GSF: Okay, it's me. But now what?

[Caleb_Nokama]

To get ahead of a few things here: I was playing SWTOR in the beta, and over the years since. There are essentially no game modes or mechanics I don't at least fundamentally understand. There are mechanics that are just plain old disagreeable (I detest the CC/resolve system, but I get how/why it works the way it does), but then there's ones that are actively bad.

 

In specific: GSF "contribution" penalties. To take an example, I was having a particularly bad match earlier today, couldn't quite land shots or get situated anywhere that was helpful. Not top of my game, clearly, but still a "me" problem. But then that "you're not contributing" message popped up. I've seen it before, it's whatever. But, from that point on, I had even heavier pressure to do something, ANYTHING that "contributed" to the match, and it just plain couldn't be done. I'd get picked off at spawn without landing any hits, I'd get out-flown and killed at objectives without landing any hits, I just could not outplay the people in that match.

Then a fun new message, telling me I had 5 seconds to hit an objective or target before I got booted. I was dead, between spawns, when this happened. I'm sure you can figure out what followed: kicked, and locked out. How am I supposed to improve if I can't even play?

I've spent literal years poring over guides, tips, build suggestions, strategy suggestions, and I just plain cannot figure out how anyone is this good at this game mode. I know it's less twitch and more strategy, the mechanics aren't a mystery in and of themselves. But they just don't "click" in my head for some reason, and it's just intensely frustrating. I'd have probably saved this rant and hopped in a GSF discord, but all the ones posted across this forum are dead.

 

So, what else can I do? I don't want to keep feeding people who've somehow mastered a game mode I still struggle with, and I certainly can't improve if the game keeps kicking/locking me out of it. I'm at my wits end here.

[Nee-Elder]

15 hours ago, Caleb_Nokama said:

In specific: GSF "contribution" penalties.

So, what else can I do?

First thing is just to practice as much as possible. ( seems so obvious, right?  But still ...yeah.... practice  )

Secondly,  see this  GSF guide thread ( which should still  be valid ) --> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/650717-stasies-galactic-starfighter-guide-ships-components-crew-tips/

Lastly, if you have time/interest , see these other  same topic threads as yours ( with some random tips from helpful  pilots who sympathize with your frustration ) ....

• https://forums.swtor.com/topic/926346-gsf-vote-kick-need-to-be-fixed/
• https://forums.swtor.com/topic/927493-the-gsf-bot-is-a-bad-idea/
• https://forums.swtor.com/topic/926685-gee-bioware-tell-me-how-to-play-your-game-autokick-and-defensive-playstyles/

Edited November 2, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[Caleb_Nokama]

Helpful info, thanks for the links! Though, I'm still struggling to figure out how to improve beyond all the guides and such.

[catsi]

In that instance its just practice practice practice

 

keep flying GSF has a stiff learning curve but one that does improve with more matches and flying time 

 

For dom matches get to a sat thats the big tip there. the sats are the key as long as youe on one and either defending or contesting it you should be fine.

 

For TDMs i grant you it can be a bit trickier but some of the best advice i can give is find a wingman and stick with them or stay near the group shoot anything that gets in range using tab to target the closest enemy keep the enemy incide the big circle and the closer to the center the better

 

I know it can be rough they did make the non contributing timer a lot tougher  because of a bunch of people just going AFK and coasting along in matches which ended up costing people who were actually trying the win. Still you are puting in the effort to learn and thats the key to success. type /cjoin gsf for the gsf channel and ask for any vets in it for tips as you can

 

and yeah check out Stasiss guide and Despons GSF school on youtube for even more information best of luck and keep flying well see you out in space 😺

 

(4) GSF School - YouTube

[DakhathKilrathi]

18 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Secondly,  see this  GSF guide thread ( which should still  be valid ) --> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/650717-stasies-galactic-starfighter-guide-ships-components-crew-tips/

Wow, no. This is super outdated. It's a good resource for understanding some of the basics but I don't think it's great as a starting point anymore. GSF School was mentioned and it's a pretty good place to start. There are also quite a few resources in the unofficial GSF Discord server, link available in my signature. There are no stupid questions and people there are always happy to help. 

My guide is also there but it's not complete; I'm a bit late in getting to it but the plan is to finish it for the 10th anniversary of GSF. Devs might not care, but I do. The part that is complete does cover most of the questions you have, however. My old guide is also still available though the ship specific parts of it are outdated. 

Also, if you have a PC that will allow you to record matches, that's honestly the best way to help yourself improve. I'm always happy to review gameplay videos with a second by second breakdown of what you could or should be doing better. You can also start by watching videos of people who know what they're doing so you can see what that looks like first hand. 
 

[Nee-Elder]

29 minutes ago, DakhathKilrathi said:

Wow, no. This is super outdated.

That original thread may have started in 2014, but it has 17 pages worth of posts, including some from 2022 & 2023.

So once again, i disagree with your  opinion.

If you stop for a moment you'd also realize how much your "outdated" comment flies in the face of yourself.  ( re: since BioWare never touches GSF in practically a decade , how then can an older thread be  COMPLETELY dismissed as "outdated" ? )

And btw your whole  "Wow, no"   snarky start  further validates my prior claim that you just simply don't like me ( for obvious reasons )  and now look for any chance to snipe.

Forums are funny.

---------

OP @Caleb_Nokama:  Not sure which server you're on but  if you haven't already  be sure to do as @catsi  suggested by  /cjoin GSF  chat channel , since most pilots  are indeed extremely helpful.  If people don't respond immediately, it's just cuz they are mid-fight in a match.

Sure, there's a few bad apples with their own agendas  of course, but otherwise  GSF = best community in the game. ( still )

Edited November 2, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: haters are so obvious lol

[Toraak]

2 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

That original thread may have started in 2014, but it has 17 pages worth of posts, including some from 2022 & 2023.

So once again, i disagree with your  opinion.

If you stop for a moment you'd also realize how much your "outdated" comment flies in the face of yourself.  ( re: since BioWare never touches GSF in practically a decade , how then can an older thread be  COMPLETELY dismissed as "outdated" ? )

And btw your whole  "Wow, no"   snarky start  further validates my prior claim that you just simply don't like me ( for obvious reasons )  and now look for any chance to snipe.

Forums are funny.

---------

OP @Caleb_Nokama:  Not sure which server you're on but  if you haven't already  be sure to do as @catsi  suggested by  /cjoin GSF  chat channel , since most pilots  are indeed extremely helpful.  If people don't respond immediately, it's just cuz they are mid-fight in a match.

Sure, there's a few bad apples with their own agendas  of course, but otherwise  GSF = best community in the game. ( still )

Information that is from 2014 for GSF has been outdated ever since the 5.5 patch went out. Dakhathkilrathi is correct. I'd suggest Despon's GSF school video's for beginners, having someone Join the ingame chat channel (/cjoin gsf), and to join the GSF discord and ask questions in either the chat channel or discord. People are usually willing to help people that want to learn.

[Nee-Elder]

2 hours ago, Toraak said:

Information that is from 2014 for GSF has been outdated ever since the 5.5 patch went out.

 Fine the 5.5 patch specific parse is fair i guess, but c'mon just innocently outdated is not what  "Wow, ok"  implied.  And you know it.

The thread contains  OTHER  guide links within it  too.   One of which is the same guide you both recommended lol  so what the heck are u even flaming me about anyways?!  Misplaced venom once again.

So yeah there's still some valid info in the thread for the OP who said he played in beta and that's all i meant ( duh ) .  Regardless, there's nothing wrong with my linking that old thread to the OP  as  ONE of many links to peruse.  Nothing.  ( catsi  even said to check the thread too, but for some reason u guys didn't mention at him ...hmm i wonder why lol )

U guys act like i committed a crime and deceived him into some separate  guide for  SW:Squadrons or Battlefront or a random game on  Xbox.

But of course u guys have your reasons.

2 hours ago, Toraak said:

 Dakhathkilrathi is correct.

Nah, he was maybe 1/4th correct.  At best.   The rest was condescending & dismissive & unnecessary,  just for the sake of forum-flaming.

I'm sure he's happy  you always come rushing to defend him though.

2 hours ago, Toraak said:

  Join the ingame chat channel (/cjoin gsf), and to join the GSF discord and ask questions in either the chat channel or discord. People are usually willing to help people that want to learn.

OP already stated he tried  the Discord and it didn't help.  Did you even bother to read his  post before salivating at my quote?

And nice job  echo'ing exactly the same thing  both myself &  catsi  already told the OP about  in-game chat.

Always nice to see you being so supportive/redundant for a change.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: tag team trolls as per usual

[philwil]

Ok, just a FYI

It took me thousands of matches to get decent, because im a slow learner.

So, you arent alone in the "im not getting it" category.

In the satellite (node) matches known as DOM, to contribute, do some kind of damage, or be defensive and sit on a node you own (green).  If you have trouble landing shots, its probably best to be on one of your nodes to defend it against the other team.  Just being on a green node makes you contributing.

In a TDM (where you dont capture nodes, but the idea is to kill as many enemy as you can, you might want to hang back on your spawn side.  Not IN the spawn area, but your half of the map.  You can shoot at people from the enemy team that venture that far.  Use the power ups the blink red (damage over charge known as a DO), yellow (they regen main laser faster than normal, AND it refills your ammo), purple (engine power regen boost and speed boost), and then blue (shield boost).  You use those, and you can do some extra damage, speed in and out of trouble, refill your used ammo, etc.  Plus getting five of those per match gives you legacy cheevs.  So, those are an easy cheev accomplishment.

Unfortunately, you do have to do some damage.  Just dont try so hard.  Get within laser range and just shoot someone.  Do some damage that way, and if you are feeling froggy, try and kill them.  If not, just shoot someone do some damage and retreat for a bit and catch your breath.  Relax a bit and let your abilities regen to use again.

I'd have to say, the GSF discord has a segment that has lots of updated info for GSF.  Plus, not only that it has lots of veterans that would respond to your questions.

As far as builds, there are bad ones.  The good ones, everyone has their build but its premised on some main points.  Adjust it to your liking.  What you like to do.

You might look up GSF School on youtube.  Its got the basics.  But in the past it has helped veterans get better.  Some things you just dont know until you see it.

Good luck and dont despair.

[Ramalina]

@Caleb_Nokama If you're really truly at your wits end with regard to contributing, there are a few ways to cheese your way around that mechanic.

On a scout, equip EMP Field.   It does a trivial amount of damage, but the only requirement is that you be within 4.5, or upgraded 5 km of a valid target.   Get close, press button, boom, you have now contributed, technically.   The down side is that unless your team is facing a bomber heavy situation and you really know what you're doing with EMP Field it's probably an overall handicap, because it's a specialist team support anti-bomber build that is strongly skill dependent to really be worth passing up other ships that are more useful most of the time.  It will cure your non-contribute fairly easily though.

Ion railgun on a gunship, once upgraded 4 tiers has AOE damage options.  You can target turrets at satellites, or bomber deployed mines or drones that have no evasion and don't move, making hitting easy, and the splash AOE can hit any nearby enemies.    This also works with locking EMP missiles on the same types of targets.

Finally the Lingering Effect crew skill will debuff a target, and if anyone hits it, it will apply a 200 damage DoT, which should probably lift the non-contribute timer, though I'm not sure on that because: a) I only ever get non-contributes if I'm actively working on getting them, and b) Lingering Effect is so weak compared to other crew skill that I've never equipped it,   so I don't have any experience with whether it works or not, but in theory it should.

 

More generally in terms of hitting things in GSF:

• Make sure "detailed tool tips" are turned on in your hangar UI so you can see the full stats of each component
• Know the range of the weapons equipped on your ship.  Shooting at things too far away works 0% of the time.
• Know the accuracy falloff with range, at to hit roll of 120% at 500 m may turn into a hit roll of 80% at 4000 m, some weapons are not good at their max ranges.
• Understand tracking penalty.   If the lead indicator of the target ship is not near the center of your firing arc circle, your chances of missing are high.
• Understand accuracy and evasion.  It's basically like accuracy and dodge/parry in the ground game.   Stack accuracy, and wait out evasion buffs on scouts and gunships before shooting at them.
• Choose arc increase and accuracy increase crew passives.
• On strikes choose efficient targeting as the magazine option to speed up missile locks.

[Deadria]

without ever having seen you play i can tell you 2 things that im certain ur not doing or doing well enough...................1) better use of your conversion abilities. If you dont use f4 to turn  ur a dead man to anyone who does. (try an mmo mouse and remap the f keys to ur thumb)....2) and probably the least utilized thing in GSF......Strafing. If you dont straf down and to the right while u turn or are drifting around objects ur a dead man to anyone who does 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz3m8lyjxxw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8YPN8XqCdQ&t=18s

 

both these videos go into detail

Edited March 16 by Deadria

[StrixHiraeth]

Not to be negative, but I think some of us do have a skill ceiling.

Even before I got sick, I made my peace with being as good as I'm going to get.  I'm above average and I am very good at staying alive but not so great at scoring kills.  Sure, I could study and practice and drill.  A larger monitor would probably help a lot.  My ships aren't really built to be competitive (my favorite thing is to fly fast!).

But I'm okay with where I'm at.  Don't beat yourself up and don't give up!

Edited March 18 by StrixHiraeth

[myrrhbear]

Hi Caleb Nokama

First of all, you are very much not alone in finding it very frustrating in GSF.  Also I really appreciate the courage to come forward and start this thread and to say what you did.  I think you described the problem well and I know a ton of people find it the same as you do.  The fact that it's often that a pick up group of new players are thrown in against a premade group of of experts is absurd.  When things are this stacked against you in a game mode that has such a poor tutorial coupled with such a very steep learning curve, and other players take advantage of whatever imbalance they can get away with, to also have the game penalise you for not being able to contribute is just adding insult to injury.  This isn't only an issue of game design, but of player attitudes and choices.

I have a ton of experience with GSF which I enjoyed for years, playing it, recording content of it, writing guides, and even teaching regular classes for it in my guild - and if you'd like I'd be more than happy to get together with you in-game to help you with GSF.  I can help with ship builds, with tips and strategies, and can open practice, safe GSF matches with you to learn some things that I imagine would help you out, without the pressure of getting blown up by pros hungry to add to their kill ratio.  If you're interested in some direct assistance like that, send me a message and we can figure out a time that works.  Same offer goes for anyone else who'd like some help.  

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

As a related aside, what I won't do is group up in actual matches with anyone who's even moderately good at GSF.  If someone is a real beginner and is struggling to get even one kill, I might group up as part of teaching them, but as soon as they gain some proficiency I will go back to queing solo only.  I have no interest in padding my advantage as an expert at this game mode and thereby totally unbalancing a match to the detriment of the average or new player, solely for self interest, or out of entitlement. 

Just because those of us who have gotten really good at GSF can team up to decimate matches, doesn't mean we can't have a conscience and avoid doing that!  I'm going out of my way to point that out here because oddly some of the people in the replies to this thread are the precise people who have been causing a great deal of the misery in GSF for years - the very people who keep killing new players an instant after they spawn in, and causing uncounted matches that end in scores around 50/1000.  (I'm not saying names because while I am against the harmful behaviours, I am not against the people themselves).  Disturbingly these same experts at GSF also tend to be among those who are quick to put the blame on those who stop contributing during matches.  This seems pretty Machiavellian to me.  Instead of doing what they are able to out of good will to seek better balanced matches, they reject the very idea of taking responsibility while actively making GSF miserable for newer players to the point that the new players give up and just sit still hoping for the match to be over as soon as possible, and at the same time these experts lay the blame on those newer people for their inactivity.  Seems so cringe. 

There are so many posts online pleading with the devs to do something about the behaviour of these pro-premades dating to years ago already - and in those posts people do name who is doing this, which is why it's clear it's the same people now for years.  So many people have asked them to stop but they not only refuse, they rationalise their choices and then band together to scornfully mock those who disagree.  Straight up bully behaviour.  They also often invite people to join their crew on discord, presenting this as help, where I think it's more akin to gang recruitment, inducting new players into the bullying club so they too can have fun on the decimating team, and padding their numbers so they can more effectively harass the neighbourhood.  It's too bad that the same people who hated getting bullied allow themselves to turn around and join the bullies and then cause the same misery to others, just as long as they're on the winning team.

The problem is these experts at GSF have argued to themselves and convinced themselves that they are at no fault when they actively destroy the balance of matches by routinely queing as a group and decimating match after match for hours, night after night, dismissing and mocking anyone who pipes up to ask them to stop.  I and many other people have tried having discussions with them, asking them see how this has an avoidable negative effect on the experience of others - being especially bad for new players - and how it overall is therefore also bad for GSF and for SWTOR, making the game miserable to try to learn, driving people away from it, and turning the overall environment into a hostile and callous place.  They invariably respond along the lines of suggesting that if the devs haven't implemented changes to the game that blocks their behaviour then it must be okay, or at the least they say it's the devs fault and not their own fault for taking advantage of what they can get away with.  There's no sense of recalcitrance, or humility, or good sportsmanship, or any personal responsibility to willingly make choices which are considerate and conscientious towards others.  There's no regard for what they could do if they chose to, to help the game be more fun, more inviting, and more fair.  If they can get way with it, it's the devs fault.  They also fall back on the same tired out argument that since it's a multiplayer game it obviously means that joining as a group of pros against new players is correct, as they only single out the multiplayer aspect, rejecting the rest of the context.  GSF is still a multiplayer experience even when an expert player chooses out of consideration to queue solo, allowing the matchmaker system a (poor but better than nothing) chance to maybe somewhat better balance the teams.  There are also many other aspects of SWTOR which we can play in multiplayer without taking advantage of other people and making them miserable, just because we can get away with it.  I was prompted to mention this here because it bothers me seeing those same people recruiting to what is ostensibly their gang of entitled bullies. 

I willingly queue solo, as do many other people who are proficient at GSF, in order to not be one more person doing to others what we'd hate to have done to ourselves.  I enjoy GSF on my random team, and the more balanced the match is, the more I enjoy it.  The challenge of a very close loss in a fair match is by far more fun and something to be proud of than massively imbalanced wins.  There's nothing to be proud about or to take pleasure in when as a coordinated group of experts you destroy a randomised group of new players and make them miserable.

[StrixHiraeth]

12 hours ago, myrrhbear said:

Just because those of us who have gotten really good at GSF can team up to decimate matches, doesn't mean we can't have a conscience and avoid doing that! 

I knew other people understand!  In another thread I asserted that "premades" can contribute to player attrition in GSF.  I don't think grouping needs to be completely avoided, I just think aces shouldn't always fly grouped.  And I'm pretty sure my plea was actually heard because "premades" haven't been showing up all that much lately.  Heard by players like you, maybe.

Also, kudos to OP.  I hadn't thought about it taking courage to put yourself out here like this.  Cheers.

Edited March 20 by StrixHiraeth

[Stradlin]

8 hours ago, StrixHiraeth said:

I knew other people understand!  In another thread I asserted that "premades" can contribute to player attrition in GSF.  I don't think grouping needs to be completely avoided, I just think aces shouldn't always fly grouped.  And I'm pretty sure my plea was actually heard because "premades" haven't been showing up all that much lately.  Heard by players like you, maybe.

Also, kudos to OP.  I hadn't thought about it taking courage to put yourself out here like this.  Cheers.

 

It'd be interesting to see what sort of matches we'd get if they disabled grouping for a month or something. As a trial run. I've had nothing but premade free, great matches of late. ofc, I just came back for a bit from a  few month break and my sample size is quite small..

 

Edited March 20 by Stradlin

[myrrhbear]

7 hours ago, Stradlin said:

 

It'd be interesting to see what sort of matches we'd get if they disabled grouping for a month or something. 

 

I have literally hundreds and hundreds of screenshots of GSF scorecards from matches I've been in over the years, across about 30 characters and different servers and it's crystal clear that when there aren't premades the matches are significantly more likely to be balanced.  Also when premade teams pop in for a few hours at a time it's also obvious from what people say during those times that it makes so many people miserable and that after a few awful matches of that people tend to stop queing if not logging off SWTOR altogether.  When that happens night after night it kills GSF overall for a while.  It's really in the simplest best interest of the devs to disable the group queue button.  Such a simple solution to an issue that is poignantly detrimental to player activity.

 

So yeah, I think it would make excellent sense to disable the group queue button for GSF.  If it were only done as a trial it would have to be for a long enough period if any useful data were to be collected.  Sadly it also wouldn't be impossible for the premade bully folks to try to find a way to still ruin the matches and data during that time, but maybe it would be harder for them to rationalise and excuse their trolling to themselves if they had to go so far out of their way for it. /shrug.  

Also, as recommended by sharpenedstick in the thread "JUST END PREMADES FOR SOLO QUEING", among many, many other people, that alongside a solo-only queue, creating a separate premade vs premade queue would be fine.  What we're all used to is the premade groups scornfully mocking the people that they are completely curbstomping over and over without regard for the fact that there's absolutely no balance to the point that it's basically like Mike Tyson vs some random ten year old kid.  There's no sense of conscience or regard, reacting always to anyone who asks them to stop with the equivalent of QQ, get gud, or saying to stop crying and make their own premade.  Obviously two wrongs make a right??   But if there was a separate queue for groups - premade vs premade only - separate from a solo-only queue - then those who don't want to get trolled would have a safe place to enjoy GSF, while the people who have acted like bullies until now can have what they asked for too - just a more fair match for them to deal with as well. 

[StrixHiraeth]

9 hours ago, myrrhbear said:

I have literally hundreds and hundreds of screenshots of GSF scorecards from matches I've been in over the years, across about 30 characters and different servers and it's crystal clear that when there aren't premades the matches are significantly more likely to be balanced.   

(sic)
Also, as recommended by sharpenedstick in the thread "JUST END PREMADES FOR SOLO QUEING", among many, many other people, that alongside a solo-only queue, creating a separate premade vs premade queue would be fine.  

We should remember that in GSF's heyday there were multiple guilds (and guildless) fielding multiple "premades" most of the time and matches when it was group vs group,, while typically oppressive for low-skill players, were some of the best fun ever had in gaming.

The only reason "premades" (and SD'ers, and etc) have so much effect nowadays is the overall low number of pilots.  I don't think grouping should be disabled.  At its heart, GSF is designed for group play (if you've ever teamed up with a partner where one of you has ion weaps and the other has... other weaps... you know what I mean).  When the population is large, all sorts of behaviors can be accommodated.

But that was then, and this is now.  Now, attracting new pilots and retaining existing pilots is the most important need for GSF.  Perhaps separate queues for solo and grouped pilots is a good idea.  I certainly think GSF should be consolidated somehow, e.g. having a single GSF server, because as it stands people who aren't on Star Forge (or, allegedly, Darth Malgus) don't even have an option to play GSF at all.  I also think there should be incentive-based rewards, separate from any other game system; perhaps pilots get tech frags for medals or something.  I also think CC costs for cosmetics should be lowered and/or unlocks should be legacy/account-wide.  Bug fix for blaster upgrade deselection.

Those are the best ideas I've heard/had for increasing or maintaining pilot population.  ...I'd say the matchmaker needs work but it has been far more broken than this in the past (anyone remember when having a lot of ship or fleet requisition meant being skipped by most queue pops?).  Some things just shouldn't be messed with anymore.

Some day when I'm up to it I hope to capitalize on grouping to orchestrate other "modes" in GSF -- competitions other than TDM and domination.  Things like races, 1v1's/2v2's, car shows in space, etc (these things used to happen occasionally back in the heyday).  One competition mode I have in mind would be seeing how long a lone pilot can survive against a premade of 2-4 aces.  Plenty of other ideas too.  Some day!