SWTOR move to new devs - What we know, what we don't, and reasonable assumptions

[Stradlin]

30 minutes ago, manlymandayruin said:

You must be the only Ultima Online player that is happy with the state of things then, or simply just the only Ultima Online player. You can enjoy your SWTOR text-based anniversary events for the next 10 years, but the majority of people played this game for the story. About 99%. And whats the point of going through the story, and developing SWTOR characters, for a dead game that will never be updated with content. The game will rot and die under broadsword. Just as Ultima Online and DAOC are, a game NOBODY plays, mind you.

Yeah dude that must be it.

Broadsword is a very small studio, at least up until SWTOR devs join it. Both UO and DAOC have very, very small dev teams.Much like you, I know next to nothing of DAOC, so unlike you, I can't pretend to know how things work over there. Unlike you, I know UO well indeed. In some ways, it is in "live development" in ways somebody who knows only TOR can't even imagine. Their frequent  one off live events are pretty cool and unique way to approach live development andnew content. It is something TOR, or most other MMos have never seen.  Even so, Broadsword is an extremely small studio, your doom&gloom narrative remains 100% intact even without spreading false info on state of UO.

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Stradlin

[Screaming_Ziva]

1 minute ago, manlymandayruin said:

but the majority of people played this game for the story. About 99%.

I think you're over-estimating that number by a lot.  If 99% of the people left in the game were playing for the story, the game would be dead since the story is dead.  I'd say about 99% of the people play this game because it's Star Wars.

[manlymandayruin]

1 minute ago, Stradlin said:

Yeah dude that must be it.

 

try telling me with a straight face that broadsword will make a SWTOR expansion pack, or voiced content.

 

1 minute ago, Screaming_Ziva said:

I think you're over-estimating that number by a lot.  If 99% of the people left in the game were playing for the story, the game would be dead since the story is dead.  I'd say about 99% of the people play this game because it's Star Wars.

It will become quite clear when youre sitting on that fleet by yourself what the playerbase wanted. 

[Khoxion]

5 minutes ago, manlymandayruin said:

You must be the only Ultima Online player that is happy with the state of things then, or simply just the only Ultima Online player. You can enjoy your SWTOR text-based anniversary events for the next 10 years, but the majority of people played this game for the story. About 99%. And whats the point of going through the story, and developing SWTOR characters, for a dead game that will never be updated with content. The game will rot and die under broadsword. Just as Ultima Online and DAOC are, a game NOBODY plays, mind you.

 

Even when assuming that 99% played the game just because of the story (which is high likely not true, a source would have been nice), the decision to have voiceovers for every questline was not a smart one. The game was unfortunately designed to be primarily a themepark MMO in a sea of other themepark MMO's. Those must deliver new content all the time, or many players will loose interest. Regardless how much some people like it, the full voiceover decision made every new content more expensive and therefore less and less likely to happen. Apparently, the amount of players who valued the MMO for it's unique fully voiceover story feature was not high enough to keep the game at Bioware, so i'm not sure who you are angry at.
If the game is transfered to Broadsword because it isn't that big of a cash cow anymore, keeping it at BW would not change anything at all; it wouldn't make it more lucrative/less risky to fund new story DLC with full VO.

It also makes no sense to write that "the game will rot and die under broadsword" at this time and that UO and DAOC are games that no one plays.
If they predicted SWTOR would die and has no potential, they wouldn't take it over.
If UO and DAOC are played by no one, they wouldn't keep the servers running.
Ofc everything under the assumption that Broadsword doesn't have a magical money tree in their garden.

[jedimasterjac]

Just now, Khoxion said:

 

Even when assuming that 99% played the game just because of the story (which is high likely not true, a source would have been nice), the decision to have voiceovers for every questline was not a smart one. The game was unfortunately designed to be primarily a themepark MMO in a sea of other themepark MMO's. Those must deliver new content all the time, or many players will loose interest. Regardless how much some people like it, the full voiceover decision made every new content more expensive and therefore less and less likely to happen. Apparently, the amount of players who valued the MMO for it's unique fully voiceover story feature was not high enough to keep the game at Bioware, so i'm not sure who you are angry at.
If the game is transfered to Broadsword because it isn't that big of a cash cow anymore, keeping it at BW would not change anything at all; it wouldn't make it more lucrative/less risky to fund new story DLC with full VO.

It also makes no sense to write that "the game will rot and die under broadsword" at this time and that UO and DAOC are games that no one plays.
If they predicted SWTOR would die and has no potential, they wouldn't take it over.
If UO and DAOC are played by no one, they wouldn't keep the servers running.
Ofc everything under the assumption that Broadsword doesn't have a magical money tree in their garden.

100% about the voice acting. This game is foundationally plagued with terrible design decisions that also can’t be reverted or walked back because they’re core to the game’s identity. 

[jedimasterjac]

Also thought I’d chime in and say that the amazing Broadsword Online development studio has a massive team of six people that they denote to the continued development of Ultima Online, if you want a glimpse at the future of this game. 
 

[manlymandayruin]

1 hour ago, Khoxion said:

 

Even when assuming that 99% played the game just because of the story (which is high likely not true, a source would have been nice), the decision to have voiceovers for every questline was not a smart one. The game was unfortunately designed to be primarily a themepark MMO in a sea of other themepark MMO's. Those must deliver new content all the time, or many players will loose interest. Regardless how much some people like it, the full voiceover decision made every new content more expensive and therefore less and less likely to happen. Apparently, the amount of players who valued the MMO for it's unique fully voiceover story feature was not high enough to keep the game at Bioware, so i'm not sure who you are angry at.
If the game is transfered to Broadsword because it isn't that big of a cash cow anymore, keeping it at BW would not change anything at all; it wouldn't make it more lucrative/less risky to fund new story DLC with full VO.

It also makes no sense to write that "the game will rot and die under broadsword" at this time and that UO and DAOC are games that no one plays.
If they predicted SWTOR would die and has no potential, they wouldn't take it over.
If UO and DAOC are played by no one, they wouldn't keep the servers running.
Ofc everything under the assumption that Broadsword doesn't have a magical money tree in their garden.

The fact that SWTOR was a voiceover MMO was what made it special. There are many dime a dozen dead MMO's that have "good design decisions" that are fully in text but that obviously didnt save them. Also UO and DAOC have an active playerbase of about 3,000 combined. That's a dead game no matter how you put it, and theyre able to keep milking them because they are old, outdated games that they never update.

And dont talk to me about cost with the innumerable failures that Bioware(its not even really bioware, bioware was killed long ago) has made. First with Dragon Age Inquisition and then with Mass Effect Andromeda. Those games were massive failures that lost them tons of money, but that isnt stopping them from dumping all of their resources into 2 new titles that are without a doubt going to fail again. 

SWTOR has about ~200k active players, this is count is going to plummet under both broadsword, and your stupid ideas of "better design decisions". 

[Traceguy]

It was extremely nice of EA to keep subscriptions the same price over the years. Today, the subscription is est $15/month. This is what it was nearly 10 years ago. Take that $15 to Walmart today and you can buy maybe 50% of what you could 10 years ago.

That said, if the game is going to a maintenance mode, perhaps subscriptions should drop to $8. And Cartel Market Prices be cut 50%.  Hell, the 50% sale yesterday had a lightsaber for 2550cc. That means without the sale, the item is worth 5100cc (That's nearly $50).

 

Bioware has axed enough old content. If Broadsword wants to axe any more, then that's probably my que to leave.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Traceguy

[Char_Ell]

7 hours ago, Stradlin said:

Broadsword isn't any more or less "EA" than Bioware, both are studios EA owns. Generally and comparatively  speaking Broadsword def isn't much of a crown jewel among EA studios ofc,.

This is incorrect.  Broadsword Online Games is not owned by EA but BioWare is owned by EA.  Broadsword was formed as an independent studio shortly after EA decided to close Mythic Entertainment and apparently has some rights to use the Mythic Entertainment name since http://www.mythicentertainment.com/about.html has Broadsword plastered all over it.  Rob Denton apparently worked some sort of deal with EA to continue operating Ultima Online (inherited by Mythic from Origin after Origin's closure) and Dark Age of Camelot after EA closed Mythic and Broadsword was formed to take on those games.  EA is still the publisher for Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot.

10 hours ago, mCion said:

What we can reasonably assume:

1- Most current devs will immediately leave, be fired, or quietly search for a new job. As mentioned, career wise going from having EA and BioWare in your resume to Broadsword is a major downgrade. Many will jump ship as soon as possible, whether it's now or in a year.

2- SWTOR will likely get no story updates, just events under the new devs. It is likely that 7.4 (done under BioWare) will be the final major update for the game. This is based on Broadsword's current handling of the games that are under their umbrella.

3- SWTOR will likely not die/shutdown for a moderate to long time. This is based on the two games that Broadsword handles, they are still going almost a decade later after they took over.

4- Any other major changes to the game are unlikely to happen under BioWare. 64 bit and AWS are probably the last major updates to the game we'll see. There will be little incentive for BioWare to develop requested features like Nim R-4 or non critical features like a crafting revamp. These changes or non-story features may happen under Broadsword.

1) Largely agree.  I certainly think yesterday's leaked news about EA having discussions and signing letter of intent with Broadsword Online Games to take over development of SWTOR had a demoralizing impact on many players and in all likelihood SWTOR devs too.  Who knows how devs will respond but if I were in their shoes I would certainly be updating my resume and looking for other career opportunities. 

2) Too soon to say what updates beyond 7.3 will occur under BioWare or potentially Broadsword.  I know Keith Kanneg stated "All future content updates are also moving forward as planned, including 7.3.1 and 7.4." However I think Keith Kanneg was able to say that yesterday because he hadn't been told to stop any development work by his superiors since yesterday's news was not supposed to go public nor be made known to SWTOR devs.  With yesterday's news I feel there is no certainty where SWTOR's future development is concerned.  Keith Kanneg effectively decided to announce two additional releases before the announced 7.3 even went live which is very much out-of-character for BioWare Austin.

3) At this point in time I do not have any confidence to predict SWTOR's future development.  I think what many people are not taking into account is the SWTOR is a licensed IP for EA whereas Dark Age of Camelot and Ultima Online are IP's owned by EA.  Having an IP licensing cost makes a real difference when it comes to operating financials for a game.  Why did EA close Warhammer Online instead of just letting it run in maintenance mode like Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot?  I have to think Warhammer IP owner Games Workshop had something to do with it.  Was Lucasfilm Games aware that EA was having conversations with Broadsword to take over operation of SWTOR?  If not, then Lucasfilm Games might not feel very happy to have found out thru a leaked media report.  EA needs to keep good relations with Lucasfilm Games if they want to continue developing other Star Wars games besides SWTOR.

4) This is more of a restatement of item #2.  After yesterday's leaked report I do not know what major changes will be made to the game by BioWare.  I know they've been planning on moving servers to AWS but I'm not sure if that still makes sense to do.  Not sure why you even mention NiM R-4 when Eric Musco finally came out and said that NiM R-4 is not on SWTOR's roadmap.  The unfortunate reality of yesterdays leak is it created a lot of uncertainty about SWTOR's future among the player base and probably the dev team too.

[OlBuzzard]

3 hours ago, Screaming_Ziva said:

I think you're over-estimating that number by a lot.  If 99% of the people left in the game were playing for the story, the game would be dead since the story is dead.  I'd say about 99% of the people play this game because it's Star Wars.

I'd say this is a better evaluation! 

[Khoxion]

41 minutes ago, manlymandayruin said:

Also UO and DAOC have an active playerbase of about 3,000 combined. That's a dead game no matter how you put it, and theyre able to keep milking them because they are old, outdated games that they never update.

UO is about 26 years old, got many updates over the years, including rendering related ones.

DAOC is 22 years old and got a bugfix and balance patch pushed to their PTS 3 weeks ago: https://darkageofcamelot.com

I don't get what both have to do with SWTOR though, particularly when considering the leaks that parts of the BW staff will allegedly switch to Broadsword too. I still don't see how the game remaining at BW will be any different from Broadsword hosting/patching it. As i already wrote, expecting any further major (fully voiced) DLCs from BW is imo very unrealistic and wishful thinking, even if it remained in their hands.

41 minutes ago, manlymandayruin said:

and your stupid ideas of "better design decisions"

Very mature; i wish you good luck in finding catharsis while you revel in your anger 😙

[sharpenedstick]

Please let whoever takes over clean house and clear out the current dev staff. I'm sure they are diligent and tried their best, and no doubt they worked under restrictions about which we aren't informed, but frankly they have not done a very good job.

[Khoxion]

31 minutes ago, Char_Ell said:

3) At this point in time I do not have any confidence to predict SWTOR's future development.  I think what many people are not taking into account is the SWTOR is a licensed IP for EA whereas Dark Age of Camelot and Ultima Online are IP's owned by EA.  Having an IP licensing cost makes a real difference when it comes to operating financials for a game.  Why did EA close Warhammer Online instead of just letting it run in maintenance mode like Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot?  I have to think Warhammer IP owner Games Workshop had something to do with it.  Was Lucasfilm Games aware that EA was having conversations with Broadsword to take over operation of SWTOR?  If not, then Lucasfilm Games might not feel very happy to have found out thru a leaked media report.  EA needs to keep good relations with Lucasfilm Games if they want to continue developing other Star Wars games besides SWTOR.

Mythic had iirc a fixed 5 year license for Warhammer Online from GW which wasn't renewed for unknown reasons. The game had probably not the best subscriber numbers and high likely the new license deal between GW and Sega/Creative Assembly for WH fantasy played a major role too. GW is known to be very protective with their IP, eg every single quest text in Warhammer Online had to be sanctioned by them, according to ex mythic devs.

I think no one outside of EA/BW knows the conditions of the SWTOR license deal and how much freedom they have. Maybe they can maintain existing games limitless, without additional costs and just can't create new ones, Or they have to pay per game they release etc pp. But afaik they just lost the exclusivity rights on SW games.

PS: your text color makes everything more difficult to read

[manlymandayruin]

1 hour ago, Khoxion said:

UO is about 26 years old, got many updates over the years, including rendering related ones.

DAOC is 22 years old and got a bugfix and balance patch pushed to their PTS 3 weeks ago: https://darkageofcamelot.com

I don't get what both have to do with SWTOR though, particularly when considering the leaks that parts of the BW staff will allegedly switch to Broadsword too. I still don't see how the game remaining at BW will be any different from Broadsword hosting/patching it. As i already wrote, expecting any further major (fully voiced) DLCs from BW is imo very unrealistic and wishful thinking, even if it remained in their hands.

Very mature; i wish you good luck in finding catharsis while you revel in your anger 😙

First of all, yes. I am very angry and have every right to be. I got the news out of nowhere that they are bricking an mmo that ive invested into, and has been my favorite mmo for more than a decade. And to your comment: “expecting any further major (fully voiced) DLCs from BW is imo very unrealistic and wishful thinking, even if it remained in their hands.” 

How is this unrealistic? Am i missing something? The last content came out last year. How is it so far fetched to expect more? 

[xxSHOONYxx]

11 minutes ago, manlymandayruin said:

First of all, yes. I am very angry and have every right to be. I got the news out of nowhere that they are bricking an mmo that ive invested into, and has been my favorite mmo for more than a decade. And to your comment: “expecting any further major (fully voiced) DLCs from BW is imo very unrealistic and wishful thinking, even if it remained in their hands.” 

How is this unrealistic? Am i missing something? The last content came out last year. How is it so far fetched to expect more? 

Because the investment is not worth it, too much money for little to no reward

[manlymandayruin]

Just now, xxSHOONYxx said:

Because the investment is not worth it, too much money for little to no reward

Cartel purchases + subscriptions. Now lets do the math. Disregard cartel purchases and focus on subscriptions. There are around 200k active users. Lets say half of them are subscribed which is GENEROUS and there are likely more than that: 100k subscribers. Which nets about 1.5 MILLION per MONTH. And if you mean to tell me thet isnt enough to pay for a simple storyline once or twice a year then that is ridiculous.

[Samcuu]

21 minutes ago, manlymandayruin said:

Cartel purchases + subscriptions. Now lets do the math. Disregard cartel purchases and focus on subscriptions. There are around 200k active users. Lets say half of them are subscribed which is GENEROUS and there are likely more than that: 100k subscribers. Which nets about 1.5 MILLION per MONTH. And if you mean to tell me thet isnt enough to pay for a simple storyline once or twice a year then that is ridiculous.

I dont think that 200k active user thing is an accurate number tbh.

[xxSHOONYxx]

32 minutes ago, manlymandayruin said:

Cartel purchases + subscriptions. Now lets do the math. Disregard cartel purchases and focus on subscriptions. There are around 200k active users. Lets say half of them are subscribed which is GENEROUS and there are likely more than that: 100k subscribers. Which nets about 1.5 MILLION per MONTH. And if you mean to tell me thet isnt enough to pay for a simple storyline once or twice a year then that is ridiculous.

Seems you don't get it. VA is not cartel market or subscriptions, the benefit VA has is minimal and when you add the cost it has is a detriment to the health of the game. Even way more successful mmos like ff14 that make way more money are very careful with VA and when it is used

Edited June 8, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[manlymandayruin]

19 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Seems you don't get it. VA is not cartel market or subscriptions, the benefit VA has is minimal and when you add the cost it has is a detriment to the health of the game. Even way more successful mmos like ff14 that make way more money are very careful with VA and when it is used

Thats just not true. And ff14 is non stop VA. It all comes down to greed. Bioware wants to get a platinum private jet instead of a golden one, so they are willing to crush anybody’s hopes and dreams so their pockets can be just a little bit fatter. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

51 minutes ago, manlymandayruin said:

Thats just not true. And ff14 is non stop VA. It all comes down to greed. Bioware wants to get a platinum private jet instead of a golden one, so they are willing to crush anybody’s hopes and dreams so their pockets can be just a little bit fatter. 

If you truly believe that your anger must be blinding you. You should go off the pc and calm down. This is just a game not the end of the world

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, manlymandayruin said:

Cartel purchases + subscriptions. Now lets do the math. Disregard cartel purchases and focus on subscriptions. There are around 200k active users. Lets say half of them are subscribed which is GENEROUS and there are likely more than that: 100k subscribers. Which nets about 1.5 MILLION per MONTH. And if you mean to tell me thet isnt enough to pay for a simple storyline once or twice a year then that is ridiculous.

Where are you pulling these numbers from? Steam certainly doesn’t even show anywhere near 20% of those numbers. Of course none of us know how many players still use the legacy login or Steam. So you’re just making numbers up out of thin air.

[dgnuff]

16 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. What is necessarily true is that Broadsword is in Virginia; the swtor devs are in Austin. 

Although that's less of an issue today than it was even five years ago.  Covid changed things dramatically.  For instance, the last job I had before retiring was with Respawn, another EA studio, working on Apex Legends.  Respawn are based in Southern California, I lived at that time in the SF Bay area.  I never actually visited Respawn's offices at any time.

 

* Interviews were handled remotely via Zoom.

* On getting the job, a complete system, fully functional arrived on my doorstep via FedEx.  I just plugged it all in, started it up, logged into the Respawn VPN and was ready to go.

* Standups, and all other meetings were conducted via Zoom.  Source management was an absolute breeze due to the use of Git.

* When the time came to retire, I held the exit interviews remotely, packaged up the system, printed the FedEx shipping labels and sent the whole lot back.

 

My point being that there is nothing now that prohibits a company based in Virginia from hiring devs who live in Austin.  Smart companies recognize this truth, and indeed they get some hidden benefits.  Due to not burning 2.5 to 3 hours a day as I did commuting to and from my previous job, I could put in an hour or two more per day on Apex, and still have more free time to enjoy (e.g.) watching a movie with my wife.

[DaForceiswithme]

I don't think we can make any reasonable assumptions from this news. Except that EA has almost zero faith in Bioware (and who can blame them) Broadsword's current work is not on the same scale as this game, and will never have the same potential this game does thanks to the IP.  This is probably the biggest game Broadsword has ever handled and if they are not owned by EA that most likely means that broardsword is making some sort of investment to try to be able to handle this game. You don't take on something of this scale unless you want to attempt to recover that. with offering jobs/benefits You are talking about a potential multi-million dollar company take over. This sounds like more of a studio shutting down more than a game going into maintenance mode.

Not saying this is going to turn into a WOW killer, but I would be surprised if there isn't at least some attempt of some decent updates or maybe an "Expansion" with the investment being made here. I don't think an expansion will ever happen and we haven't really gotten an expansion since 5.0 anyway. The voiceover is a lame excuse, there are more and more MMOs  that voice act.

 

I am going off the assumption that Broadsword is NOT owned by EA. If that is not true then perhaps you are correct since its all just shuffling resources around, but then again. Why offer people jobs if the idea is to just milk the game anyway.

[eabevella]

People actually think the VAs are what hold the game back lol

[Samcuu]

An underrated part of that article from IGN was the admittance of the head of EA in an earnings call, revealing that Swtor's revenue was close to $1b. He said this right at 6.0 launch when the game had been out for 8 years. That's like $125m revenue per year on average. Doesn't work like that I know but even if you attribute let's say half of that money coming in the first 3 years, it's still around $100m a year. That's not something EA is going to turn their nose up to, idk but to me seems in their best interests to keep the game healthy.