, cannot put out content fast enough.

 

Well, we don't know what will be the pace at which BW will feed the game with content, so it's too early to judge it.

[Enako]

ly manner can be fun. When it's no longer fun I can do something else or even take a break and play another game. Don't see anything fundamentally wrong with "endgame"..

 

the fundamentally wrong thing with 'endgame' is, it requires ENTIRE game to be designed around it, and everything be spent for it. and everyone's gameplay to be b**ches to it. it is not right.

 

Well, we don't know what will be the pace at which BW will feed the game with content, so it's too early to judge it.

 

they have the possibility of pumping out better content, faster than wow - since star wars is basically an open ended universe.

 

wow on the other hand, was running on a grand story like lotro - defeating an arch evil which develops through the story - there is only that much you can pull before the arch evil is defeated. if you dont let it happen at a certain point, people get bored. if you do, you basically exhausted your main story. after that, you would have to resurrect 'old archevils' like that dragon in cataclysm, or invent 'yet another new arch evil'.

 

that is the bane of the grand story arcs.

 

if, swtor was based on star wars from episode 4 and on, it would be afflicted with the same too. you cant keep a grand story forever. and you cant continue a story, if you dont take the leap of letting arch evil/grand story to be complete, and starting to tell about the aftermath.

 

star wars would also work with 'aftermath' actually, even after episode 6. imagine - all that empire, all that resources, organizations, will just go away when the emperor is dead ? definitely not. the 'remnant' thing that passes in expanded universe is logical, even if expanded universe stuff itself is generally crap. the galaxy post episode 6 would be much more chaotic and active than before it.

 

but swtor is based on 4000 years before all these. so, anything is possible. as long as they do not exhaust the 3500 year or so time period they have in allowance before episode 1, they can do anything. 3500 years, because it would require some time for the galaxy to get into shape for episode 1 through whatever had had happened in between.

[Rikalonius]

............................

 

let me tell you what i think should be - a game should be 'game' at any given point in its playthrough. there can not be any kind of separations regarding 'endgame' or 'leveling'. these are just the travesties everquest and wow afflicted mmo gaming with. no son of god would sit and play the same end part of a single player game, or multiplayer capable single player game with his/her friends for 20 times. and noone expects them to.

a game should be fun and entertaining at any given point, and there should not be an 'endgame' that comes to being by subjecting people to repetitive instance/raid runs for progressing 3 to 5% performance on their gear statistics, in groups of 20.

 

 

 

at most, the period should be so arranged that, after 3-4 runs of the 'endgame' instances/raids, the game should be complete at that point, and a new expansion should have already been out. and all the players should progress to the new storyline and new adventure in front of them, instead of repeating the same stuff 20-30 times over and over, hooked only by low percent chance item drops.

 

You'd have a scintilla of a point if it wasn't for your bombastic presentation.

 

To the first point. You must have never played a First Person Shooter.

 

To the next point. How is this different from leveling? A company can only put out so much content. I would rather see a very short "leveling" process, with much more max level content, but you are going to devour the content before a company reasonably expected to put more in, that's just the unfortunate truth. It's not one dude; it's a large team of artists and coders that must put these things together. In short, your expectations are unrealistic.

[Pigeye]

End game is whatever's left to do when you've hit the level cap, and for some when they've burned through all the content too - you know, like social activities.

 

For me it's life after grind, not more grind - but you have to give concessions, because there are players who enjoy the grind; live for it even! Point is, it's not your or my game, it's everybody's game, and it's impossible to please everyone with one shoe size.

 

I think this is why sandbox games have so much more longevity, but even that's a strain, because a decent proportion of players just like the idea of completing the game and moving on. Of course, that's not what MMO publishers want to hear

 

I think your shift key's broken btw ;-)

Edited January 1, 2012 by Pigeye

[lucazzy]

The OP is absolutely right about this. However for some reason in MMOs people feel the need to do stuff when they reach the level cap. People pay subscription fees for the endgame, and the developers of the MMO have to constantly add more to the endgame. Endgame endgame endgame.

 

As I type this I am level 32. By the end of January (most likely) I will have reached level 50 for my first character. Then what am I going to do? Yes, you guessed it. Endgame. I'm going to repeat all of the Flashpoints (+ the new one they will add with the content patch in a couple of weeks) and do both Operations. Then what? Well...

[Ainotna]

I equate "leveling" to the first 18-25 years (respectively) of life in which you are preparing yourself for the reality of adulthood. Endgame is therefore like adulthood in which you get to spend the next 50 years doing the same repetitive BS until you die. Edited January 1, 2012 by Ainotna

[LogunOne]

End Game as it is today is the ruination of the MMO Genre. In a game like SWTOR that gives you an unprecedented high quality of game play and grouping opportunities with Heroic Zones and mid level flashpoints, to see so many come on here and say “I’m 50 now what” just tells me there not here for a real RPG experience.

 

This idea of the only game that matters is what happens after level cap has to go away, ultimately this Skinner Box (

) game mechanics will be the ruination of this genre … thank you for that Blizzard.

 

The leveling game just seems to be the strawberry jam used to hide that little bitter pill of repetitive Skinner Box (tap a lever get a treat) game play and this drive it programs into players will make all efforts at making a higher quality leveling experience lost to them.

[Pigeye]

In short, your expectations are unrealistic.

 

It seems to be the same with most MMOs doesn't it.

 

Wasn't like this with Everquest 1. Took people so long to reach the level cap they had time to push out loads of expanded content. Games are way too easy, but that's how people want them these days... it's a diluted genre.

[Oneiros_IV]

Endgame doesn't means "repeating same thing over and over" it might mean bashing your head with your baddie guild on some boss for weeks trying new aproaches and all that kind of stuff.

[Enako]

I equate "leveling" to the first 18-25 years (respectively) of life in which you are preparing yourself for the reality of adulthood. Endgame is therefore like adulthood in which you get to spend the next 50 years doing the same repetitive BS until you die.

 

quite !

 

and indeed, therefore, the first 18-25 years of one's life SHOULD be fun too. not some 5-6 year period in between 35-45.

 

we may not be able to make this in real life. but, there is no reason that games, a medium which we can shape as people, should follow the same example. there is no point.

 

End Game as it is today is the ruination of the MMO Genre. In a game like SWTOR that gives you an unprecedented high quality of game play and grouping opportunities with Heroic Zones and mid level flashpoints, to see so many come on here and say “I’m 50 now what” just tells me there not here for a real RPG experience.

.

 

i totally agree.

[Rikalonius]

So Shady says,

 

I think you completely forgot to factor in realistic expectations for Content Development, from a Design Team with the aptitude, funding, and size of SWTOR's

 

Then Enako responds,

 

it is quite odd to see you not trolling to persuade people how bad swtor is, today. yesterday you persuaded me four times to cancel my account and go back to wow.

 

So Rik says, what the heck does that have to do with the point? It took 4 years to craft this game. What to you want them to do, release 10 levels of content every three months. We are 17 days from Early access and the amount of 50s is piling up. What would they do after 10 levels? They'd sit around waiting for new content.

 

Now, I personally believe there needs to be alternatives to raiding, but that often only means PVP. You can do collection quests, but until they have player housing to decorate with your collections, which It hink they should have, that won't work either.

 

Even single player games get burned through pretty fast, then what? Buy another single player game $60 and burn through that.

[Ainotna]

quite !

 

and indeed, therefore, the first 18-25 years of one's life SHOULD be fun too. not some 5-6 year period in between 35-45.

 

we may not be able to make this in real life. but, there is no reason that games, a medium which we can shape as people, should follow the same example. there is no point.

 

 

I've been having tons of fun leveling. The most fun I've ever had leveling.

[Enako]

So Shady says,

 

 

 

Then Enako responds,

 

 

 

So Rik says, what the heck does that have to do with the point?

 

and enako says, 'rik, that had to do with events that transpired threads that were posted yesterday'. in which shady was trying to persuade us all that swtor is a bad game. yesterday's events, today's surprise.

 

It took 4 years to craft this game. What to you want them to do, release 10 levels of content every three months.

 

works - if they do not spend inordinate amounts of resources on 'endgame' trying to satisfy the below :

 

We are 17 days from Early access and the amount of 50s is piling up. What would they do after 10 levels? They'd sit around waiting for new content.

 

there is no way in hell to satisfy this segment. these are not even raiders, endgamers - these are achievers. nomatter what you do, these will be there first, and get bored. because they play for achievement. there is no way you can hold these people in - the only way to hold these people in would be through an excessive, painful grind and a repetitive, punishing 'endgame'. and that would drive everyone else out.

 

this segment jumps ship at the point they achieve something. they come back ,when there is more to achieve in the game they left. they jump ship every 3-4 months.

 

no sane game development house focuses on these. only, niche ones. or, alternatively, games which create their own impossible grind leveling, like eve. but these do not prefer eve due to the fact that there is no potential, defined and clear achievement in that game.

 

Now, I personally believe there needs to be alternatives to raiding, but that often only means PVP. You can do collection quests, but until they have player housing to decorate with your collections, which It hink they should have, that won't work either.

 

totally leaving the fact that there would be no problem for bringing in new content in proper speed once you have given up in trying to satisfy the early rusher/achiever segment, lets see what else is possible :

 

a space game in which you do trading, smuggling, and engage in various activities ? even, space stations in which guilds can set up and run ?

 

special zones/worlds in which players engage in manufacturing and trade ? and build things ?

 

player houses in separate instances ? (coruscant would be spectacular)

 

these are a few examples. other games do these successfully. lotro is one. and, stuff in space does not take considerable server resources due to there being no need for a landscape.

 

but im sure you can come up with your own propositions. the key is freeing the mind from the forced conditioning wow/everquest has impressed upon mmorpg landscape.

 

Even single player games get burned through pretty fast, then what? Buy another single player game $60 and burn through that.

 

yet, kotor 1 and 2 makes one play them 3-4 times more without getting bored, for example. that is because the entirety of the game is entertaining - not just the closing 1/10 of the game.