Rip pvp for another 6 months

[merovejec]

On 10/18/2023 at 9:20 PM, Prapcaster said:

I unsubbed and uninstalled. I suggest you all do too. There's nothing left for pvpers in this game just play another game. You'll never love this game like you did at it's peak so just have fun in games where the devs actually try.

yes, all of you please unsub llike this gentlemen, the game will be much better.

[krackcommando]

probably cost less to buy achievements. 

or...would that increase the cost because fewer ppl capable to carry you? hm. a paradox. two docs next to each other. standing in a row. a pair of docs.

[Lord_Malganus]

I just finished playing WZ's for a while tonight and the Q was quickly popping. The fleet pvp area was really busy even for a Friday night. The main topic in chat was about getting ready for the LI and gear ilvl increases coming in 7.4

There was A LOT of AFK going on in game though and many were boasting how AFK is the easy way to upgrade LI's and gear via the PvP weekly tech frag rewards.

PvP design is supporting this and they know it.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Lord_Malganus said:

There was A LOT of AFK going on in game though and many were boasting how AFK is the easy way to upgrade LI's and gear via the PvP weekly tech frag rewards.

PvP design is supporting this and they know it.

And this is the problem & you’re right, the devs know it & just don’t care that their design choices are killing PvP 

[Lord_Malganus]

14 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

And this is the problem & you’re right, the devs know it & just don’t care that their design choices are killing PvP 

After some thought, it's actually a brilliant design to enforce and support their time proven style of development. The reason their master design works is the reality based fact that PvP has always incorporated PvE centric elements, because it was never truly about PvP play or design.

The recent addition of playing stealth/stuck and AFK allows PvE players to complete the PvP weekly x 3 = 6000 Tech Frags for doing nothing. They know Pve players know that is much more productive than doing H2's or pubbing FP's all day. They figured out a way to keep the PvE players needed to keep the PvP shared Q of imbalanced mismatches alive and popping.

Like Crafting and GSF, they can now ignore PvP, Pre-mades get to keep their easy PvP wins, medals and kills and all the stealth/stuck and AFK PvE players get easy PvP daily/weekly Tech Frag rewards. It's a win, win, win!

As an added bonus, by ignoring them and deleting Ranked, they alienated many of the long time competive PvP players so they left the game.

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, Lord_Malganus said:

it's actually a brilliant design to enforce and support their time proven style of development.

You mean like driving dedicated players from the game so we stop complaining about their poor game design features? 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Lord_Malganus]

14 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

You mean like driving dedicated players from the game so we stop complaining about their poor game design features? 

By their logic and reasoning, yes. I truly think they believe that.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[merovejec]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:24 PM, krackcommando said:

probably cost less to buy achievements. 

or...would that increase the cost because fewer ppl capable to carry you? hm. a paradox. two docs next to each other. standing in a row. a pair of docs.

what pvp achievements can you buy?

[merovejec]

23 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

And this is the problem & you’re right, the devs know it & just don’t care that their design choices are killing PvP 

They tried solving this with losses not giving points toward the weekly but that must have been bad since they reverted the change.

[krackcommando]

5 hours ago, merovejec said:

They tried solving this with losses not giving points toward the weekly but that must have been bad since they reverted the change.

denying progress toward daily/weekly quests with losses was a really draconian thing to do. but that was before pvp seasons. now those quests have a lot more riding on them than just completing a daily/weekly. and now there's an actual justification/reason to only award progress for wins. imo ofc.

[TrixxieTriss]

6 hours ago, krackcommando said:

denying progress toward daily/weekly quests with losses was a really draconian thing to do. but that was before pvp seasons. now those quests have a lot more riding on them than just completing a daily/weekly. and now there's an actual justification/reason to only award progress for wins. imo ofc.

I always thought it was too draconian too. But I do understand why they did it because without incentives, people just AFK their way through to get rewards for doing nothing. 

I did push hard for them to adjust the win:loss ratio to allow losses to count. But I never thought it should have been made as easy as it is now. 

At the moment, it is way too easy to just AFK & get the rewards. Which only encourages people to AFK. I don’t want them to make it easier or to go back to the draconian wins only system. But something needs to be done to make people try to win instead of AFKing.

I think they should make the win:loss ratio much higher to finish the dailies/weeklies. And the only way to do that is do something unpopular like increase the required wins:losses to finish the weekly. 

But to do that, they also need to make it fair for solo players or small premade groups to be able to compete & complete the missions too.

So the first thing they need to do is reduce the premade sizes back to 4 man in WZ & cap it at 2 man in Arena. Other wise the proposed changes would drive more solo & small premade players from the game. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[krackcommando]

28 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I always thought it was too draconian too. But I do understand why they did it because without incentives, people just AFK their way through to get rewards for doing nothing. 

I did push hard for them to adjust the win:loss ratio to allow losses to count. But I never thought it should have been made as easy as it is now. 

At the moment, it is way too easy to just AFK & get the rewards. Which only encourages people to AFK. I don’t want them to make it easier or to go back to the draconian wins only system. But something needs to be done to make people try to win instead of AFKing.

I think they should make the win:loss ratio much higher to finish the dailies/weeklies. And the only way to do that is do something unpopular like increase the required wins:losses to finish the weekly.

I mostly disagree...at least on the details. prior to 7.2 (way prior. I think they fixed it in the end of the 6.x era?), you only got credit for daily and weekly quests with wins. that was absurd. they also reset the quests every day/week (and still do) which is also absurd. like what difference does it make if a person takes 2 weeks to complete 1 weekly? but anyway.... the reason that wins policy was overly harsh was because they were literally just daily/weekly quests. there was no great reward at the end of the tunnel. certainly nothing worth PvPing if you didn't want to PvP.

But with 7.2, pvp seasons brings real value to completing those weeklies. Now players who have no interest in playing the game mode are in the matches, and b/c you can grind out (especially WZ) pvp quests while literally AFKing or actively trolling (sabotaging), the only thing you can do is make wining the deciding factor. literally everything else just results in players working against their team (like camping the held node for defender points or grabbing orbs instead of answering calls to nodes, etc.). the fact of the matter is you're still going to be carried (even in the present conditions of pvp) regardless of how bad you are (as long as you don't premade with similarly bad players).

which leads me to...

37 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

But to do that, they also need to make it fair for solo players or small premade groups to be able to compete & complete the missions too.

So the first thing they need to do is reduce the premade sizes back to 4 man in WZ & cap it at 2 man in Arena. Other wise the proposed changes would drive more solo & small premade players from the game.

opening matches up to full grp premades was always absurd. no idea what BW was actually thinking, but it's obnoxious. there aren't many players, even really good ones, who think allowing full teams was a good idea. iunno. BW be BW. now they're full on BS? it is what it is. they gave little or no explanation for the change in the first place.

personally, I would rather things went back to wins only for advancing the quests regardless of changing the group requirements simply because the players trolling the queue by "AFKing" is far more common/offensive, in my experience, than running into overlarge premades who bully the queue (it happens, but not nearly as much as the other). I would also eliminate any sort of rewards for "medals." attacker/defender points is a stupid concept that just encourages jack wagons to act in their own self interest rather than the team. /shrug

[Lord_Malganus]

Mixing PvP and PvE together was a very bad decision from the start and continued bad hybrid design decisions keep leading back to the unacceptable mess that exists now.

 

[SoyElSenado]

They said balance changes etc. will be in the patch notes and that PvP seasons run on a predetermined schedule, so it's not a big deal that they didn't talk about balance/class changes. The problem is that they mentioned nothing about the systematic issues with PvP. They need to add some kind of ranking/competitive incentive to the system in order to keep it fun. Idk why it's so hard to see that the current system sucks for everybody from competitive players down to casual people who just queue up for a cosmetic or whatever. I'm relatively new to SWTOR pvp (not to MMO pvp) and I can see why they decided to remove the old ranked system. The top 3 thing in particular looked like it was a massive pain in the ass for them to manage and it invites all kinds of trouble, especially with the 7.0 changes.

There are many options for compromise systems that reward good players and still require very little work on their end. Need to keep people interested and incentivized. Whether that's a % based ladder system (more complex to manage), rankings/awards based on win to loss ratio beyond the stupid battle record menu (very little effort to manage), or something in between, it would tremendously improve for everybody.

Edited October 23, 2023 by SoyElSenado

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

I mostly disagree...at least on the details. prior to 7.2 (way prior. I think they fixed it in the end of the 6.x era?), you only got credit for daily and weekly quests with wins. that was absurd. they also reset the quests every day/week (and still do) which is also absurd. like what difference does it make if a person takes 2 weeks to complete 1 weekly? but anyway.... the reason that wins policy was overly harsh was because they were literally just daily/weekly quests. there was no great reward at the end of the tunnel. certainly nothing worth PvPing if you didn't want to PvP.

But with 7.2, pvp seasons brings real value to completing those weeklies. Now players who have no interest in playing the game mode are in the matches, and b/c you can grind out (especially WZ) pvp quests while literally AFKing or actively trolling (sabotaging), the only thing you can do is make wining the deciding factor. literally everything else just results in players working against their team (like camping the held node for defender points or grabbing orbs instead of answering calls to nodes, etc.). the fact of the matter is you're still going to be carried (even in the present conditions of pvp) regardless of how bad you are (as long as you don't premade with similarly bad players).

which leads me to...

opening matches up to full grp premades was always absurd. no idea what BW was actually thinking, but it's obnoxious. there aren't many players, even really good ones, who think allowing full teams was a good idea. iunno. BW be BW. now they're full on BS? it is what it is. they gave little or no explanation for the change in the first place.

personally, I would rather things went back to wins only for advancing the quests regardless of changing the group requirements simply because the players trolling the queue by "AFKing" is far more common/offensive, in my experience, than running into overlarge premades who bully the queue (it happens, but not nearly as much as the other). I would also eliminate any sort of rewards for "medals." attacker/defender points is a stupid concept that just encourages jack wagons to act in their own self interest rather than the team. /shrug

You say you mostly disagree with my points & then go on to agree with 75% of what I said 🤷🏻‍♀️.

The only thing we really disagree on is how to reduce AFK rewards farmers by going back to winning only as a way to finish the daily/weekly rewards. 

The only other thing I disagree with, is your take on medals for rewards. I’ve always advocated medals being tied more to rewards.
But I do agree that the current medals & systems don’t encourage people to try to win as a team.

For the medal system to do its job properly, they really need to do a lot more reworking on the medal system that ties it more to playing to win as a team & discourages damagefarmers/troll/selfish play. Then people on the losing team who really contribute & try hard, can possibly get higher rewards than those on the winning team who might AFK or not contribute to the win. 

Sadly, until the devs recognise that their current PvP design is faulty, PvP will continue to get worse & drive away participation. 

[TrixxieTriss]

31 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

They said balance changes etc. will be in the patch notes 

Actually I’ve relistened to what they said a couple of times & that’s not exactly what they said.
They said if there are any balance changes for PvP in the future, they will be in the patch notes. 
People are misinterpreting what that means. So I wouldn’t take for granted that there will be any balance changes at all in 7.4 or there will be any other changes either. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[SoyElSenado]

17 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Actually I’ve relistened to what they said a couple of times & that’s not exactly what they said.
They said if there are any balance changes for PvP in the future, they will be in the patch notes. 
People are misinterpreting what that means. So I wouldn’t take for granted that there will be any balance changes at all in 7.4 or there will be any other changes either. 

Fair enough, I didn't listen too closely. I understood what they said to mean that they would be announcing class changes etc. (for PvE and PvP) closer to the actual patch. I'm sure there will be at least "token" changes to things even if it has nothing to do with player feedback or what needs to actually be rebalanced, gotta fill up those notes somehow. I do stand by my point that balance issues are pretty much irrelevant when there's no real incentive to try in PvP lol

Edited October 23, 2023 by SoyElSenado

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, SoyElSenado said:

do stand by my point that balance issues are pretty much irrelevant when there's no real incentive to try in PvP lol

100% agree

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

ou say you mostly disagree with my points & then go on to agree with 75% of what I said

the solution I disagree on. 100% against doing anything but counting wins. 😎

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

the solution I disagree on. 100% against doing anything but counting wins. 😎

Fair enough 👍

[black_pyros]

The solution for AFK players is to stop giving participation rewards and it doesn't have to be as harsh as going back to win-only requirement. Victory have to still give more rewards than a defeat but they should put bigger emphasis on contribution by reworking medals/objectives system even further to ensure AFK/non-contributors get nothing no matter if they win or lose and real contributors get good rewards no matter if they are an unlucky solo players in a defeated team versus coordinated premades.

[merovejec]

16 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

it is way too easy to just AFK & get the rewards.

What rewards are we talking about here? I mean before you got mats from ranked but what do you mean now? PVP rewards with stuff for PVP mostly.

 

15 hours ago, krackcommando said:

But with 7.2, pvp seasons brings real value to completing those weeklies. Now players who have no interest in playing the game mode are in the matches, and b/c you can grind out (especially WZ) pvp quests while literally AFKing or actively trolling (sabotaging), the only thing you can do is make wining the deciding factor.

No the only thing you can do is leave PVP out of seasons

14 hours ago, Lord_Malganus said:

Mixing PvP and PvE together was a very bad decision from the start and continued bad hybrid design decisions keep leading back to the unacceptable mess that exists now.

 

There is very little interaction now.

The main thing you get out of PVP now are the Fragments, but you can get a lot more and faster by doing GSF, so there isnt much incentive to go PVP for a person that doesnt want to PVP.

Edited October 23, 2023 by merovejec

[krackcommando]

28 minutes ago, merovejec said:

No the only thing you can do is leave PVP out of seasons

pvp needs seasons. it needs regular recurring events that last ~3 months with only 2-3 weeks between. rated needed this. regs need this. the concept of having seasonal pvp is a very good one (regardless of the existence of rated).

[Lord_Malganus]

46 minutes ago, merovejec said:

There is very little interaction now.

 

Yeah...everyone knows. 😄

Edited October 23, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[krackcommando]

7 hours ago, black_pyros said:

The solution for AFK players is to stop giving participation rewards and it doesn't have to be as harsh as going back to win-only requirement. Victory have to still give more rewards than a defeat but they should put bigger emphasis on contribution by reworking medals/objectives system even further to ensure AFK/non-contributors get nothing no matter if they win or lose and real contributors get good rewards no matter if they are an unlucky solo players in a defeated team versus coordinated premades.

I don't think this is at all possible. it's a nice thing. like "end racism" or something. but no amount of legislation (rules changes) is going to ensure the AFKs get nothing in these medals systems. we've already seen the outcry when medal requirements were tightened. even when the outcry was understandable, giving into it only made it easier for ppl to "not contribute" while getting credit toward the seasonal objectives. /shrug