7.4 Story (spoilers) My Thoughts...

[JakRoanin]

Okay, so I played through both on a BH and a Trooper so, I could be as fully immersed in the narrative as possible on both sides and of course, I have a deep emotional attachment to both class stories and this makes me more subjective. That said, I don't think my biases blow my credibility in constructive critical thinking.

Over all, there were moments of true brilliance on both sides. Some of the best and funny dialogue since being on Kira and Sourge's ship, during EoO, and some massive emotional impact for a Mando BH. Special kudos for 

Spoiler

Bringing back Krista's Daughter, and the Coruscant Security operative from base game!

That said, I'm more than a little let down that with these true gems of brilliance there were catastrophic missed opportunities to make the game feel like it did when you created your PC's. 

Even with the amazing return of base game NPC's they only make an impact if you did their quests, and on Republic Side those quest are all Optional! On IMP side only the BH gets the full emotional impact! What the hay Broadsword! I realize there was both a massive writers and actor's strike, no it's not Broadsword's fault, but to give only some players the emotional punch and not others cheapens the impact. There were other NPC's that could have been used, for example: For Agents, Shara Jenn, the former Minister of Intelligence, or any other of the Watchers or Fixers we interacted with would have done wonders! For a Sith why not someone we actually knew? This makes no sense to me.

As for the actual storyline I have very few complaints on Imp side. Krovos while not terribly interesting to me, is so much fun to disrespect. I just laughed my head off because she entirely ignores the fact that a Mando isn't going to care about her priorities. Well... Mine doesn't. The new NPC was interesting enough, and it's always great to see these huge galactic conflicts and themes hit and affect the ordinary people. That in the end, the great powers are not the point it's people who count. Or don't, if you're a nasty DS'er.

Pub Side I'm a bit peeved, again! Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, was Aric Jorgun completely ignored?! Really, I'm asking @CaitlinSullivan and @JackieKo. What possible justification is there to not have even a letter with his thoughts. I haven't played Smuggler yet, but I'm nearly certain Corso doesn't have any context either and I want to know WHY! Just recently @CaitlinSullivan posted how she would always want our old friends to have a real impact and which two Comps have the most impact in a story set on Ord Mantel? You can't tell me, that wasn't discussed in the writers room I won't believe it. If the VA's were unavailable that is perfectly understandable but not even a letter! No, sorry, do not pass GO do not collect 200 credits, this is just shockingly incomprehensible! The player's have been pleading for more letters since JUS what is the bloody problem!

Okay, slightly more disappointed than I originally thought I was... Calming down now. Again, the story wasn't bad at all. I thought Blys and not Arn should have been our Comp at first but okay... I really wanted him to be more than just an overwhelmed good man trying to keep things going when he had nothing to do it with. I was disappointed that he wasn't left with any hope. Still nothing was worse than Pub Side Manaan, so I can still say I did enjoy it.

As for Sa'Har and Rik'an, I'm one third sympathetic to the emotional slavery Heta has them in and two parts. The pacing is too slow! This isn't the type of emotional threat that needs a simmer, it needs a Chernobyl mass meltdown and it needs it NOW! Heta can be the big bad, just get to the part where the siblings are faced with winner walks away, please. This slow burn is not good.  

And those are my thoughts on Ord, haven't done Lane's quests yet. Will post that later.

[witchglove]

On 12/7/2023 at 12:55 AM, JakRoanin said:

Pub Side I'm a bit peeved, again! Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, was Aric Jorgun completely ignored?! Really, I'm asking @CaitlinSullivan and @JackieKo. What possible justification is there to not have even a letter with his thoughts. I haven't played Smuggler yet, but I'm nearly certain Corso doesn't have any context either and I want to know WHY! Just recently @CaitlinSullivan posted how she would always want our old friends to have a real impact and which two Comps have the most impact in a story set on Ord Mantel? You can't tell me, that wasn't discussed in the writers room I won't believe it. If the VA's were unavailable that is perfectly understandable but not even a letter! No, sorry, do not pass GO do not collect 200 credits, this is just shockingly incomprehensible! The player's have been pleading for more letters since JUS what is the bloody problem!

I was going to post the exact same thing in one of the other threads (and only didn't because I felt I'd already complained too much about the bugged crate on release-day 😄). I agree completely. I was very sad not to see Aric or any of the other companions with a connection to Ord Mantell, too. I also love when they bring back minor NPCs from the base game storylines, but I wish their first priority would always be our old (and very neglected) class companions - and the same thing goes for letters. It does add flavour to get mails from obscure NPCs, but I would much, much, much rather hear from the companion characters.

I heard that Lane's questline is really good and lots of fun. Looking forward to playing that next!

[JakRoanin]

Lol great minds, dear, great minds.😁

[CaitlinSullivan]

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on what you’ve played through so far in 7.4, I’m glad you found a fair amount of things to enjoy! Since I was tagged, I’d like to take this opportunity to pull back the curtain slightly and look at why certain narrative threads do and do not end up in the final product.

First, the most important thing to remember is that SWTOR is a BIG GAME. I know y’all know this already but I’m reiterating it anyway because it is a BIG. GAME. There are so many narrative threads–different character arcs, story permutations, big decisions–that you will experience from the second you arrive on the starter planet for your Origin Story. 

However, when you compare the vast amount of potential narrative foundations to the resources we have to build on them, we have to be very mindful. Even for the things that seem like a no-brainer, like the examples you pointed out, we have to be very cognizant of where we spend our finite time and effort.

The more resources a piece of content uses, the wider breadth of the audience it has to be relevant to. A letter from a specific companion (even one that makes narrative sense to include) will only reach a portion of the audience, but it requires writing, feedback collecting, editing, revising, implementing, scripting, documentation, localization, and testing. On the other hand, a class-specific line in a KOTOR-style scene also reaches only a portion of the audience, but it has a considerably smaller impact on time and resources.

A similar example that you mentioned–choosing recognizable characters from the Agent, Inquisitor, and Warrior Origin Stories to appear on Port Nowhere. If an option exists to kill a character–as is the case for many of the notable characters from these Origin Stories–including them in the story means writing double the lines, recording double the dialogue, which snowballs into additional cinematic, design, scripting, and testing tasks.

Now, all that isn’t to say that killable characters will never be included (we’ve included several of them at the forefront of recent updates!), but it does partially inform our decisions. If we include a character with the potential to be so narrowly recognized, their inclusion in the narrative must be especially meaningful, even to players who do not recognize that character. Also, prioritizing content that has the widest impact across all players means our range of content can be polished to our necessary quality standards.

All that was a lot of words to say that when we’re considering the narrative threads to include in content, we view all the options through this multi-faceted lens of cost vs. impact. We choose what to include based on what fits our narrative goals, has a meaningful and far-reaching impact, and won’t be a detriment to scope, cost, and quality in the ways I’ve described. As humans with a finite amount of resources, that sometimes means we can’t include everything we’d like to. But these stories aren’t forgotten, and they still mean as much to us as they do to y’all!

[Nee-Elder]

18 minutes ago, CaitlinSullivan said:

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on what you’ve played through so far in 7.4, I’m glad you found a fair amount of things to enjoy!

i have enjoyed the new 7.4 story & quest & side-missions  content  ( and most all content in SWTOR tbqh ) .  My only  "complaint"  is simply  how short most new content  is, combined with how infrequently we loyal  $ubscribers  receive it.  -- Well that  plus the fact that  EA  ( or @KeithKanneg ?? )  refuses to allow solid writers like yourself to  integate & incorporate GSF  PvE  content for just one Dev cycle please. 

18 minutes ago, CaitlinSullivan said:

 Since I was tagged, I’d like to take this opportunity to pull back the curtain slightly

i truly appreciate your taking the time  and i wish/hope  you ( and other DEVS ) would please post more like this more often.

18 minutes ago, CaitlinSullivan said:

 If we include a character with the potential to be so narrowly recognized, their inclusion in the narrative must be especially meaningful, even to players who do not recognize that character.

We choose what to include based on what fits our narrative goals,

Just to mention  one example of how challenging it might be for you Devs/Writers to think of EVERY possible scenario:  This weekend, while running the new 7.4 content , i happened to use my  unlocked companion  'Shae Vizla'  ( during the portions when i wasn't  forced to use one of your Level 10  brief tag-along companions )  and as you can probably guess  it was somewhat  immersion-breaking when certain dialogs & cutscenes  referred to that same Shae Vizla  "being gone" or whatever.   Uhh,  Shae is  right beside me!! 

p.s.  Any thoughts @CaitlinSullivan  about the whole  'Sabatour'  option/situation/complication? --> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/932582-74-kessan-landing-saboteurloyalist-bug/

Edited December 11, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[witchglove]

7 minutes ago, CaitlinSullivan said:

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on what you’ve played through so far in 7.4, I’m glad you found a fair amount of things to enjoy! Since I was tagged, I’d like to take this opportunity to pull back the curtain slightly and look at why certain narrative threads do and do not end up in the final product.

First, the most important thing to remember is that SWTOR is a BIG GAME. I know y’all know this already but I’m reiterating it anyway because it is a BIG. GAME. There are so many narrative threads–different character arcs, story permutations, big decisions–that you will experience from the second you arrive on the starter planet for your Origin Story. 

However, when you compare the vast amount of potential narrative foundations to the resources we have to build on them, we have to be very mindful. Even for the things that seem like a no-brainer, like the examples you pointed out, we have to be very cognizant of where we spend our finite time and effort.

The more resources a piece of content uses, the wider breadth of the audience it has to be relevant to. A letter from a specific companion (even one that makes narrative sense to include) will only reach a portion of the audience, but it requires writing, feedback collecting, editing, revising, implementing, scripting, documentation, localization, and testing. On the other hand, a class-specific line in a KOTOR-style scene also reaches only a portion of the audience, but it has a considerably smaller impact on time and resources.

A similar example that you mentioned–choosing recognizable characters from the Agent, Inquisitor, and Warrior Origin Stories to appear on Port Nowhere. If an option exists to kill a character–as is the case for many of the notable characters from these Origin Stories–including them in the story means writing double the lines, recording double the dialogue, which snowballs into additional cinematic, design, scripting, and testing tasks.

Now, all that isn’t to say that killable characters will never be included (we’ve included several of them at the forefront of recent updates!), but it does partially inform our decisions. If we include a character with the potential to be so narrowly recognized, their inclusion in the narrative must be especially meaningful, even to players who do not recognize that character. Also, prioritizing content that has the widest impact across all players means our range of content can be polished to our necessary quality standards.

All that was a lot of words to say that when we’re considering the narrative threads to include in content, we view all the options through this multi-faceted lens of cost vs. impact. We choose what to include based on what fits our narrative goals, has a meaningful and far-reaching impact, and won’t be a detriment to scope, cost, and quality in the ways I’ve described. As humans with a finite amount of resources, that sometimes means we can’t include everything we’d like to. But these stories aren’t forgotten, and they still mean as much to us as they do to y’all!

It's always wonderful to get these glimpses behind the curtain, and to see you (and the rest of the team) reiterate that you still care about all of the companion characters, including the ones who can be killed (and I think you have more than proven that with the amazing content we've had in recent updates for Arcann and Torian). I hope all of the writers on team view our calls for even more companion content as praise for writing characters that we are still emotionally invested in, even after some of them have been silent for years.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond ❤️

[Whykara]

1 hour ago, Nee-Elder said:

Uhh,  Shae is  right beside me!! 

She is also chilling on the fleet 😉 Like seriously Jekiah, are you even trying?

[LtGeneralGezlin]

1 hour ago, CaitlinSullivan said:

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on what you’ve played through so far in 7.4, I’m glad you found a fair amount of things to enjoy! Since I was tagged, I’d like to take this opportunity to pull back the curtain slightly and look at why certain narrative threads do and do not end up in the final product.

First, the most important thing to remember is that SWTOR is a BIG GAME. I know y’all know this already but I’m reiterating it anyway because it is a BIG. GAME. There are so many narrative threads–different character arcs, story permutations, big decisions–that you will experience from the second you arrive on the starter planet for your Origin Story. 

However, when you compare the vast amount of potential narrative foundations to the resources we have to build on them, we have to be very mindful. Even for the things that seem like a no-brainer, like the examples you pointed out, we have to be very cognizant of where we spend our finite time and effort.

The more resources a piece of content uses, the wider breadth of the audience it has to be relevant to. A letter from a specific companion (even one that makes narrative sense to include) will only reach a portion of the audience, but it requires writing, feedback collecting, editing, revising, implementing, scripting, documentation, localization, and testing. On the other hand, a class-specific line in a KOTOR-style scene also reaches only a portion of the audience, but it has a considerably smaller impact on time and resources.

A similar example that you mentioned–choosing recognizable characters from the Agent, Inquisitor, and Warrior Origin Stories to appear on Port Nowhere. If an option exists to kill a character–as is the case for many of the notable characters from these Origin Stories–including them in the story means writing double the lines, recording double the dialogue, which snowballs into additional cinematic, design, scripting, and testing tasks.

Now, all that isn’t to say that killable characters will never be included (we’ve included several of them at the forefront of recent updates!), but it does partially inform our decisions. If we include a character with the potential to be so narrowly recognized, their inclusion in the narrative must be especially meaningful, even to players who do not recognize that character. Also, prioritizing content that has the widest impact across all players means our range of content can be polished to our necessary quality standards.

All that was a lot of words to say that when we’re considering the narrative threads to include in content, we view all the options through this multi-faceted lens of cost vs. impact. We choose what to include based on what fits our narrative goals, has a meaningful and far-reaching impact, and won’t be a detriment to scope, cost, and quality in the ways I’ve described. As humans with a finite amount of resources, that sometimes means we can’t include everything we’d like to. But these stories aren’t forgotten, and they still mean as much to us as they do to y’all!

I have to ask, what was the thought behind mixing both the SWTOR Style and KotOR Style cutscenes in the main story for 7.4? I found it pretty jarring to go from the standard opening on Port Nowhere to a KotOR-style cutscene on Ord Mantell, then back to the SWTOR style, and then to the KotOR Style. I thought the same when it happened in 7.3, when the majority of the story was told in the SWTOR-style cinematic, then every cutscene we had when working to help the Gormak and Voss was a KotOR-style cutscene, and then when we met the Three, it was a SWTOR Style cutscene. I can understand when it's things like Event stories or even the Manaan Daily questline, and Lane's questline. Still, the main story has always been told using the SWTOR Style, even back when the KotOR style cutscene design was introduced in 4.0, it was only used for Alliance Alerts and the Star Fortress Quests, never in the main story.

Is this going to be a thing we'll see more of in the main story going forward? I mean, I understand why it is used from a cost point of view (24 VA's, 8 per language in the game), and it makes it easier to include Origin/Class Story references, but it just seems like a weird choice that almost no one on the Dev Team has mentioned before 7.4, or even 7.3's release.

[SithFromKesh]

33 minutes ago, LtGeneralGezlin said:

(24 VA's, 8 per language in the game)

even more than that - 8 origin stories x 2 genders x 3 languages makes for 48 VAs that need to say every line for the player character.

That said, to me it feels like the fully voiced cinematics are still present for all major story beats, and if it means more meaty story updates, I'll happily accept "classic style" unvoiced dialogue for the stuff in between - especially since that might allow for a lot of origin story-specific dialogue options...

[Darthjantom]

3 hours ago, CaitlinSullivan said:

All that was a lot of words to say that when we’re considering the narrative threads to include in content, we view all the options through this multi-faceted lens of cost vs. impact. We choose what to include based on what fits our narrative goals, has a meaningful and far-reaching impact, and won’t be a detriment to scope, cost, and quality in the ways I’ve described. As humans with a finite amount of resources, that sometimes means we can’t include everything we’d like to. But these stories aren’t forgotten, and they still mean as much to us as they do to y’all!

Always interesting to hear a little more about the development process for the game.

So far i'm really enjoying 7.4, Kessan's Landing is a nice new area, and the dailies/heroics are less annoying then Ruhnuk's. (I especially really liked the Heroic 4 boss on Ord Mantell, he was a nice surprise challenge.)

I really liked the opening bit on Port Nowhere, even though it was short it's fun to have these little narrative missions inbetween the bigger ones, like the return to Elom digsite in 7.1, that aren't just a quick cutscene on Odessen.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Darthjantom

[hillerbees]

Thank you @CaitlinSullivan for posting - its great to see devs such as yourself, @EricMusco and others explain and engage with the players like this.  There seems to be a definate improvement in comminication since moving to Broadsword and it does make a huge difference to us.  Thanks again.

[Asdanty]

Typically, I spend my time in SWTOR as a solo player or random OP group participant.  So, i would like to express my sincere gratitude for the new gearing system.  Storyline is also better then we had for a long time - with all aligment choises (at last) and cutscenes.

It`s like my character alive again. 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Asdanty
error

[VilianSW]

So far I've run the update content on my main only, the smuggler - and gotta admit, it was the best thing in game in months, if not years. The initial shootout at Port Nowhere was great, enjoyed return to the place a lot; and class story so clearly referenced on Ord Mantell, brilliant take. It's a very good update story-wise, so much better than 7.3 was.
There is one major "but" though.
Where. Is. Corso. I. Ask.
He's a native Mantellian, played such a big role in smuggler's class story, and yet he does not even send a letter when things are getting busy on his home planet? Not a word from him when his Commander (and ex-wife) returns to the planet? Come on, that's a major let down. A letter is all I asked for. Not an epic voiced cutscene, not a KoTFE-styled dialog, just one letter. Not even a personal one, not gender-specific, not marriage-specific, just a single line meaning he's still around and cares about Ord Mantell. ONE MESSAGE.
I'm still looking forward to run the story on all the eligible chars I've got left. It's just hurts that Corso was omitted, just as Aric apparently was. One letter from each, do you know how much it'd mean for many people? Apparently not. Things are going in the right direction, but not quite there yet. Please try to have in mind how much of emotional impact SWTOR can do, and act somewhat more accordingly.
Don't even get me started on Life Day letters, which we apparently won't ever get, from anyone.

[JakRoanin]

Thank you, @CaitlinSullivan, but I'm sorry, it still doesn't explain why no Letters. PS. I still want Shara Jenn and Beryl Thorne.

[Shayddow]

A possible explanation for absence:

Spoiler

Aric has a kill option during KOTFE

Quote

Spoiler

 

 

However, Corso doesn't, I don't think. There's no reason for no letter from him for smugglers.

[TziganeNZ]

Have just completed it on one (Imp) character. My thoughts - disappointingly underwhelming.  Far, far too short. Horribly slow paced - talk about dragging the (Hidden) Chain.....I'll do it again on a Pub-side character, but if this is the breadth and depth (incredibly shallow) of what is going to be put out, I'll wait until several have been released (save them up) then take my characters through from Ruhnuk (I have several sitting at this point) so I get a decent length of storyline. And have a reasonable chance of not actually forgetting what the story is about between releases.

Grade: 4/10.

Edit: And yes, some letters would have been brilliant. Made no sense to not include some sort of communication from Corso and/or Aric.

Edited December 12, 2023 by TziganeNZ

[JakRoanin]

Now, I can't say there's no depth to the story, there were so many brilliant moments. Unfortunately, they were just choppy. Like I said, seeing the effect of all the chaos throughout the galaxy is incredibly touching (for me) and as a Mando, you do feel a major sense of urgency. However, it's not personal enough for the other Origins. I wish they could have split the Malgus storyline for Force Users and the Mando's for tech's, but as @CaitlinSullivan said, we have to remember they have limitations.

 That said, I can't believe resources are so limited that LETTERS are a no-go!

[Whykara]

34 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

That said, I can't believe resources are so limited that LETTERS are a no-go!

That sounds very strange to me too. Like honestly, how bad must things be?

[JakRoanin]

Well, I do believe things are changing, so I'll stick to patience. However, I can't say how much it means that @CaitlinSullivan reads and comments.

[LanceDefender]

Like, how mail is less resource taking than cutscene? Strange.


Noone with brain wants you to return to story people that can be killed, but there are many characters that could return and are not killed. Like (faction) Darth Nurin or Hargrev, Jadus?
Or class related like (Agent)?
I just hope you have list of characters that could return and you will make them return and that EVERY class will meet someone they met in their class stories.
You know, e.g Dark Council. You can't use half of them, becasue you made them killable. So way forward it to kill those killable and make new unkillable DC. E.g Darth Nurin or Hargrev should return to story as DC members, because most of us will know these characters, so that could be good way to make whole DC relevant again.
 

[TahliahCOH]

On 12/6/2023 at 5:55 PM, JakRoanin said:

I haven't played Smuggler yet, but I'm nearly certain Corso doesn't have any context either and I want to know WHY!

He doesn't. Very disappointing. I get that a lot of players don't love Corso, but he's my romance on my first toon (yes, I stuck with him through all the expansions despite the draw of Theron and Arcann), but he's just  . . . gone. Never comes to give me a kiss or ramble on about our future farm life. I do miss that.

This is really true of most original comps, though. I miss Vector romance, too. But I was very heartened that I could romance Scourge at long last! That almost makes up for the Corso and Vector dev. hate. Almost but not quite. And I still want Ivory back on my smuggler. She would so have loved to love him!

[JakRoanin]

Well my Smugglers are guys and straight as arrows, but one wants Beryl Thorne, while one might want Lane, can't decide yet. I have hope.

[Melaras]

OK so @JakRoanin said that he wants more references to the origin stories even in the form of mails. He also said that he wants interaction with his companions and even offers companion related story suggestions that actually make a lot of sense.

Then @CaitlinSullivan replies only to say that:

I) Thanks for your ideas and opinions but there's no need to offer suggestions as they have thought of everything but they are very cognizant.

II) Mails are very expensive to implement and require tons of writers, editors, developers, the Pope of Rome, et cetera.

III) If something requires resources (please see point II), it has to be generic and not class related, ergo don't you dare expect expensive origin story related mails that only touch a portion of the audience.

IV) You can kiss your killable companions goodbye, you won't see them again as the fact of their killability partially informs their decisions.

V) They do not have an infinite amount of resources because they are not the Rakata Empire and one needs billions to implement things that used to be this game's standards therefore enjoy your KotOR scenes and aliens.

VI) There's no need to worry, the origin stories are not forgotten and won't be because they still mean a lot to us, like the dead still live if we keep remembering them.

And then you guys thank Caitlin as she took the time to offer wonderful glimpses behind the curtain and so on.

 

Brilliant.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Melaras

[LanceDefender]

This is a good start. Maybe in next reply we'll see that they gonna remove voiced dialogues and shift for Kotor-styled cutscenes, because it's too expensive or impact too few players.

[Melaras]

15 minutes ago, LanceDefender said:

This is a good start. Maybe in next reply we'll see that they gonna remove voiced dialogues and shift for Kotor-styled cutscenes, because it's too expensive or impact too few players.

And we will thank them for it cause they grace us with their attention in the form of well-written replies that seem to be very successful in making people missing the point. More power to the writers!