A letter to the Devs: Please, Stop Dumbing the game down

[Quantum]

1 hour ago, Otowi said:

Can't say that I'm shocked at the player decline. 

Some of the changes the devs have made over the years have been... questionable to say the least. Some changes like being able to play the story lines with a new spec was a good one, but then they had to muck about with the skill trees, and in some cases took the pruning a bit too far in the wrong direction.

But one of the main things for me is the constant lack of communication from the devs. If the Force is with us, we get some info, but usually it's not.

They need to learn that communication and transparency is extremely important for the player base to start trusting them again.

One example is when @KeithKanneg talked about a great vision for the game, but then fails to follow through with telling us a bit more in detail about that vision. We do not need to know about the story lines, I get that they want to keep that under wraps, but some general info would be great. 

Not to mention what they promised would be a great 10 year anniversary celebration, and that turned out to be a lot of hot air, with very little to show for it, which left many long term players dissapointed, wanting for more.

I've been playing MMO's for 24 years now, I've done contract work for a game studio.  For a short while I had an insight, a window into the other side of this equation.  I can tell you, the majority of the complaints I see leveled here and elsewhere on these forums stem from a lack of understanding on what is and isn't possible on the developer's side, much of which they simply cannot disclose for various reasons, chief among them being if they did even more negativities would result.  Good MMOs player base size typically peaks in 5-7 years, even WOW's peak, the standard every other game is compared to, was 6 years after it launched.  Every title I've ever played long term has reached a point where the same complaints are leveled for the same reasons.  I expect nothing different from SWTOR, simply because the way the player base is handling the expected evolution of the game in the same manner.  Eventually like most long running games, a point of equilibrium will be reached or the decision to pull the plug will be made.  That is just how the lifecycle of an MMO works.  What I can tell you is this.  Nothing is going to draw players back in mass, they've moved on for one reason or another to either other games, or other interests besides games.  You may see peaks and valleys around major updates or publishes but slowly but surely the player base is going to drop in numbers until that core of diehard fanatics is all that remains, or the servers go dark.  

You bring up lack of communication, what exactly do you want.  Do you want them to daily/weekly/monthly update you on upcoming content which isn't finalized?  I can pretty much guarantee whenever they put out patch notes it is done shortly after the content of the patch is deemed ready for publish.  Have you ever thought that they don't go into detail about upcoming content, because until right before it is released, they simply don't know what is and isn't going to make it live?  For the same reason they have to limit transparency, it would be far worse if they kept promising things, and showing things that later they would have to back track on for some reason.  It's a balancing act, trying to decide what can and can't be put out there and unfortunately if you say too much and it doesn't pan out the results are disproportionately negative, as compared to when you say too little and actually put out a solid publish.

People love to yell about the economy, the recent "taxes" on trade and mail are one of the few things they can actually do to try and address it yet seems to be universally disliked.  What should they have done?  Stripped credits from loot drops, make junk loot unsaleable to NPCs, wipe everyone's credit balance and start over?  Currency in MMO's is an unlimited resource, the game keeps generating more, redistribution of infinity is still infinity.  All they can do is try to slow the accumulation of credits; they're never going to be able to "deflate" the economy, at least by any means that won't cause a mass exodus of players.  

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Quantum

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

Reads numbers .. shakes head negatively in disbelief.  Reads a second time (just to make sure).

GOOD GRIEF !!!  I don't care if the numbers were TWICE that!  OUCH!!

.... [/shrugs] ...

Oh well!  I guess that explains a few things.  

... still stunned!

🤦‍♂️

 

I’ve been tracking those numbers well before 7.0 released & it’s why I’ve been raising the alarm bells for 18+ months when BW make stupid development choices.

Because just about all of the population drops correspond with poor development choices BioWare has made. Especially those that have gone against player feedback when they asked for it.

Any sane developer might consider negative player feedback as warning & change course, but not BW. They’ll go full steam ahead in the opposite direction & double down. It’s the main reason why the game keeps losing players. 

[Otowi]

I did say that some more info in general about where the game is headed would be good, but that I do understand that they can't talk about upcoming story for the game. 

There's no denying that the devs are not known to communicate more than they do, which is not much, and this has been the case for years. What is wanted from the playerbase is some discussions about certain changes, and why the devs feel that said changes are needed. Then allow us, the players to maybe have some input into this, as we might see things differently than the devs do. That way the playerbase would feel that they had some input, and that changes might be made given the player input.

 

[felleto]

1 minute ago, Otowi said:

I did say that some more info in general about where the game is headed would be good, but that I do understand that they can't talk about upcoming story for the game. 

There's no denying that the devs are not known to communicate more than they do, which is not much, and this has been the case for years. What is wanted from the playerbase is some discussions about certain changes, and why the devs feel that said changes are needed. Then allow us, the players to maybe have some input into this, as we might see things differently than the devs do. That way the playerbase would feel that they had some input, and that changes might be made given the player input.

 

Hey I would settle for some livrestreams of devs playing the game

 

46 minutes ago, Quantum said:

I've been playing MMO's for 24 years now, I've done contract work for a game studio.  For a short while I had an insight, a window into the other side of this equation.  I can tell you, the majority of the complaints I see leveled here and elsewhere on these forums stem from a lack of understanding on what is and isn't possible on the developer's side, much of which they simply cannot disclose for various reasons, chief among them being if they did even more negativities would result.  Good MMOs player base size typically peaks in 5-7 years, even WOW's peak, the standard every other game is compared to, was 6 years after it launched.  Every title I've ever played long term has reached a point where the same complaints are leveled for the same reasons.  I expect nothing different from SWTOR, simply because the way the player base is handling the expected evolution of the game in the same manner.  Eventually like most long running games, a point of equilibrium will be reached or the decision to pull the plug will be made.  That is just how the lifecycle of an MMO works.  What I can tell you is this.  Nothing is going to draw players back in mass, they've moved on for one reason or another to either other games, or other interests besides games.  You may see peaks and valleys around major updates or publishes but slowly but surely the player base is going to drop in numbers until that core of diehard fanatics is all that remains, or the servers go dark.  

You bring up lack of communication, what exactly do you want.  Do you want them to daily/weekly/monthly update you on upcoming content which isn't finalized?  I can pretty much guarantee whenever they put out patch notes it is done shortly after the content of the patch is deemed ready for publish.  Have you ever thought that they don't go into detail about upcoming content, because until right before it is released, they simply don't know what is and isn't going to make it live?  For the same reason they have to limit transparency, it would be far worse if they kept promising things, and showing things that later they would have to back track on for some reason.  It's a balancing act, trying to decide what can and can't be put out there and unfortunately if you say too much and it doesn't pan out the results are disproportionately negative, as compared to when you say too little and actually put out a solid publish.

People love to yell about the economy, the recent "taxes" on trade and mail are one of the few things they can actually do to try and address it yet seems to be universally disliked.  What should they have done?  Stripped credits from loot drops, make junk loot unsaleable to NPCs, wipe everyone's credit balance and start over?  Currency in MMO's is an unlimited resource, the game keeps generating more, redistribution of infinity is still infinity.  All they can do is try to slow the accumulation of credits; they're never going to be able to "deflate" the economy, at least by any means that won't cause a mass exodus of players.  

 

(my opinion please) I would love the devs to get more "engaged" (I think that would be word). Host some in game events: Raiding with the devs, questing and chillaxing, getting some other content creators like swtorista (it was the first that came to mind) and others to participate in live streams and ask questions. Make us feel like a community, like they are players of their own game like us.

This point in time the devs seem like these unreachable overlords that sometimes bless us with scraps of their time. People say the game is dead because it looks dead.
 

[Char_Ell]

5 minutes ago, Otowi said:

There's no denying that the devs are not known to communicate more than they do, which is not much, and this has been the case for years. What is wanted from the playerbase is some discussions about certain changes, and why the devs feel that said changes are needed. Then allow us, the players to maybe have some input into this, as we might see things differently than the devs do. That way the playerbase would feel that they had some input, and that changes might be made given the player input.

As I suspected; unrealistic expectations.  That isn't how it works on these forums.  People that participate on the forums here overwhelmingly criticize the devs when the devs don't make changes to match whatever said forum participants want.  Now you think the devs should get on and explain why they made certain changes so they can get blasted by the the people that didn't like those changes?  People that will tell the devs they are terrible and suck because the devs did not make the changes that they wanted.  I can totally understand why the devs don't do that.  If I started blasting you and questioning you for everything you did on these forums I can imagine you would not like that.

What you and plenty of others that participate in these forums essentially want is the ability to decide what features get worked on and what changes get made to the game.  That isn't going to happen.  Sure, we can voice all our feedback here in the forums and the devs can see that feedback and occasionally do what forum posters want (e.g. changing the original plan to charge credits for traveling to a player's stronghold and keeping the status quo for travel to strongholds).  Ultimately though they are the ones making the decisions with some criteria that we as players are not aware of.   Players don't get to make development decisions.  Players get to decide whether to play or not play, pay or not pay, and to provide feedback on the forums or not.  Players will have less frustration if they understand their role and stop trying to play armchair developer.

[Otowi]

18 minutes ago, Char_Ell said:

As I suspected; unrealistic expectations.  That isn't how it works on these forums.  People that participate on the forums here overwhelmingly criticize the devs when the devs don't make changes to match whatever said forum participants want.  Now you think the devs should get on and explain why they made certain changes so they can get blasted by the the people that didn't like those changes?  People that will tell the devs they are terrible and suck because the devs did not make the changes that they wanted.  I can totally understand why the devs don't do that.  If I started blasting you and questioning you for everything you did on these forums I can imagine you would not like that.

What you and plenty of others that participate in these forums essentially want is the ability to decide what features get worked on and what changes get made to the game.  That isn't going to happen.  Sure, we can voice all our feedback here in the forums and the devs can see that feedback and occasionally do what forum posters want (e.g. changing the original plan to charge credits for traveling to a player's stronghold and keeping the status quo for travel to strongholds).  Ultimately though they are the ones making the decisions with some criteria that we as players are not aware of.   Players don't get to make development decisions.  Players get to decide whether to play or not play, pay or not pay, and to provide feedback on the forums or not.  Players will have less frustration if they understand their role and stop trying to play armchair developer.

Now listen here, buddy. I never said that I or any other player want to decide what gets developed or not. Just that we want some sort of way to communicate with the devs on certain matters. Like maybe the devs could say: "Hey, we want to run this by you guys before we make any drastic changes, here is what we have planned for class changes: Do you like it? Yes? No? If not what do you think can be changed whithin reason...."

Or something like that. Not everything can be run by the players, that much I understand. An MMO is a huge beast afterall, but something like I wrote above might be a good way to garner some goodwill. Not saying they should do this all the time, but rather every now and again to understand how the players might go about a change, and perhaps take it into consideration...

[TrixxieTriss]

53 minutes ago, Char_Ell said:

Ultimately though they are the ones making the decisions

Yep, and we can see how well the population responds when they double down on stupid design decisions.

This is especially true when they “ASK” for player feed back and ignore it completely.

It has been one of swtor’s biggest development issues over the years. They announce something or put it on the PTS & specifically ask players to test and provide said feed back. Then totally ignore it.

That’s why most of us who used to test for them, have stopped. Because the devs ignore most bug reports, balancing reports & outright ignore negative reports on new or changed features that players absolutely hate.

And I’m not just saying a few people reported & whined about something. I’m saying many players tested (including their own influencers), then discussed the features or bugs & wrote detailed reports on the issues. Then offered solutions or options. All of which are categorically ignored by the devs. And then they launch the changes & we ultimately end up with less players than before the release.

What really pisses people off is usually the suggested fix would be a minor issue if done early. But the devs can’t ever admit to a mistake, so they ignore it or double down. A prime example of this is the 8 man pre-made situation in PvP seasons. That could have been rectified by season 2. But instead of admitting it was a mistake, they have ignored it & it’s contributed to making PvP seasons a failure by season 3.

Swtor has lost more dedicated players because of the devs poor development choices & stubbornness to admit mistakes & rectify them, than any other issue. 

Swtor will go down as one of the biggest lost potential & mismanagement of any game with the most recognisable IP in history. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Char_Ell]

12 minutes ago, Otowi said:

Now listen here, buddy. I never said that I or any other player want to decide what gets developed or not.

I apologize if I lumped you in with a category of forum participants to which you do not belong.  Based on what I've observed in the past the kind of feedback loop you're seeking has had a lot of negativity associated with it.  My sense is the devs really don't want to engage with players any more than they feel they have to because there is a lot of negativity on these forums right now.  And I want to be clear that I think the devs have made many decisions that have resulted in a poor outcomes.  It's just the way online game development goes sometimes.

[Otowi]

13 minutes ago, Char_Ell said:

I apologize if I lumped you in with a category of forum participants to which you do not belong.  Based on what I've observed in the past the kind of feedback loop you're seeking has had a lot of negativity associated with it.  My sense is the devs really don't want to engage with players any more than they feel they have to because there is a lot of negativity on these forums right now.  And I want to be clear that I think the devs have made many decisions that have resulted in a poor outcomes.  It's just the way online game development goes sometimes.

On that we can agree. I know it can't be easy being developers making a change you think will be good for the game, and it ends up being a major dumpster fire. Been there done that with another online game, not an MMO, but there you go, where some dev changes has been utter trash that should never have been thought of.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Otowi

[sharpenedstick]

There's nothing wrong with criticizing devs for not making changes "to match whatever said forum participants want."

This game is a PRODUCT. We are CUSTOMERS. Despite what some of you think, the devs aren't doing us a favor by running this game. We are doing them a favor by playing it.

We have every right to voice our preferences regarding content and the game's direction, and to express disappointment with the state of the product we pay for.

In any other industry, this is patently obvious to both producer and consumer. Only in gaming do Caballero Blancos not seem to understand this.

Imagine if Coke replaced their formula with a new canine excrement flavor. Then, they declined to make any statement other than housekeeping shipping notifications about it. Who then would say it's wrong to complain about the change? Who then would question why anyone who enjoyed Coke would want information regarding the change, whether the change is permanent, what's coming in Coke's future, etc?

Some of you need to get the devs off the pedestal you put them on. They are providing a service. We are customers. They dismiss their customers at their own peril.

Edited August 25, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[OlBuzzard]

8 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Yep, and we can see how well the population responds when they double down on stupid design decisions.

This is especially true when they “ASK” for player feed back and ignore it completely.

It has been one of swtor’s biggest development issues over the years. They announce something or put it on the PTS & specifically ask players to test and provide said feed back. Then totally ignore it.

That’s why most of us who used to test for them, have stopped. Because the devs ignore most bug reports, balancing reports & outright ignore negative reports on new or changed features that players absolutely hate.

And I’m not just saying a few people reported & whined about something. I’m saying many players tested (including their own influencers), then discussed the features or bugs & wrote detailed reports on the issues. Then offered solutions or options. All of which are categorically ignored by the devs. And then they launch the changes & we ultimately end up with less players than before the release.

What really pisses people off is usually the suggested fix would be a minor issue if done early. But the devs can’t ever admit to a mistake, so they ignore it or double down. A prime example of this is the 8 man pre-made situation in PvP seasons. That could have been rectified by season 2. But instead of admitting it was a mistake, they have ignored it & it’s contributed to making PvP seasons a failure by season 3.

Swtor has lost more dedicated players because of the devs poor development choices & stubbornness to admit mistakes & rectify them, than any other issue. 

Swtor will go down as one of the biggest lost potential & mismanagement of any game with the most recognisable IP in history. 

Quite honestly several have provided specific numbers of decline for some time now.  I simply had not realized that it had reached a level where there are fewer than 10K active players.  That had to trigger a lot of what we have seen with the Broadsword transfer.

IMO there are only a few real matters of concern.  Those concerns are not reflected in my own personal objectives on how to develop SWTOR aside from simply looking at how many areas of the game have simply fallen by the wayside.  Those areas include:
** PvP development (which from all indications have taken a notable turn for the worse for some time now and shows no indication of changing.  
** The 8 class structure.  Due to the obvious lack of resources actually utilized in the game (cutting corners often) ...  IMO it is highly unlikely that we will see them return.  IIRC ... that was one of the Hallmark calling cards of SWTOR.  
** Companions ...  They're gone.  Sure we have them.  And the GS series provided a source of new ones that appeared briefly in the GS story line .. but then they are pretty much gone after that (from an interactive standpoint of view).
** Regular content releases.  To me the release of "Showdown on Ruhnuk" was (and still is) a good chapter.  I still visit there and participate in the dailies.  "Old Wounds" ... while it has it moments ..  was very short and in a very confined area.  The story to me was fine.  (Not excellent ... but fine).
** Ignoring community feedback.  I don't expect the team to write the story the way I would.  I just don't.  Neither do I expect them to set just one level of difficulty to MY specifications.  That is simply VERY unrealistic.  There is something to be said, however, for listening to requested feedback particularly when there are overwhelming pleas ... and objections.  The calamity of 7.0 is pretty much proof of what we are saying.

IMO these are the real matters of concerns.  As I have pointed out before... the development team members are intelligent enough to understand exactly what is taking place.  I certainly don't expect them to always agree with me (ESPECIALLY ME!).

I still try to hold them in high regard ... but for the life of me I just don't understand a number of the decisions that have been made lately.

And the numbers???  As I mentioned earlier .. if the number of players left were even twice that of what we are seeing right now .. a 3300 drop would STILL be alarming.

The developers need to simply build the game the way that they want to (Like it or not).  Then it will either stand on it's own merits or it will fall flat for the same reason.  That's not being negative .. or cruel.  It's simply a fact.

[Char_Ell]

47 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Yep, and we can see how well the population responds when they double down on stupid design decisions.

This is especially true when they “ASK” for player feed back and ignore it completely.

<snip>

Swtor has lost more dedicated players because of the devs poor development choices & stubbornness to admit mistakes & rectify them, than any other issue. 

Swtor will go down as one of the biggest lost potential & mismanagement of any game with the most recognisable IP in history. 

So all the time and effort you've put into more than 10,000 forum posts to steer the devs in the direction you want them to go has gone to waste?  The devs never once did anything you told them they needed to do?

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, Char_Ell said:

So all the time and effort you've put into more than 10,000 forum posts to steer the devs in the direction you want them to go has gone to waste?  The devs never once did anything you told them they needed to do?

I could literally count on one hand the amount of times the Devs have changed course & adjusted something because of what I posted. And I’m not the only one either. There are people who tested way more than I did & provided detailed feed back using actual numbers & BW still ignored us. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[OlBuzzard]

2 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I could literally count on one hand the amount of times the Devs have changed course & adjusted something because of what I posted. And I’m not the only one either. There are people who tested way more than I did & provided detailed feed back using actual numbers & BW still ignored us. 

I remember back ages ago ... as a result of the PTS.  It was one of those few occasions where I participated as well (Something that I took part in a couple of occasions.  And frankly I quit wasting my time.) ...  In any case:

Someone took the time to track and provide information in the form an extensive spreadsheet.  (Something that I clearly understood ... and with my RL background REALLY appreciated).  IIRC ... the subject matter was crafting.  It demonstrated the insane number of hours required to complete (whatever that task was).  Frankly I don't remember the details.  It's been a while back and frankly I'm having a senior moment ...  (I hate getting old).  Their information was also collaborated by other players.  

In spite of the obvious amount of time and effort that went into the spreadsheet analysis (simply providing hard numbers to what a number of other people were already saying) .. it was completely ignored, and the release proceeded as expected.  Crafting has not been the same since that time.  That much I do remember clearly. 

It should be noted that this is one of the reasons that I have come to the conclusion that the team might just as well just do whatever turns them on.  That's their intent to begin with.  

As I've said before ... how we got to this point is not so important as to take a good hard look at what needs to be done to grow the game once again.  And .. if there is no intention to do so ... then that will also be evident as well.  Not everything will happen over night.  It just won't.  It WILL take time.. patience ... and a drive with determination to start moving SWTOR toward the potential that it obviously still has.

[Spikanor]

11 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Any sane developer might consider negative player feedback as warning & change course, but not BW. They’ll go full steam ahead in the opposite direction & double down. It’s the main reason why the game keeps losing players. 

so far i know only developers that care about there community and game are listing to there community feedback all is it negative there listing and do something with it.

but there are a lot that give no damm about there community at all and i can count a lot of game's that have suffer by that type of developers and the game has hurt big time from it by the poor choose from that type of developers and most almost 99% of the time's the game become's death by the developers fault for not listing at all.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Spikanor

[ZUHFB]

10 hours ago, Char_Ell said:

I apologize if I lumped you in with a category of forum participants to which you do not belong.  Based on what I've observed in the past the kind of feedback loop you're seeking has had a lot of negativity associated with it.  My sense is the devs really don't want to engage with players any more than they feel they have to because there is a lot of negativity on these forums right now.  And I want to be clear that I think the devs have made many decisions that have resulted in a poor outcomes.  It's just the way online game development goes sometimes.

Do you realize how condescending this sounds?

I as a player want MY interests to be heard and this is what I use the forums for, I do not care - nor should I - how this affects the greater game. Its not my choice to make, but it is also allowed to state my honest opinion on what I would like to see.

[ZUHFB]

7 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I could literally count on one hand the amount of times the Devs have changed course & adjusted something because of what I posted. And I’m not the only one either. There are people who tested way more than I did & provided detailed feed back using actual numbers & BW still ignored us. 

Its not only that, but they promised and promised and what did they deliver? Nothing. Literally nothing.

10 Year Celebration? Who remembers that? The entire community pretty much got scammed.

R-4 MM? Get banned in twitch chat first of all, promised twice, delivered nothing.

S14 rewards? Announced TWICE but each time different titles because they forgot their own promise of posting rewards at the start of the season instead of at the end, but then did it at the end again. And then counting to 3 was too hard and they gave out titles with such a random pattern some players got the rewards and didn't even know why themselves.

Which brings me to my next point, Mark Biggs. Totally screwed by bioware, they made him content creator and then removed most of the content he made.

Eventhough I disagree on @TrixxieTriss on some PvP ideas, I still think if everything he/she suggested was done the game would not be dead.

[OlBuzzard]

In order to provide a well-rounded game for a much larger audience I try not to make this matter of a singular importance...  namely my own personal special interests.  I DO from time to time interject my perspectives on a variety of subjects.  That is a far cry removed from asking for specific input on a given topic and then repeatedly ignoring what is being said.  

The 10 years celebration that never happened is proof of the overall condition of SWTOR.  There could be a number of reasons that it turned into the disaster that it did.  None of us here on this forum board can say for a certainty what took place.  And it's very unlikely that we ever will know the actual truth of the matter.  What I can say as a consumer that it has to be one of the biggest missed opportunities that I've witnessed in my lifetime.  I say that from a business management standpoint of view as well as that of just someone who was anticipating having a lot of fun resulting in fond memories for years to come.  Instead ... I do have memories alright.  And it will last for years to come.  Unfortunately, those memories are ones that I'd just as soon forget.

Somehow ... 7.0 did not achieve a very positive impact on this community.  The community is still suffering from the consequences of those actions.  To blame the consumers for those actions which lead us down that path in the first place is lacking in wisdom and insight and potentially leading us down to another similar path.  That end will be no different than that of 7.0

There has been a few positive things along the way since 7.0  It's not been entirely bad.  Yet the simple fact remains (as I've said before)...  The negativity in what has been released completely overshadows the positive.  Feedback is simply a reflection of what has been released.  That too seems to be overwhelmingly negative.

What we need is more positive input and feedback.  That could easily start by seeing a more positive direction of the game development. 
** PvP reconstruction (There are several places to find SOUND reason and input in that area)
** PvE multiple levels of challenges:  reaching a wider audience is a must (face rolling is not the answer for everything)
** Content
** End game activities
** Stimulating rewards

When was the last time we had any kind of large-scale party (besides a Life-Day celebration) ?

[Char_Ell]

6 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Do you realize how condescending this sounds?

I as a player want MY interests to be heard and this is what I use the forums for, I do not care - nor should I - how this affects the greater game. Its not my choice to make, but it is also allowed to state my honest opinion on what I would like to see.

What I wrote had no condescending intent included.  I simply stated my opinion on why the devs don't communicate more and explain the reasons behind the decisions they make.  I didn't say that forum participants should stop posting or try being less negative.   I didn't even think that because I'm pretty sure people, like you, are going to post whatever they want.  And if you don't care and don't even think you should care how what you post impacts the greater game then that is your choice to make.  What you can't control is how the devs respond so if the devs decide to not do what forum posters tell them then that is their choice to make.  Maybe that has contributed to SWTOR's decline but they're the ones whose livelihood depends on this game so they have more at stake than players do.

[Spikanor]

what the devs need to do now is delay update 7.3.1 with 3 month's so that there can chance things before there make the game more worse.

what there can do is super easy.

1. remove all the stupid tax idea's there wane add and most of the one's there have all add like the mail tax and trade tax need to be remove.
2. there most make a sticky thread where all the players in the communety can post there credit sink idea's on it between a time limit before the thread closed so that there can add some good idea's for the credit sink players have then adding something stupid like a increase tax.
3. pick a lot from the credit sink idea's players have come up with and use it also in there update patch.

thats now something there need to do now to start fixing the game from the big mess.

and after then there need to listing to the feedback and idea suggestions players have more since it can save the game a lot of trouble in the end

[TheVoyant]

20 hours ago, sharpenedstick said:

Some of you need to get the devs off the pedestal you put them on. They are providing a service. We are customers. They dismiss their customers at their own peril.

This is the bottom line 100%, anything else is an excuse. This whole "limited resources" + "unrealistic expectations" takes are pure nonsense.

People literally would have been happy with story content + levels & not breaking the game further. No one really asked for Combat Styles for example, it came out of thin air. While the loadouts are nice, they mismanaged their resources.

If they would have made themselves a toolkit to create levels for example, simple sensible solutions. 

We live in such a weird era where the consumers apologize & defend on behalf of a poorly done job. 

Excuses do not make up for the results. Virtually every other MMO has put out substantial content this year. Necrom for ESO, Secrets of the Obscure for GW2, etc.

The last "substantial" content for Swtor was Legacy of the Sith, which is commonly referred to as a downgrade. The Devs then misled the entire base into thinking there was going to be a year long celebration. Which there simply wasn't anything at all. And now we're here.

To think they can't turn it around is illogical, there are plenty of players who would love to return. They simply don't trust the way the product is run. This isn't 2002. People return to games when they fix themselves all the time. Path of Exile, Warframe, etc. 

Just stop covering for them and hold them accountable.

 

[Pirana]

^ That post pretty much sums it up. The people here defending the devs actions are nothing short of comical. Without the customers, these people wouldn't have jobs, unfortunately that's already occurred to some degree though, that's true in any industry around the world. That doesn't mean we should dictate everything that is released, that would be asinine, but you might want to listen to customer feedback, especially when you're asking for it. See A.B. and how that worked out for them, the billions that were lost in addition to the numerous jobs, all because they didn't understand their customer base.

Instead of tweaking existing systems, do what other successful MMO's do, such as GW2, WoW, ESO, FF14, release quality content, those companies have all been around as long as this one, with the exception of WoW and will outlast this game by years, all because of the knuckleheaded decisions that continue to be spoon fed to the player base here. Stop making poor to questionable decisions and it's possible people might come back, although highly unlikely at this point. This game has a similar stigma attached to it that SWG still has, poor management.

[JakRoanin]

I'm sorry, this is a luxury product not an essential service or vital life necessity. Do I think the Devs should implement more feedback? It'd be nice to get rid of the ridiculous currencies for gearing. However, no, they don't owe me anything. The day I no longer want to play, I stop. I actually took a long break just until today, (having a wicked case of Covid doesn't help) I just played a bunch of dailies and I had fun. Therefore, the game still gets my money. When the fun stops the money stops. I refuse to bash the Devs for making the game they signed on to make. If a person doesn't like what they're playing it's up to them to stop playing not the Devs to change.

[Spikanor]

2 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

I'm sorry, this is a luxury product not an essential service or vital life necessity. Do I think the Devs should implement more feedback? It'd be nice to get rid of the ridiculous currencies for gearing. However, no, they don't owe me anything. The day I no longer want to play, I stop. I actually took a long break just until today, (having a wicked case of Covid doesn't help) I just played a bunch of dailies and I had fun. Therefore, the game still gets my money. When the fun stops the money stops. I refuse to bash the Devs for making the game they signed on to make. If a person doesn't like what they're playing it's up to them to stop playing not the Devs to change.

you need to understand first a few things.

the devs have screw up the communety a lot of time's and the big screw up from then was with the 7.0 expension there have done to make things only more worse.

most of the problems we have now are all mistake's there have done in the past like the inflation problem is there mistake there have done in the past and we pay now the price for it.

do you think its fun to play a game that has a big bug problem there not fix at all.

how many time's i have not see a promise from then and there not keep it at all.

sure the devs not have to listing to feedback at all but you know what is then going to happing then the game become's death since players leave and not come back and the devs lose there jobs also so thats why feedback is important from the communety since it can save there jobs.

1 thing we all know is that if the devs never have listing to the feedback from the communety then this game was all death before it has reach its 10 years celebration.

[JakRoanin]

I do wish bugs would get fixed, and no, I don't agree with everything the Devs have done. I'm not saying that they've done everything right. But for me, personally, nothing has happened that makes me want to stop playing. This game is what it is, a mostly RPG with MMO elements. But as I said, this is a game. It's not at all necessary to live a good life. So, I'm good. The Voss update was great for me. It's what I like. I appreciate other people have different needs, but we all need to accept that we do not control the game.