Rebuff Slicing - A plea from a non-slicer

[Neblin]

Answer is plain and simple, devs want you grind 24/7. You must have 2 jobs, day time and in game, it is unthinkable have it other way around.

But they don't realize that peoples are already sick of grinding form other games.

 

And what you mean buy breaking game? Slicer gets money from slicing and gives good price to crafter. Or perhaps you want also limit how much crafter can ask, because that is also game breaking?

 

You're missing the point of my post.

 

A lot of people arguing against the Slicing nerf mention that nerfing Slicing destroy's the game entire economy, meaning that Slicing alone supports the economy.

 

Imagine for a minute that Bioware nerfed Operatives, and that by doing so the entire PvE system was broken because nobody could do dungeons or raids anymore. That would mean that Operatives were clearly overpowered, but also that other classes clearly need a buff. In that particular case, rebuffing Operatives wouldn't be the answer; you'd have to re-balance the game (encounters, other classes) accordingly.

 

In the current case, we're facing the same situation. People say that since Slicing got nerfed, nobody has the currency to buy anything. The solution to that isn't rebuffing Slicing to make it the only possible way to substain the game's economy. The solution is looking at other income sources in the game and buffing them accordingly.

 

If quests yielded more credits, if mobs dropped more credit, if repairs, skills and mounts would cost a bit less, everyone would have more currency. Questing and killing mobs for a reasonable amount of time while receiving a reasonable income isn't grinding, it's playing the game. I'm not saying we should make Slicing obsolete, I'm saying it should be in line with other professions. You can fix an economy without breaking gameplay balance.

[pyziroki]

I'm coming to a feeling that we've had enough. We need to sign a petition about slicing to finally let BW know that we want it back to where it was!

[ezrafetch]

Slicing was creating a economic disparity between "slicers" and "non-slicers". Slicers should not have sole control over the market/buying power in game. This alone is why it needed a nerf. Was the nerfed too much? Maybe, but that does not mean in a couple months once the economy is stablized that it will not get a buff. Now is not the time though.

 

Patently false. Once the non-Slicers start putting up their mats, they'll get paid for their mats. Since there was more money around with Slicers, their mats were going to sell for higher prices. The money would have made it into non-Slicer's hands once the economy had settled. The game wasn't even out for two weeks before they nerfed Slicing: the market was not even well-formed when they nerfhammered Slicing, which was foolish. No one had started to put enough mats out onto the market to completely supply it, which is why everyone was keeping credits in their pocket, which led to everyone keeping credits and storing them until they could spend them on stuff, whether it was twink gear or, you know, crafting materials. Now they've just slammed the market by withdrawing a ton of credits from the market. Think of it as akin to a massive credit crunch or the Federal Reserve requiring everyone to buy bonds to pull back the money supply by at least 30%. The results wouldn't be pretty in either real-life case, and we're seeing it in TOR now.

 

Did Slicing need a nerf? Sure, but changing it from an over-profitable activity to a sure-loss activity in one swift move was a terrible idea. It needed to be a smaller change or something spread out over a few months. It was foolhardy to shrink the money supply so quickly, especially when a market is new. A new market does need some money supply to get started, and TOR's starving for it right now.

[Cormanthor]

I'm coming to a feeling that we've had enough. We need to sign a petition about slicing to finally let BW know that we want it back to where it was!

 

No we don't.

[DarkSeverance]

Again agree, and again a point of 2025 for a mission price with an out come of 1970 for reward is not a balance move. more like a bug. Hey Mako, go get us some coin, heres 2k try to double it.

Except they don't have to do missions to make money. Just farm a route of slice items on planets... has no one done node farming in WoW before. They make tons with a very short amount of time and effort.

[Chaffery]

@Neblin

Thank you for long post but I will give you short answer.

Killing mobs and looting grey junk is exactly what is considered to grind fest. Otherwise know as trash farming. Not many are willing to do it any more. Pointless copy forever grinding, games witch have too much grind tend to die.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Chaffery

[Proppa]

They need to ban any Slicing discussions from now on. It's ridiculous. Has been out for around 2 weeks and people already had enough credits to afford everything they needed by slicing. Where as non-slicers had little money for anything.

 

I am 400 Synthweaving, 400 Underworld Trading and 400 Archaeology, I am now just about breaking even at level 45 from leveling my skills up. In otherwords, I've never passed the 100k mark. Yet players who took Slicing, were able to make money to buy EVERYTHING they need. So it gives those who took an easy ability far more than those who didn't. If it's fair that slicing gave you everything easily, then fair enough. But the fact that all other crafts/gathering skills often left skint (I still have yet to buy my advanced speeder skill and 1 of my class abilities).

[Chaffery]

They need to ban any Slicing discussions from now on. It's ridiculous. Has been out for around 2 weeks and people already had enough credits to afford everything they needed by slicing. Where as non-slicers had little money for anything.

 

I am 400 Synthweaving, 400 Underworld Trading and 400 Archaeology, I am now just about breaking even at level 45 from leveling my skills up. In otherwords, I've never passed the 100k mark. Yet players who took Slicing, were able to make money to buy EVERYTHING they need. So it gives those who took an easy ability far more than those who didn't. If it's fair that slicing gave you everything easily, then fair enough. But the fact that all other crafts/gathering skills often left skint (I still have yet to buy my advanced speeder skill and 1 of my class abilities).

Was it? You just jelly. Slicing missions take long time, nodes are still bugged. To get from one working node to another you actually have run around a lot. You have kill crap load of trash mobs because way too many slicing nodes are camped buy trash packs.

Actually slicing was and is hard work, now it is pretty much pointless after summing up everything what I just said.

[Cormanthor]

Patently false. Once the non-Slicers start putting up their mats, they'll get paid for their mats. Since there was more money around with Slicers, their mats were going to sell for higher prices. The money would have made it into non-Slicer's hands once the economy had settled. The game wasn't even out for two weeks before they nerfed Slicing: the market was not even well-formed when they nerfhammered Slicing, which was foolish. No one had started to put enough mats out onto the market to completely supply it, which is why everyone was keeping credits in their pocket, which led to everyone keeping credits and storing them until they could spend them on stuff, whether it was twink gear or, you know, crafting materials. Now they've just slammed the market by withdrawing a ton of credits from the market. Think of it as akin to a massive credit crunch or the Federal Reserve requiring everyone to buy bonds to pull back the money supply by at least 30%. The results wouldn't be pretty in either real-life case, and we're seeing it in TOR now.

 

Did Slicing need a nerf? Sure, but changing it from an over-profitable activity to a sure-loss activity in one swift move was a terrible idea. It needed to be a smaller change or something spread out over a few months. It was foolhardy to shrink the money supply so quickly, especially when a market is new. A new market does need some money supply to get started, and TOR's starving for it right now.

 

Slicers had control over the market. End of story. This is wrong. The second issue was that it made "gold" farming stupidly easy which also led to devaluing money. In the short term it may all look good but what was really happening is a Diablo economy where gold meant nothing at all.

[pyziroki]

They need to ban any Slicing discussions from now on. It's ridiculous. Has been out for around 2 weeks and people already had enough credits to afford everything they needed by slicing. Where as non-slicers had little money for anything.

 

I am 400 Synthweaving, 400 Underworld Trading and 400 Archaeology, I am now just about breaking even at level 45 from leveling my skills up. In otherwords, I've never passed the 100k mark. Yet players who took Slicing, were able to make money to buy EVERYTHING they need. So it gives those who took an easy ability far more than those who didn't. If it's fair that slicing gave you everything easily, then fair enough. But the fact that all other crafts/gathering skills often left skint (I still have yet to buy my advanced speeder skill and 1 of my class abilities).

 

Because of such greedy jealous people BW had to nerf slicng. You are unhappy that nobody gives u money for ur crewskills. Well guess what since u and others like you managed to get rid of slicng you will earn even less. Good job.

[Pansophist]

Actually, if he had posted and played the GTN, he would have had a LOT of money.

 

Pre-nerf, I knew more people who made a lot more money using the GTN than slicers did..

 

Slicing was for the casual players. It was for the players who did NOT want to grind 24/7. It was for the players who were not trying to get to 50 in less than a week. It was for the players who did not want to continuously play the GTN.

 

These were the players buying items off the GTN. For me, buying a level 25 mod off the GTN is stupid, I'll be out-leveling it in less than a few hours. For a casual player...why not? They may want to goof around, RP with some friends, etc.

 

And for those who say you have to 'work' in order to pay your repair bills and leveling costs, shame on you. You're forcing your beliefs of how a game should be played onto others. A game is meant for fun. There are many, MANY different ways of achieving that goal.

 

For those who say gather nodes. Why? I make more money doing space runs than I did before slicing was nerfed. If I'm going to spend the time to run around gathering nodes (which were nerfed also, by the way), why wouldn't I just go do space missions?

Edited December 31, 2011 by Pansophist

[DarkSeverance]

The real problem with Slicing was that it makes credits without costing any money to do. You don't have to send your slicer on missions to make money, just farm the nodes. Instant money.

 

Crafters and gatherers can farm nodes as well. However they have to either sell the mats or craft them into items and sell them to make money. It took time to farm, time to create and then time to sell.

 

Simply put, Slicing is meant for those not crafting to make money. It makes money without hardly any effort.

[Pansophist]

The real problem with Slicing was that it makes credits without costing any money to do. You don't have to send your slicer on missions to make money, just farm the nodes. Instant money.

 

Crafters and gatherers can farm nodes as well. However they have to either sell the mats or craft them into items and sell them to make money. It took time to farm, time to create and then time to sell.

 

Simply put, Slicing is meant for those not crafting to make money. It makes money without hardly any effort.

 

I would suggest you read through this thread:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=98429

 

This topic has been covered a plethora of times, and countered as many or more ways.

[DarkSeverance]

I would suggest you read through this thread:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=98429

 

This topic has been covered a plethora of times, and countered as many or more ways.

Except it doesn't, everyone glazes it over or doesn't actually pay attention. Keep in mind I have 3 Slicers and still profit than any of my other characters.

 

They repeat the same 2 main points over and over. They either talk about losing money on sending slicers on missions. I'm not.

 

Or they talk about the ones that bring up farming nodes, say it is faster and faster to farm mobs. Except everyone can farm mobs. Farming mods and nodes produces more than the average player with little effort. Or if you have a stealth class then you don't really need to fight and just farm.

 

All the slicers complaining are still trying to the same ways to get money through slicing they did before the nerf. Which even as a Slicer I say it needed it. You have to do it different ways to make it effective. My slicers still fund my other characters, still having 20-30k more than my other crafters or my wife's.

[Iamaborat]

Obviously this nerf had effected the GTN. I've noticed it on my server as well. TONS of materials were posted on the GTN (scavenging/archaeology is what I looked at). I've been gathering materials through nodes while doing missions and I've gotta say that a big portion of my credits were made from selling those materials on the GTN.

 

I have 800K credits at level 34 and I got slicing at level 10. Slicing was definitely OP. I didn't notice it was until I had 200K at level 24. I could afford my speeder training FIVE times before level 25. I asked how much credits everyone had in the general chat and NONE of them had over 100K. I knew how slicing worked (bountiful/rich yields) and how simple it was to get a lot of credits.

 

I stopped getting credits from slicing at 600K because I stopped using it due to the nerf. I got after a couple hours of playing, for two days, 200K+ from gathering slicing nodes, selling materials and quest rewards.

 

Basically, I don't need slicing to make a ton of credits. I can just sell materials on the GTN which always sell and gather slicing nodes.

[Msbungle]

So it gives those who took an easy ability far more than those who didn't. If it's fair that slicing gave you everything easily, then fair enough. But the fact that all other crafts/gathering skills often left skint (I still have yet to buy my advanced speeder skill and 1 of my class abilities).

 

If you had the option to choose slicing, then it was fair. If it people got money from slicing easily because they were offered the skill and you weren't, then that would be unfair. You had the same opportunity. Quit blaming your choices on other members of the community.

 

And honestly? That is all I see there. That you CHOSE to do something you knew would not be profitable. That was your decision and one BW and the rest of the community did not force you or anyone else to take!

[Pansophist]

Problem is, a lot of these players didn't know about slicing. That's where the problem comes in.

 

Us Beta players knew how expensive 35-50 is, so we picked up slicing. Sure, most of us dropped it at 50 because there are much better ways to spend a crew profession (to make money or to craft, either way), but that is beside the point.

 

Enter the new players...they pick what sounds cool. Then they either:

a) become broke

b) hear other new players gloating about 200k credits

 

In either scenario, likely both, these players become upset they are having to 'grind' for money while slicers do not. All they had to do was 'click a button.'

 

They didn't realize that 200k credits is roughly 4 repair bills at level 50. They just realized that someone had something they didn't, and they became upset.

 

Enter the PR disaster followed by the nerfbat. Followed by a lot of threads filled valid points, followed by trolls who would rather spend time on a forum than make it past level 30. Followed by a lot of the educated players not bothering to argue with less educated trolls who refuse to understand simple concepts.

 

And that, my good friends, is why you see so much anti-slicing talk.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Pansophist

[JamieKirby]

Obviously this nerf had effected the GTN. I've noticed it on my server as well. TONS of materials were posted on the GTN (scavenging/archaeology is what I looked at). I've been gathering materials through nodes while doing missions and I've gotta say that a big portion of my credits were made from selling those materials on the GTN.

 

I have 800K credits at level 34 and I got slicing at level 10. Slicing was definitely OP. I didn't notice it was until I had 200K at level 24. I could afford my speeder training FIVE times before level 25. I asked how much credits everyone had in the general chat and NONE of them had over 100K. I knew how slicing worked (bountiful/rich yields) and how simple it was to get a lot of credits.

 

I stopped getting credits from slicing at 600K because I stopped using it due to the nerf. I got after a couple hours of playing, for two days, 200K+ from gathering slicing nodes, selling materials and quest rewards.

 

Basically, I don't need slicing to make a ton of credits. I can just sell materials on the GTN which always sell and gather slicing nodes.

 

Must be a server specific then, because my crafting materials NEVER sell, no matter the grade, if its not being sold at 200cr per 99 units of an item, then it won't sell at all and its just best vendor it.

 

When i first started playing, i took scavenging, bio-analysis and archeology and planned to sell the materials for credits on the GTN, jsut like i did on wow with mining and skinning, but sadly no one was buying at all, the only time it sold was when i put them on the GTN for 200cr per stack of 99 and the effort that went into getting all of them, only to make a mere 200cr, it put me off.

 

Thats when i went to slicing, i never picked the rich or bountiful, i just went with abundant or moderate, i didn't want loads and loads of credits rub in peoples' faces like most do, i just wanted JUST enough to afford upgrades when needed and the skills, nothing more, but can't do that now.

[Timayus]

LOL... Very valid point. If devs want turn this game in to grind fest, plenty F2P already around.

Why would peoples pay that they could grind, if they could do it for free in F2P game?

 

Also, to both of you, I did not say a grind everyone seems to think that a harder game means grind, which is not true, a harder game, jsut means you wont hit cap in a week, you cant solo 2 man heroics, 2 man four man heroics there is a difference, a lot of people like a challenge, but since the causal boom there is no challenge but pvp and endgame and even then eventually both of those aren't.

[VioletZero]

Problem is, a lot of these players didn't know about slicing. That's where the problem comes in.

 

Us Beta players knew how expensive 35-50 is, so we picked up slicing. Sure, most of us dropped it at 50 because there are much better ways to spend a crew profession (to make money or to craft, either way), but that is beside the point.

 

Enter the new players...they pick what sounds cool. Then they either:

a) become broke

b) hear other new players gloating about 200k credits

 

In either scenario, likely both, these players become upset they are having to 'grind' for money while slicers do not. All they had to do was 'click a button.'

 

They didn't realize that 200k credits is roughly 4 repair bills at level 50. They just realized that someone had something they didn't, and they became upset.

 

Enter the PR disaster followed by the nerfbat. Followed by a lot of threads filled valid points, followed by trolls who would rather spend time on a forum than make it past level 30. Followed by a lot of the educated players not bothering to argue with less educated trolls who refuse to understand simple concepts.

 

And that, my good friends, is why you see so much anti-slicing talk.

 

Are you guys seriously just going to call everyone who said that Slicing was broken jealous?

 

Is that the best way you can justify your pathetic money generators?

 

I just find it hilarious how you guys can't come up with any reasons why Slicing is bad without sounding like a bunch of children asking for handouts instead of actually working for your success.

 

So instead, you turn to a fallacious ad hominem arguments.

Edited December 31, 2011 by VioletZero

[Luxora]

I agree with the OP. But then, I also predicted this would happen the moment they nerfed Slicing, a stupid kneejerk reaction to appease the childish whiners who don't understand a thing about economy.

 

The prices of the things I try to sell on the GTN has been dropping -- today, I had to relist an item and lower the price by about 20k to remain competitive with other listings, which I've noticed are not selling. And for the first time, my mailbox has several items returned unsold, when they used to sell like hotcakes (when they were more expensive, no less.)

 

It's all because the economy has less money to spend to buy what we craft; Slicers were the ones bringing in the extra credits and felt like they had enough that they could actually buy things on the GTN. Most other people are saving for their speeder training and expensive skill training, and don't have such a huge buffer for luxury expenses.

 

And now so much unsold crafted gear is piling up, and the prices are plummeting. This means less money earned for the people who sank a lot into grinding up their professions. Considering the cost of gathering mats and how much I had to sink into grinding up to 400, I was hoping I'd be able to make a lot of that back sooner than later. As it is, level 50 dailies/questing is still far more profitable than my own crafting profession, which is silly.

 

That aside, I also think it's wrong to have a profession that costs more than it brings in, and yet produces no real solid "gathering mat." Every time I send out my companions, while it may not always be the precise material I was looking for, they're definitely coming back with something that I can use, or if not, sell on the GTN. Slicers on the other hand were only occasionally rewarded with schematics, Mission items and so forth, none of which I'd say are amazingly valuable, you can acquire pretty much all of the schematics in a short amount of time. They weren't guaranteed to get crafting mats they could then use to produce something and slap it on the GTN.

 

I'll admit it did bother me that they could so easily pull in 200k~ without much effort, when I had to deal with the hassle of sending companions out and hope they bring back the right kind of mats (especially the annoying epic ones), then spend time crafting it, hope it procs an Augment slot, and then go list it and compete with other similar crafters' prices. I'd almost say they did make more money, and more easily -- I am not denying that Bioware should have looked at Slicing.

 

But they went far overboard with this, did not make the situation better for anyone, and it doesn't seem like they knew what else they would mess up as a result.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Luxora

[Racheakt]

As a general rule with any new mmo i play, i do triple gathering and sell all mats until the preferd/best crafting skill presents itself in ingame.

 

In this game it is the skill that makes med packs, followed by cyber. (IMHO)

 

The problem was never slicing, it was the way game wealth was created, destroyed, and transferred.

 

Created wealth is credits that are generated by the game engine and given to the players. This was slicing, mob credits, quest rewards.

 

Destroyed wealth is when players relinquish credits to the game engine. This is repair bills, crew missions, training, buying from a vendor, and market fees.

 

Wealth transfer is when credits transfer from one player to another. The MAIN tool for that is the GTN.

 

The ratio of to the player from general leveling is like 1.1 (money from quests/mobs is slightly better than cost of leveling). If that same player takes a trade skill it drops to like .8 (the income no longer covers the cost of leveling)

 

There are some issues that BW needs to address, the GTN is a pain to use making wealth transfer annoying -- but not that hard.

 

Commendation vendors give mods and orange gear better or equal to what crafters can make and sell -- for tokens -- letting the player save the valuable credits for leveling up.

 

Do we need a fix? I think so. But do we need it now? dunno. the majority of the players are still in their mid 30s, maybe things will balance out once everyone is max level, max crafting skills.

 

Just one guys opinion.

[Pansophist]

Are you guys seriously just going to call everyone who said that Slicing was broken jealous?

 

Is that the best way you can justify your pathetic money generators?

 

I just find it hilarious how you guys can't come up with any reasons why Slicing is bad without sounding like a bunch of children asking for handouts instead of actually working for your success.

 

So instead, you turn to a fallacious ad hominem arguments.

 

Have you hit 50 yet? Or been too busy trying to prevent Biochem from getting nerfed, since that is your profession. It'd be a shame for that to happen, I'd hate to see you trying to defend arguments against trolls.

 

And no, I'm not calling out 'everyone' and saying they are jealous. Merely using the powers of observation from general chat pre-nerf. It was full of e-peen contests about slicing credits. I'm sure you remember, if you were there?

 

And again, you use the same logic that everyone should play an MMO the same way you play it, a farmfest. Please remember, as I've reminded you before, that not everyone enjoys grinding to pay their bills. But, we've had this discussion before, haven't we? I can pull up the links if you want to remind yourself of them.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Pansophist

[VioletZero]

Have you hit 50 yet? Or been too busy trying to prevent Biochem from getting nerfed, since that is your profession. It'd be a shame for that to happen, I'd hate to see you trying to defend arguments against trolls.

 

And no, I'm not calling out 'everyone' and saying they are jealous. Merely using the powers of observation from general chat pre-nerf. It was full of e-peen contests about slicing credits. I'm sure you remember, if you were there?

 

And again, you use the same logic that everyone should play an MMO the same way you play it, a farmfest. Please remember, as I've reminded you before, that not everyone enjoys grinding to pay their bills. But, we've had this discussion before, haven't we? I can pull up the links if you want to remind yourself of them.

 

Funny, if you actually read that thread then you would have realized that it actually had little to do with Biochem itself but rather the sad state of crafting today.

 

Biochem was really just talked about as an example of how and why the crafting skill works.

 

So either you didn't read it or you read what you want to read to make your opposition look as pathetic as possible.

Edited December 31, 2011 by VioletZero

[CtJackHarkness]

The real problem here is stupidity. People didn't realize Splicing was a plague not an "economy booster" it was causing massive inflation and essentially devaluing money or the incentive for money. More MODERATE money across many people is fine. 1 lvl 15 having 200K+ is NOT with zero effort.

 

The forums are rampant with ex-splicer stupidity or "make more moneyists". People say there is no 'incentive' all the other skills 'suck' Biochem is the ONLY decent one because it has 'purple reusables' (NOT TRUE FYI more skills do with critical builds), and according to most of their common stupidity: 'I can't make money anymore!'

 

Honestly: BS. You people are all just PO'd you used a bad development glitch and are now pissed off. FYI I myself am STILL splicing. Do I make "100k/hour" NO. These skills are not intended for that. They are intended for self-use, or marginal profit....not "100k/hour."

 

The problem of this massive stupidity is people just "want the skill that makes the best money." They do not factor in their lapse of any intelligence. Biochem does not need a nerf, other skills are NOT useless, and finally Splicing does not print money and is still beneficial for those who cannot make its items from scratch, just like rare critical crystals from Artifice are useful for people who are not willing to space-hunt for them and the same applies to Synthweaving, Cybertech, and every other skill YOU DO NOT HAVE out of 1 GATHERING skill.

 

Now please....for the sake of preventing yourselves from looking more like oblivious trolls, stop posting. Do something productive. If you weren't on here complaining about splicing, you'd actually do something.

Edited December 31, 2011 by CtJackHarkness