PvP is such a slog for most players who don't PvP all the time solution suggestions inside.

[Argomemnon]

After doing what I could and ending week with 56 losses and 6 wins I finally got 4 weekly objectives done.  So somewhere close to every 11 games 1 get a win. Does anyone think a less than 10% chance to win a match is fun honestly? I play video games to have fun not get beat down majority of the time. Life already does that, video games are supposed to be a fun escape from reality. Not a giant puch in the face to bring you back to reality.

[InsaneSove]

1 hour ago, Wulfurkin said:

Pvp is more like a minigame, its even stated ingame as a 'combat simulation' which tells me the devs see it as a training place to get better at the game in general and not as a focus or something to be treated as endgame content.

PvP didn't use to be referred to as a 'combat simulation'; that phrase was added when mixed queues were introduced; it used to be Rep vs Imp, with each battle having an in-game explanation of why it was taking place. In a way, it was an extension of the overall story that required fighting other players.

Before the game was drastically streamlined, the vanilla (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, mainly) levelling experience was used to get better at the game in general and would help teach you the basics of the game, such as interrupt (which is rarely used these days, it seems). Now that most mechanics have been stripped/reduced and the companions have been made into a one-man army, there's no need to learn anything to progress through the game, affecting all endgame content and thus worsening the player experience in endgame PvP/PvE.

1 hour ago, Wulfurkin said:

I do think actually getting better at pvp should be rewarded but not at the cost of participation rewards, especially considering the poor state of the q which leaves the majority of players ineffective during the time they are in matches.

If anything, the participation rewards (especially the access to ranked replicas) contradict the need to improve at PvP in this game, as there's no real reason to win to get them. As others have pointed out, there are a lot of players in the queue who aren't playing cause they enjoy PvP; they are playing just for the rewards, which only makes the quality of the queue itself worse as most will either resort to AFK'ing or giving up as soon as a tiny bit of pressure is applied. Before this and referring to the previous expansions above, where cosmetic/ crafting rewards weren't as regularly available or given, players would actively fight back and attempt to improve to win matches, increasing the level of competition and the overall quality of the queue.

1 hour ago, Wulfurkin said:

What i think is most important for anyone on this forums is the realisation that pve and pvp are not on equal footing, never have been and never will be. The game isnt designed this way and its best to accept that. 

If this means what I think it means, you'd struggle to find anyone at any time who thought BioWare/ BroadSword considered PvP and PvE to be on the same footing. BioWare/ BroadSword barely understand the workings of their own PvE content and why it worked, so they had no chance of understanding how the old PvP dynamics worked or why people enjoyed it, which is probably why they threw a battle pass at it and thought that would be good enough.

[Darkestmonty]

32 minutes ago, InsaneSove said:

If anything, the participation rewards (especially the access to ranked replicas) contradict the need to improve at PvP in this game, as there's no real reason to win to get them. As others have pointed out, there are a lot of players in the queue who aren't playing cause they enjoy PvP; they are playing just for the rewards, which only makes the quality of the queue itself worse as most will either resort to AFK'ing or giving up as soon as a tiny bit of pressure is applied. Before this and referring to the previous expansions above, where cosmetic/ crafting rewards weren't as regularly available or given, players would actively fight back and attempt to improve to win matches, increasing the level of competition and the overall quality of the queue.

 

I was around when this game first came out and there was no penalty for leaving PvP matches. back then as soon as one team gained the slightest advantage half the other team would quit and requeue. This didn't help when the replacements came in, saw the game already in progress and they were on the losing team, they also left which turned into a never ending rotation of players on the losing team.

Wanting to quit a losing team was always the attitude of players.

What has made it worse is the lack of vote kick. As soon as vote kick was removed people brazenly just AFKed anywhere they could. At first people started trying to hide around the map where their team mates couldn't easily notice them then they realized there was nothing they could do and openly stealthed AFKed anywhere or refused to do more than trash talk their team.

Don't make it sound like quitting a losing game is something new because "players are only here for cosmetics". The only thing that has changed about giving up on a losing team is players can now AFK without any form of punishment because there is no vote kick system.

And once you notice your team is behind and there are one or two AFKers, no point in even fighting.

Edited April 3 by Darkestmonty

[DeannaVoyager]

3 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

Swtor is all pve content, its numerous raids and large story will have players engaged with the ai for most of the time they play this game.

Large story content, yes
Numerous raids, no

There are more pvp maps than operations in the game.

[Wulfurkin]

1 hour ago, InsaneSove said:

PvP didn't use to be referred to as a 'combat simulation'; that phrase was added when mixed queues were introduced; it used to be Rep vs Imp, with each battle having an in-game explanation of why it was taking place. In a way, it was an extension of the overall story that required fighting other players.

Before the game was drastically streamlined, the vanilla (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, mainly) levelling experience was used to get better at the game in general and would help teach you the basics of the game, such as interrupt (which is rarely used these days, it seems). Now that most mechanics have been stripped/reduced and the companions have been made into a one-man army, there's no need to learn anything to progress through the game, affecting all endgame content and thus worsening the player experience in endgame PvP/PvE.

If anything, the participation rewards (especially the access to ranked replicas) contradict the need to improve at PvP in this game, as there's no real reason to win to get them. As others have pointed out, there are a lot of players in the queue who aren't playing cause they enjoy PvP; they are playing just for the rewards, which only makes the quality of the queue itself worse as most will either resort to AFK'ing or giving up as soon as a tiny bit of pressure is applied. Before this and referring to the previous expansions above, where cosmetic/ crafting rewards weren't as regularly available or given, players would actively fight back and attempt to improve to win matches, increasing the level of competition and the overall quality of the queue.

If this means what I think it means, you'd struggle to find anyone at any time who thought BioWare/ BroadSword considered PvP and PvE to be on the same footing. BioWare/ BroadSword barely understand the workings of their own PvE content and why it worked, so they had no chance of understanding how the old PvP dynamics worked or why people enjoyed it, which is probably why they threw a battle pass at it and thought that would be good enough.

Interrupt is still used in plenty of pve raids, the harder content sometimes requires it to be able to beat certain mechanics. I do agree the overall game is a bit too easy, its practically impossible to die anymore as all companions can fill every role at any time and do so with perfect precision. As for the rewards i was thinking something akin to achievements for reaching a certain win rate, a certain k/d ration or even the amount of average objective points. These rewards could be personal grants separate from the season track, possibly through the legacy panel. I do think its an achievement to play well in pvp matches, so why not reward that directly. If its done that way it wont contradict the value of participation as it wont have any affect on your overall progression through the season, its just that little extra you get for playing well. 

[septru]

3 hours ago, Argomemnon said:

After doing what I could and ending week with 56 losses and 6 wins I finally got 4 weekly objectives done.

 

Is no one else going to comment on this? 🤣

[Samcuu]

2 hours ago, septru said:

 

Is no one else going to comment on this? 🤣

I already tried to give him some tips on how to improve his experience and I was ignored. So in my mind that means he just wants the rewards handed to him with even less effort required than what the devs have already offered...

I finished the 1k cap on the pvp season and like 3 weeklies last night. Went 12 - 4 in wzs I think and like 6 - 0 in arenas queueing as a tank with a healer and we had 1 dps grouped with us half the time. Faced plenty of 5 - 6 man farming premades as well. I think ppl do want to win and make it easier to get through the season but that means u actually have to work a bit to improve your game or make friends and coordinate in voice. Seems a lot of players are allergic to that. 

Edited April 3 by Samcuu

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, Samcuu said:

I already tried to give him some tips on how to improve his experience and I was ignored. So in my mind that means he just wants the rewards handed to him with even less effort required than what the devs have already offered...

I finished the 1k cap on the pvp season and like 3 weeklies last night. Went 12 - 4 in wzs I think and like 6 - 0 in arenas queueing as a tank with a healer and we had 1 dps grouped with us half the time. Faced plenty of 5 - 6 man farming premades as well. I think ppl do want to win and make it easier to get through the season but that means u actually have to work a bit to improve your game or make friends and coordinate in voice. Seems a lot of players are allergic to that. 

or this is an example why premades break pvp balance against groups of solo players.

[Samcuu]

35 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

or this is an example why premades break pvp balance against groups of solo players.

Conveniently ignore that we were fighting other big premades pretty much all night. 

[Darkestmonty]

7 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Conveniently ignore that we were fighting other big premades pretty much all night. 

you mean the farming premades who were more conerned with DPS and kills than objectives or other premades who were objective driven to win?

If you were facing a lot of premades then I'm sure there shouldn't be an issue if premades had their own queue and solo had their own queue.

Edited April 3 by Darkestmonty

[septru]

2 hours ago, Samcuu said:

I already tried to give him some tips on how to improve his experience and I was ignored. So in my mind that means he just wants the rewards handed to him with even less effort required than what the devs have already offered...

 

You need to be doing a lot more than just ignoring tips to have a 10% winrate. 🤣 I've seen notorious throwers like Moophy come out of solo ranked with a higher winrate than 10%. 

 

2 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Went 6 - 0 in arenas queueing as a tank with a healer

Do premades on SS que arenas? On SF most of the premades only que warzones, which can get quite boring. 

Edited April 3 by septru

[septru]

8 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

If you were facing a lot of premades then I'm sure there shouldn't be an issue if premades had their own queue and solo had their own queue.

Gotta love the forums. Somehow it always comes back to premade QQ. 🤣

[Darkestmonty]

9 minutes ago, septru said:

Gotta love the forums. Somehow it always comes back to premade QQ. 🤣

or people stating that premades aren't that much of a problem, then turning around and saying 'yeah but my premade wins 12/4 games and we were fighting other big premades pretty much all night."

  

27 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Conveniently ignore that we were fighting other big premades pretty much all night.

 

If premades were fighting other big premades all night long, then that means there are enough premades to have their own queue, not sure why you want to keep fighting solo queuers unless... maybe you aren't really that great against other premades or you just want to ROFLSTOMP disorganized players who barely break 10k DPS in PvE.

Edited April 3 by Darkestmonty

[Samcuu]

2 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

you mean the farming premades who were more conerned with DPS and kills than objectives or other premades who were objective driven to win?

If you were facing a lot of premades then I'm sure there shouldn't be an issue if premades had their own queue and solo had their own queue.

And? Let's revisit the context of the conversation here. "Seasons are too hard because it's too hard to win matches", as the op said he had to play like 56 matches to get his 3 weeklies done. I've said elsewhere that winning matches against farming premades is not that difficult. Facing off against said premades we gave them plenty of warm bodies to farm damage off of, also while playing objectives and helping our team win (while our one dps still did top dmg lol). So maybe taking a different approach similar to mine might yield 3 weeklies done in 16 matches instead of 56. That was the whole point of the conversation. 

Second, we were a team of 3 going up against 5-6. Not sure how good u are at math but adding those numbers up doesn't equal 16 which is the total you'd need for a match to pop 👍😁

6 minutes ago, septru said:

Gotta love the forums. Somehow it always comes back to premade QQ. 🤣

Like clockwork lol not even the topic of discussion. 

 

8 minutes ago, septru said:

Do premades on SS que arenas? On SF most of the premades only que warzones, which can get quite boring. 

I play on SF so I couldn't tell you. When we queued for arenas we were just a tank and heal combo, but we were getting tank/heal games during prime time. The matchmaking got progressively worse as the night went on tho 😂😂

[Luciferior]

@septru Folks who give up always need a reason to do so and premades are the perfect scapegoat 

I dont like premades my self yet this idea of ...Oh so and so is on the opp team with their guild ...gota throw in the towel ...

Yeah that never made sense to me 

Everytime I see them on the op team I go right for em granted they kill me damn near everytime lol But I sure know how to annoy em when they swap targets

Soon as they swap to someone else I target 1 of their dps start laying on that CC concussion round electro net hunter kill droid firing off disabling shot

Next thing thing I know their back on me with a vengeance... I can almost sense the moment when I start to bug them I hear a unified chant of "So you have chosen death" as they run back to me maybe I am a masochist for it but it brightens my day lol

If they want their damage farm they better kill me first Or I am going to annoy them the literal entire time lol

Edited April 3 by Luciferior

[Darkestmonty]

8 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

I play on SF so I couldn't tell you. When we queued for arenas we were just a tank and heal combo, but we were getting tank/heal games during prime time. The matchmaking got progressively worse as the night went on tho 😂😂

2-3 people grouped up who know what they are doing and are focused on winning are usually enough to destroy most PUGs. Even 2-3 people not grouped knowing what to do is enough to destroy most teams because of how poorly people understand WZs or care about trying to win.

Match making does need to be improved but I don't think it is possible. I doubt SWTOR has the player base on each separate server to have decent match making without forcing players to wait too long.

Even on SF, which has the highest population by far, I see the same players on either side way too often even during prime time.

I don't blame you for being premade groups, I don't even get upset over premade groups for winning, what really irritates me about premades is ending up on their team when all they want to do is throw the game and farm kills. That's usually the point where I just give up and end the game ASAP.

Edited April 3 by Darkestmonty

[septru]

7 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

I play on SF so I couldn't tell you.

Oh what's your toon name? 

[Luciferior]

@Samcuu Alot of the times I qued in the past for solo there didnt seem to be any premades in arena on SF

Granted recently two fury maras from imp side that I know who used to do so have returned to the game recently

So they might duo but besides them I havnt seen any premades in arenas in quite a while

[meddani]

pvp has been torture this past few weeks (actually the game itself) between the playerbase being the most braind!ead as it has ever been and the lack of content in general, i can't even find the motivation to log in anymore lmao

[Luciferior]

@meddaniAlot of that might depend on your server...

On Star forge atm I swear all of Imp side lol has decided to damage farm I have never seen so many teams dedicated to fighting

yet the past few weeks it went from a few to im going to say least 60% of my matches currently

Now to be clear I am not against the damage farm though it would sure be nice to have some of my team backing me when that happens lol

So far It seems I only have 2 guilds that pay attention to my existence when Im on their team ...naturally I will give them a shout out and salute for doing such "Fotm" and "Bugsword" Former in biofail we trust those are the only 2 guilds that seem to keep it fun 

They seem to look out for me when I get them on my team and when I go against them they fight me fairly 

But the rest of these matches phew good thing I get my spoils of war done at the beginning of the week because If I was getting in these matches needing to win I would be demoralized lol

To be fair alot of these guilds just want fights and I can support that notion but when I go against an opposing damage farm team with 2-3 engi snipers a dedicated tank and healer combo and Im off by my lonesome trying to survive with minimal assistance its rough 

In those moments you literally have to turn into a masochist just to survive it without getting angry because when those matches start and its clear from the beginning the damage farm is going to happen a few try to avoid it and leave the fights lopsided lol

Not to mention everytime those big fights happen especially on yavin and voidstar the lag is something else sheer abomination lag Im pressing skills 2/3 times trying to get them to go off 

My toaster of a computer does not like those fights..

Edited April 7 by Luciferior

[Argomemnon]

The sad thing about all of this is players are saying they already don't like the content and the reasons why. Then precede to get punished for doing objectives. Its wild how this works out and really only rewards the Damage farms so people can get their medals needed for the season. I think there should be an objectives one instead of medals earned. This will hopefully stop the damage farms are go back more towards objectives the way they are supposed to be done.

[Luciferior]

@Argomemnon When I see a few people trying for the objective I honestly do what I can to help them get it but if the majority of the team is looking to fight the other team I dont want to leave them short handed in that fight

On maps like voidstar in a big brewha kind of brawl where its going down if the defending team completely commits to the fight on one side

Which seems to happen a bit now the attacking team usually my own decides to meet them towards the middle of which ever side their own and fight them and It really only takes 1 stealth to wander off on its own to take the doors all the way to the datacron while everyone else fights

I get 3 kinds of teams these days fight based teams are the majority now some objective player teams and some teams who cant do objectives or even win fights and I call those the worst possible match ups being the last ones...

I get those teams when my MMR says Iv been winning to much I break that glass ceiling of 50% win loss ratio the teams of people are filled with players who are coming in who dont even have their sprint toggle on popping their presence stims *IN MATCH* undergeared they are the deadmen walking of PvP

You can literally make these people out the second they come into a match exploring like a tourist going into a new hotel for the first time "Well this is nice!" ....Im thinking to my self soon as I start inspecting them to confirm my fears that this match is going to hurt in more ways than one...

They claim to try for objective matches yet they cant be bothered to work for them these team are losing fights where they outnumber the opposing team in engagements half of them are running stealth specs who cant even fight people 2v1

And when we start falling behind in matches these are the people raging in chat that the team as a whole is worthless tossing out insults left n right they are beyond help nothing can be done to win those matches and I cant even fight for fun because they cant even win outnumbering people lol 

Their yelling to let the op team cap faster so they can end the match...

Teams like that are why there are so many premades those very same premades are forming up so many like minded players on their team to avoid getting stuck with the cannon fodder 

No one wants to assist a player or group of players who are just going to cry in chat about how bad their getting beat and they type the entire match rather then even fight

Everyone in PvP has seen these kinds of players in every server I wager the literal carebears they cant win objectives they cant win fights they Die more than I do which is hard to do and soon as they speak in chat its something that pisses people off to the point where the team spends more time arguing then even playing the match

It just spirals from there and I really hate to say this yet once again I feel like I have to...

As long as these carebear cannon fodder players come into PvP expecting to win despite the notion their not geared properly their using presence stims *had one last night* they dont even have their sprint toggles on they dont know how to use their builds to be effective in any manner...

Those players are going to keep encouraging more premades to form up and coming into the ques to keep fighting and as much as it pains me to say it lol .... I would rather be on a damage farming premade team that can atleast enjoy the fight 

Vs being on a literal team of cannon fodder who cannot accomplish anything objectives or outnumbering others without needing their hands held and thats what it truly is If you do not come in and carry those players like your soul literally depends on it..

Now to be fair I am not some great PvP player I really am not I suck something fierce 99% of the time lol I can still contribute during fights... I can occasionally spot a healer and pressure it till they gota break away from their team to LoS me 

I can occasionally string together a good combo on my sharpshooter slinger that sends a few people running for the hills or global a few bad mercs who got their dcds interrupted because they werent paying attention to my damage..

People dont need to be great at PvP they just have to be wiling to learn how to fight some and when they do get on teams people see them of having value and decide to support them whether it be objective or damage farming

I am literally repping a guild tag in PvP that says "Global Bait Dropping Hypercrates" and while being horrifically average at PvP...

Yet I still have some groups of people willing to support me in team fights or objectives despite me being mediocre they have seen me enough times in PvP to know I can contribute to either objective fights or damage farms in a meaningful way I might not be MVP But I can pull my weight...

I do not believe those players who continue to support me would do as such If they thought I was completely worthless in all aspects of PvP

 

Edited April 7 by Luciferior

[Darkestmonty]

12 hours ago, Argomemnon said:

The sad thing about all of this is players are saying they already don't like the content and the reasons why. Then precede to get punished for doing objectives. Its wild how this works out and really only rewards the Damage farms so people can get their medals needed for the season. I think there should be an objectives one instead of medals earned. This will hopefully stop the damage farms are go back more towards objectives the way they are supposed to be done.

you can farm some medals roaming around in a kill group but that's not the best way to earn medals and probably isn't the goal of premades that intentionally ignore objectives and lose.

On a loss I usually end with 7-10 medals, on a win I can end with 10-18 medal (voidstar) because I play objectives, have high damage, and heal.

Edited April 8 by Darkestmonty

[Ajalkaar]

On 3/30/2024 at 7:06 PM, RACATW said:

Plus you should be restricted from stacking people in the 90%+ percentile within the same group

sorry but no this would mean that the would punished players because they're good ?? and you would have to throw your winrate elo or whatever just to get greater chances to get a proc. That's a terrible idea.

A better idea would be to bring back a competitive Q and a form of ranked it's just simple as that

Edited April 13 by Ajalkaar

[Alericus]

ranked isnt coming back, it became nothing more than win trading and cheating. Its that simple and I believe the devs have implied as much.. Premades arent the issue. having premades constantly playing randoms is. the queues need to be simple , solo vs solo and premades vs premades. And rather than expect everyone to have the minimum gear, the top gear need to be sorted away from the bottom gear so the lowers can catch up. Only other thing I can add is yes we should allow players to pick what maps they want. I think a lot of afk behavior would end if that feature was added but I dont know how that might play out.

Seems to me players want the death match style of arenas but they want the easy rewards of 8 man regs. The daily is fine at 3 matches but still think a loss should get squat otherwise theres incentive for win trading. The weekly I think should be reviewed like the other features 1 at a time as you see how each change impacts the game. But first thing to make things easier for newbies and take away the vets who have total knowledge of each map and know the exploits and tactics like a glove, change the maps on a regular basis to level the playing field. I think its time to retire the hutball maps completely its not pvp its just capture the flag and has always had issues with win trading, cheating, lag and glitching.