I can run this game much better than EAware (which isn't saying much)

[sharpenedstick]

Yes, obligatory clickbait title, but still true. The simple fact is this game is not very well run, and what limited dev resources EAware commits to this game are primarily based around pet projects that are sweeping in scope and poorly implemented, converting the latest SW show into cartel coin items, and slow drip content that is repetitive, dull and thematically uninteresting (while also usually bug ridden).

I have no experience in MMO design or administration, and yet if I were put in charge I could do a much better job and within a year improve this game by any objective metric.

Consider the following my audition reel:

Core Concepts

You can just see here, but to have a little in this thread:

#1: Need stronger design philosophies that help guide development, so that each iteration isn't trying to reinvent a jankier wheel. Central to this has to be stop trying to please everyone. You aren't going to do it. There are major systemic issues with the game that have to be resolved (i.e., inflation), but trying to avoid pissing anyone off is just allowing the issue to linger. Instead, pick the best solution for the health of the game. You can weather the short-term griping, and if you have improved the game, you are likely to see growth.

#2: Communicate, communicate, communicate. All of last week had four dev posts (and I'm being kind counting them as they're mostly housekeeping). A community manager's ENTIRE JOB is to manage the community. Can they do it telepathically? No. If you explain yourself and engage, the player base will feel more included even when they disagree with you. Detailing the reason why you've made the changes you've made provides people insight into how you as devs see the game they pay for (and justify your continuing employment).

#3: You need to tell an actual story, not merely "monster of the week" (or, more realistically given content release pacing, year) where we have to travel to a daily themepark and grind the same dull junk in exchange for a handful of cut scenes and currencies to a gearing system that the next devs will completely invalidate.

#4: Stop concentrating dev resources on "moonshots." I understand your pet projects are interesting to you, but they aren't what we need. Take Combat Styles for example. Perfectly fine feature. But was it worth two years of dev time to enable us to play what we already can play? No. It won't help with retention, it won't add new game play. Focus more on QoL fixes and smaller but more frequent releases, with a larger project being developed on the side.

Specific Examples

Economy

WIN (whip inflation now):  Dramatic action is needed, not quick travel cost increases. I've detailed the fixes here. They will work. Yes, some people will cry. That's how you get salt for the omelettes. Also, when you give free cartel item packs (as with the deco/mount/weapon/armor from seasons), you need to expand the range of items they include because all you've done is crash the value of some items and choke the GTN with chaff.

Galactic Seasons

They are fine. Grindy and uninspired, but fine. The thing is, why is each season about some new meaningless NPC? Why not NPCs we've met before? Why not making them about a few class companions? We don't need another dead reputation track and another forgettable companion. There's over 100 companions now! FFS we are done with them.

Update Periodic Events

When was the last time Rakghouls, BBH, Gree, Swoop, etc got new rewards? Putting new rewards on existing content is an easy way to sustain player engagement. Also, these periodic events should be linked to the conquest for that week. Get people playing them again!

As a somewhat larger side project, look to add content to these events in a way that uses existing resources as much as possible to reduce dev workload. For instance, consider for Rakghoul a scenario where a group of players fights every increasing waves and you get rewards for each wave you survive.

Quick Fixes Matter

Make it a priority for the dev team to knock out small bugs on a regular basis. Likewise, small QoL improvements such as when buying from a vendor that uses specialized currencies, display the amount of that currency the character has on the vendor selling window, so they don't also have to have their currencies tab open. A small thing? Yes! But very easy to execute and a clear improvement. There's literally HUNDREDS of these small changes that can be rolled out over time and make playing the game easier and better. Here's a small list of easy fixes:

1. Get vendor items off the GTN. So sick of scrolling through 10 pages of decorations from the vendor just to get to real items.

2. Increase ignore list size to like 999999999999999999999999 or whatever.

3. Put gathering skills learned from missions at the TOP rather than the bottom.

All three of those should be doable in an hour, tops, of dev time. There's so many ways to improve the player experience that requires very little effort.

Update Reward Vendors

How hard is it to put an item on the VIP and CE vendors each year? Not at all. Why hasn't the GSF vendor received a new item in years? Support the systems you already have in place. It's trivially easy to find some graphic asset and put it on the vendor as a decoration or pet or whatever.

Improve PvP/GSF experience for most

Get premades out of GSF/PvP queue and into their own queue (while also being able to sit in solo queue). Yes, this queue will never pop because premades have zero interest in playing other premades, but they still can queue for it.

Instead, allow someone to queue with a max of one other person. Two skilled and coordinated players can definitely impact, if not decide, a WZ or GSF game, so they can still be impactful and you can still play with your friends.

For pvp, instead of using a single medal system, tie the medals to the players' roles. If you're heals (for instance), you should be able to get up to seven medals through various healing metrics, not have to scramble to do damage as well.

Expand SWTOR's visibility (even if only slightly)

Why are there no Twitch drops? No Prime drops. No Facebook follow SWTOR for free decoration. Or twitter. Or whatever. Will this greatly increase the player count? No. But it's trivially easy to do, so if it gets you any players (or, you know, retains any that you have now), it's worth it.

Longer Term Goals

Not everything can be done in quick fixes, you do need longer term goals and bigger projects too, but they should all make sense:

1. Rationalize your gearing system. You've gone back and forth 20 times now, and the current system is maybe the worst of all. Look at how many currency vendors you have! Hyde and Zeek, just why is that a thing? Pick a system and stick with it, then make that system the best. Stop trotting out a system, then the next fail devs completely change it, and then it happens again...

2. Stop making every story a threat the galaxy. Thanks to KotFE/KotET destroying the scale of the game, we have already defeated an IMMORTAL GALAXY EATING FORCE GHOST. Instead, go smaller scale. An empire large enough to defeat the Republic and the Empire was defeated and left in ruins. Make a story thread about the resulting changes on Zakuul. While Zakuul was running the galaxy, they probably did things like empower various collaborators such as the Separtists (remember them) on Ord Mantell. Send us back there! Or about a Star Fortress that is taken over by some Heralds or something. Use what you have, and tell smaller stories!

When you have a huge sweeping backdrop, the way you explore it is in small scale. Stop trying to make everything the freaking Death Star. All it does is cheapen the idea of a Death Star.

And, when you send us back to planets and places that already exist, it takes less dev time. Make a FP set on the streets of Zakuul hunting down a rogue element of the old regime that won't accept defeat. Much quicker level design that way.

3. Improve the decorating experience. The decoration menu is atrocious, the x/y axis completely insufficient, many decos horribly improperly sized, etc.

4. Dribble in class stories. Yes, class stories will never again be the main axis of the game. They should have been, but that time is long gone. That doesn't mean you can't rotate in more class story stuff in content.

5. Support and extend existing content. Why have Space Missions been completely abandoned? Kill two birds with one stone. Make a new Space Mission whose map can also be a GSF map.

Conclusion

There's plenty more to say, but basically my pitch to run SWTOR boils down to making decisions that will improve the game for most, while accepting some people will be upset. Focusing the story more on a smaller scale that relates to the players rather than the pet NPCs of devs, abandoning vanity projects in favor of small QoL improvements, supporting existing mechanics, actually interacting and building the community, and creating systems that scale rather than hamfisted and poorly executed one-size-fits-all fixes.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[Ardrossan]

This all genuinely sounds great, you have my vote. Posting your grand vision to the forum is the first step in the process to becoming creative director. The second step is securing the nomination of a worthy forum veteran to sign off on your proposal, and you've now accomplished that, way to go! Now we just have to figure out what the next step would be, any ideas 

[sharpenedstick]

18 minutes ago, Ardrossan said:

This all genuinely sounds great, you have my vote. Posting your grand vision to the forum is the first step in the process to becoming creative director. The second step is securing the nomination of a worthy forum veteran to sign off on your proposal, and you've now accomplished that, way to go! Now we just have to figure out what the next step would be, any ideas 

Armed rebellion. They're built on hope, and that's all I've got for the future of this game.

[Otowi]

Well written post, you would get my vote.

What you said about communication is so true. It's mind boggeling that we have so little communication, except the recent posts from the dev guy about the changes to the GTN and so on. Those posts are what we need BioWare.

You guys post about your grand vision for the game, but then fail to even give us some small view as to what that vision is. I understand you can't really talk about story, but atleast give us something.

There's been so many times where you promise more and better communication, and then you go into silent running mode for a very long time. Why does this keep happening? Is it the case of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing?

Dead horse i know, but my points are valid...

Edited May 25, 2023 by Otowi

[RikuvonDrake]

game is probably doing quite well in terms of revenue and profits based on what ea expected a couple of years ago, so I dunno if the people who are making the decisions are unhappy, most likely that's not the case

[Stradlin]

When it comes to estimating true quality of a SWTOR devs and whether or not they "get it",  t can be done by 1st pressing ctrl-f when reading some lenghty live stream recap of theirs   and then typing "GSF"  or "Starfighter" to search field. More hits, better the dev. OP manages six hits, which is like six more than current BW devs  usually manage. OP, you're hired!

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Stradlin

[sharpenedstick]

25 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

When it comes to estimating true quality of a SWTOR devs and whether or not they "get it",  t can be done by 1st pressing ctrl-f when reading some lenghty live stream recap of theirs   and then typing "GSF"  or "Starfighter" to search field. More hits, better the dev. OP manages six hits, which is like six more than current BW devs  usually manage. OP, you're hired!

 

 

What really baffles me is they spend all this time creating a system like GSF, then invest no effort in maintaining or updating it. Same with Space Missions. Same with Uprisings (which really need some kind of conceptual re-evaluation as to what game play experience they should offer). Same with periodic events like Gree.

Instead, every group of new devs is so emotionally invested in their pet projects that all they want to do is rush out their own darlings.

I have a concrete vision for literally every aspect of the game. It may not be what someone else would do, but it's progress. EAware, hire me.

Edited May 25, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[xordevoreaux]

Dear Sharpened,

To start off with something positive about your post, good job laying out what you see are problems. Few couch their concerns that clearly.

Practically nothing you mention is anything I care about.

GSF? Never do it.

PvP? Ditto. 

Massive ignore list capacity? Don't care, I haven't ignored anyone in ages.

Putting new rewards on existing content? I already have 65% or more of everything to be had on the cartel market, I certainly don't need more credits, and I stopped caring about deco drops a long time ago. Short of Bioware dropping a legacy-bound black-on-black dye module or a compendium for a quest reward, I'm not likely to do more than yawn at any rewards, and even those will get meh by the 2nd or 3rd run, and if those rewards are attached to GSF, PvP, or the swoop-thing, I still won't pursue them.

Kotfe/Kotet scale killers? I loved the sweeping nature of them and wish we had more cinematic-quality trippy dream sequences imposing massively high stakes. How many times can I care that power switched from Republic to Imp, from Imp to Republic, over and over and over again? How many more iterations must we read that story? Zero sense of progress to that, and no matter what we do, no matter how we "play our way," everybody knows our choices ultimately don't matter, we'll all wind up at the same point in the plot line regardless. How many more times must we clutch our pearls THIS time because Side So-and-So has temporarily gotten the upper hand? Again? I enjoyed Kotfe/Kotet for the very reason they broke that monotonous soul-killing hamster wheel.

Fixes that matter? We definitely lack the same priorities. Changes that you believe matter, what I believe matter, and what the next person holds dear more than likely will never sync up. Didn't see you complain about the lack of SSRs in original class story. Didn't see you complain about having to fight recycled dead people for lack of creativity to create stories around new characters to fight. Didn't see anywhere where you complained that server transfer cost is 1,000 cartel coins when it'd be far nicer were it 100... I could go on. We are not on the same page at all.

5 hours ago, sharpenedstick said:

All three of those should be doable in an hour, tops, of dev time.

As for things taking an hour to do, bit cavalier of an estimate:

1. I report bugs for the Document Foundation. I sit there and wait for the daily build of LibreOffice, and that sucker takes THREE HOURS. Count 'em. Three hours to compile. Most recent build, 3 hours, 10 minutes. Just to compile, even if all they did was make a one-line code change. The topology for that code base? The size of its footprint once installed? 422 megabytes of application and supporting DLL files. That's it. Even if we gave Bioware every credit in the world for making the most efficiently compiled program on the planet, code to finished compilation in under an hour is most likely a pipe dream.

2. And, if by an hour, all you're clocking are fingers on the keyboard to make the coding change, all participants on this forum, and I do mean all, are 100% ignorant of SWTOR's internal coding. We don't know how heavily Bioware has nested any object programming, how deep they've applied wrapper classes, how many mutually exclusive race condition fixes (mutex objects) they've deployed to kludge something, and we've no idea how much of the code is so old that the devs dare not touch it for fear of breaking something. I've been playing this game since 2013. I can't even begin to count the number of times Bioware released a small fix for a small reason, and BOOM, something absolutely completely unrelated breaks big-time, and out comes a hotfix. Way too many times.  Touch one thing, something else breaks. What we think might be a simple fix might be an absolute dog to do... right the first time.

 

Edit: Fun, just sitting here, I'm watching build 1426 grind through its compilation. Just watching the spinny little green thing a while. Nice and relaxing, at least until it turns red if the compilation bombs.

Edited May 26, 2023 by xordevoreaux

[sharpenedstick]

46 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

Practically nothing you mention is anything I care about.

GSF? Never do it.

Your individual preferences are irrelevant. So are mine. So are any specific user. EAware shouldn't decide what to do based on whether user X enjoys it or not. Rather, their goal is to ensure the greatest number of players engaging with the game with the greatest frequency possible, for the longest time possible. So they should support all content that they provide, especially where doing so is simple, in order to maximize player engagement.

But let's look even closer to your short-sighted assertion that you don't care about these things. Sure, you may not care about GSF. Fine, don't play it.

Do you care about decorations? GSF has 'em.

Do you care about buying and selling? Well, you can buy and sell the GSF decos or ship parts even if you don't play it.

Do you care about guild conquest for ship parts or conquest titles or guild leveling? Because you may have guildies who do GSF as their primary contribution.

Do you care about player retention? Because supporting formats will keep players who enjoy those formats around longer.

All these are interconnected, and if the devs put a new deco or pet on the GSF vendor, you aren't hurt at all and in fact can potentially benefit in many ways. This dynamic exists for all content types, and so we are all impacted by the health of every system in the game, whether directly or indirectly.

Also, though you don't do it now, maybe you might in the future.

46 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

otfe/Kotet scale killers? I loved the sweeping nature of them and wish we had more cinematic-quality trippy dream sequences imposing massively high stakes. How many times can I care that power switched from Republic to Imp, from Imp to Republic, over and over and over again?

Since the Republic and SIth Empire struggle for centuries, I'd say they can swap over-and-over again a huge number of times. And since it's what interests most players, which EAware knows (and is why the very next storyline returned to it), abandoning it is not something that should be done lightly.

But let's look at your support of the really bad KotFE/KotET because you don't seem to understand what stakes means. Failure is literally impossible. There are no stakes. Your choices do not matter. Decide to become Emperor? How has that impacted the story? Not at all. Decide not to ascend the throne? Same difference. The story tries to exist on an epic scale that is ultimately unsustainable, but also within the context of an MMO frankly ludicrous. I'm Emperor of the Universe now, and I'm killing six lizards for their kidneys to give to a random tribesman. Sure. I go to the fleet and there are 2000 emperors and 2000 others who dismantled the Eternal Empire. Okay.

It's not stakes you're enjoying. What you are praising isn't stakes, it's scope. It's the breadth of the setting you're being involved in. That's different than stakes, and different than scale.

Your defense was also of the political narrative (again, scope), which can exist regardless of whether or not we fight on the front lines, or we contend with an IMMORTAL GALAXY EATING FORCE GHOST. The idea of some third power strong enough to shake up the Pub/Imp struggle could be executed in many ways that do not require us to have faced down an opponent so vast that any future opposition is trivial. Right now the big baddie is Malgus? A man with an unbroken track record of failure? R4 is full of Grim Reaper zombies? That's Star Wars to you? Okay.

The reality is KotET/KotFE was badly made. The play experience is atrocious, and consists mostly of waves of 3-man Skytrooper patrols who all cc, and stealth detectors so you can't skip the garbage the devs know you want to skip. The story makes almost zero sense for non-Force users, isn't very good otherwise, and completely jacks the scale to 9999999999.

Everything you said you enjoy about it could still exist without us having to defeat an IMMORTAL GALAXY EATING FORCE GHOST.

46 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

Didn't see anywhere where you complained that server transfer cost is 1,000 cartel coins when it'd be far nicer were it 100

The idea that I listed every change I would make is curious. The range of things that I, or anyone really who is in charge and wants to improve things, should like to alter would be much too vast for a forum post.

46 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

As for things taking an hour to do, bit cavalier of an estimate:

The job I want is directing the whole thing. Is it possible or even likely that the technical scope is more involved than I understand? Sure. But since it's all moot as this is just for entertainment anyway, I'm not too concerned.

The reality is there are quicker, smaller fixes and additions they can do, and larger sweeping ones. And one of my central contentions is that there's an insufficient amount of focus on the former, in favor of their pet project grand designs.

If you're telling me it'll take them two weeks to change an ignore list value from 100 to 999999, I doubt it, but you're the expert so sure. Which means that if it takes that long to fix value changes, how much less realistic is it for them to do anything large?

Edited May 26, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[Jdast]

Sharp,

Like others have mentioned, I applaud you for an extremely well-written and organized post. You cover a lot of points and I'll respond to several. Broadly speaking, though, I agree with Xor that many of your priorities don't synch up with mine. I also concur that your OP is a bit cavalier with a dash of hubris thrown in (perhaps intentionally) on how easy some of the changes you propose would be, particularly since if you are appointed head honcho you would still be dealing with a limited set of resources.

The Good

--Completely agree they should update the rewards for the rotating events.

--Completely agree it's annoying that the gearing system lurches from one extreme to another depending on the proclivities of the current lead game designer. I have no qualms saying that the gearing system at the beginning of 7.0 made me quit. I didn't return until a new lead game designer was promoted and changes were made. I'm fairly (operative term 'fairly') happy now with the gearing system, and I'm glad they are getting rid of at least one of the currencies in 7.3. Still, 7.1 and 7.2 were huge steps in the right direction.

--I also got tired of the 'end of the galaxy and all life as we know it' point you make. With that said, however, we haven't had that since December 11, 2018 when Jedi Under Siege was released. For the past 4 1/2 years, it's been a resource battle between the Republic and the Empire.

The Indifferent / Question of Priorities

--I understand and respect that a number of people like PvP and GSF. I do neither in this game. I detest GSF and I get my PvP fix in Elder Scrolls Online. But sure, both could probably use some love.

--Sprinkling a few 5 minute individual class stories like they did on Rishi in Shadow of Revan might be nice, but not sure it is worth the resource investment.

The Ugly

I took the time to read your linked post on controlling inflation and the economy. I can assure the entire SWTOR community, Hand to Yoda and as the Force is my witness...

If anything approaching the credits caps, and even worse, the tax scheme(s) you propose are implemented, I would crash my fabulous pleasure barge into a Sarlacc Pit at warp speed and unsub. I would very happily just play ESO exclusively (a game I like as much) and never look back. 

Put bluntly, I wouldn't cry -- I would snicker and save a wonderful, grotesquely expensive bottle of Alderannian Nectar-Infused vodka to make some delicious martinis. It's hard to say whether I would enjoy the martinis more or the overwhelming sense of schadenfreude I would feel when the game crashes and burns. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on how many would leave. I think there would an exodus en masse.

Dasty

Edited May 26, 2023 by Jdast
Clarity

[xordevoreaux]

15 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

Since the Republic and SIth Empire struggle for centuries, I'd say they can swap over-and-over again a huge number of times.

Sure. Doesn't make the play any more interesting.

[xordevoreaux]

19 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

The reality is KotET/KotFE was badly made.

Ah, no. That's an opinion.

[Ardrossan]

1 hour ago, xordevoreaux said:

Ah, no. That's an opinion.

Compared to vanilla--or even RotHC--it was garbage. That's an opinion that from my vantage seems to be backed by common consensus, in the same way that the common consensus is that Mass Effect 3 had dumb endings. This is where you typically would go "I don't play those games" and I would say "I don't care, it's an example and you can google it if you're unclear about the context." 

This might shock you, but it's possible to detest the Knights expansions and also detest the current storyline. Because they are one and the same. Just like KOTFE, the devs have simply reused a villain from vanilla (Malgus, Vitiate) because they couldn't be bothered to actually think of anything creative. And because their creative vision is so unoriginal, just cannibalizing previous iterations--exactly as you claim--the story they're creating, just like KOTFE/ET's story, is incoherent. We don't know how the saboteur arc will end and I suspect neither does bioware! Just like they had no idea how KOTFE's arc would end and had to keep tacking things on like Echoes of Oblivion because they haven't had an original thought since...idk, Makeb? 

What people hated so much about the Knights expansions wasn't mainly the story, it was the mechanics like the skytroopers and the chapters and alliance alerts and mute companions, the problem with the story is that it had all this buildup and went nowhere, but that was the case for a lot of the endgame storylines, it just became more magnified because of the epic scope. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Ardrossan
more rak

[sharpenedstick]

3 hours ago, Jdast said:

Put bluntly, I wouldn't cry -- I would snicker and save a wonderful, grotesquely expensive bottle of Alderannian Nectar-Infused vodka to make some delicious martinis. It's hard to say whether I would enjoy the martinis more or the overwhelming sense of schadenfreude I would feel when the game crashes and burns. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on how many would leave. I think there would an exodus en masse.

This response is partially due to the insufficiency of your grasp of economics, but also partially because elements of the credit conversion rewards were not spelled out. The concept that a single forum post should encompass every single element of a proposal is baffling to me, but a common expectation to many of you. Curious, but a useful reminder of the nature of perspective.

First, the number of super wealthy is very small, so there would be no large scale exodus. And in fact, for every whale who departed, the remaining plutocrats would see the value of their assets rise through attrition.

Your response is a failure to understand basic economic concepts.

First, credits, like any medium of exchange, are simply a way to facilitate conversions from one party to another. Since I propose a reward trade in system, your wealth could remain the same even if your credit count declined, because mediums of exchange are fungible. So, and calling these for lack of a better term at the moment, your "reward tokens" (in whatever form they were, so long as they were exchangeable or convertible to a medium of exchange) are a store of value that, like any other asset, could rise or fall in credits but don't necessarily result in any loss of wealth. Where plutocrats might see a decline in wealth is if they selected rewards that weren't fungible, such as anything BoP/BoL, but even then they received value especially if the rewards were not available further.

Secondly, even if the total number of credits declines, the purchasing power of those credits would increase. This is the rationale behind all currency revaluations. It is a known and effective mechanism in economic theory. Value is retained because there are rewards attached to "losing" the excess credits, so even if it were the case that everyone exited the revamp with the same amount of credits (which isn't the proposal), those who lost a greater number of credits could still retain their value as described above.

Thirdly, since guild banks provide a "tax shelter" and people derive value from their guild perks, and many people run vanity guilds that are just extra space for themselves, it's yet another value storehouse. But since the credits are only usable for guild purposes, it succeeds in reducing the money supply.

Fourthly, even if some plutocrat decided, out of ignorance or stubbornness or apathy not to redeem any of their potentially excess credits, and even if there were no "stopgap" that automatically granted some reward (even if not what they might have picked), they would benefit, as the player base as a whole does, by an improved and healthier economy.

Fifth, plutocrats are more favorably positioned to convert their credits into other storehouses of value should they prefer to do so rather than go into the credit conversion reward system. In other words, they could spend their fortunes "stocking up" on desirable goods for future exchange. Even though when it comes time to sell those items they will get fewer credits in an absolute sense, if the purchasing power of those credits are the same, no value has been lost.

Reducing the economy of the game to the number of credits that exist, and the number of credits you have, is simplistic in the extreme. Combating inflation does not necessarily have to result in any loss of wealth. In the real world it almost always does, but video game economies have several advantages over real ones, and one of the most significant is the ability to create other storehouses of wealth and other mediums of exchange easily and with little damage to wider society (in a game's case, the game's society).

[Nee-Elder]

1 hour ago, Ardrossan said:

Compared to vanilla--or even RotHC--it was garbage.

That's an opinion that from my vantage seems to be backed by common consensus,

Sorry but lol  "common consensus" .  Even if there was such a thing, how would you quantify it?

Truth is, just like nearly everything on the interwebs,  it's probably  split 50/50  love/hate with  KOTFE/KOTET.

For myself, i got lucky and not only managed to avoid all *spoilers*  before starting those Chapters  fresh but also waited to run them my 1st time all together in a row  nonstop straight thru  ( rather than having to wait month-by-month ) .   As such, i personally had a total blast and found them to be epic & unique ( in both the cut-scenes as well as newfound mechanics, like Walker battles and Disguised-at-the-party  and such ) .   So much that i not only completed them solo on mastermode twice , but have also played thru each Chapter again & again  on storymode for 8 of my ALTs, so that all of my subsequent different 'choices' mattered more to me per each character's Class & Alignment.

Furthermore, the pre-launch cinematic trailers for both KOTFE & KOTET  were very well done imo ( by 'Blur Studios'  , who i believe also did the original cinematics back in 2011  , iirc )

So yeah, opinions vary.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[sharpenedstick]

Accurate polling regarding public opinion re:KotET/KotFE is not available, and even if it were many people would disregard it in favor of their own preferences. So nobody can truly say what the community as a whole's reaction to it is.

But several factors indicate that there's no great burning desire for more Zakuul content. None individually is conclusive, but taken as a whole are convincing for me.

1. Player base has declined over time. Now, attrition is very standard in MMOs, and it comes and goes in waves. But if Zakuul were so magnificently awesome, it would induce people to stay and more people to come and see how great it is. It has not.

2. Once KotET/KotFE ended, we immediately went back to imp/pub. Every story advance since then has been imp/pub. We haven't looked back at Zakuul at all, and while I can't say with absolute certainty that nobody has asked for it, you don't see much forum presence for "please take us back to Zakuul!!!!!" In fact, my OP has several ways to return to Zakuul and that's almost unique for these boards.

3. The KotET/KotFE model of the game with its chapter-based release and storytelling was abandoned. If it had been a great success, it would have been continued.

4. The option to skip Zakuul exists and, anecdotally, is very commonly taken while grinding alts. Nobody would skip unadulterated awesomeness.

5. Despite the fact that we saved everyone from an IMMORTAL GALAXY EATING FORCE GHOST, nobody mentions it anymore. The defeat and subjugation of the Republic and the Empire, the occupation of the galaxy, what became of the former Eternal Empire, none of this is a topic of any interest to anyone in the continuing story. Why is that, if the player base loves KotET/KotFE?

KotET/KotFE was not well done. I'm sorry. I know some people like it, and individual pieces or concepts were neat, but taken as a whole the game play was bad and the scale of the story absurd at the time, and problematic for everything after.

Which is why we've never looked back. And that, in the end, is the most telling indicator that we as a community do not want it.
 

Anyway, off for Memorial Day vacations. When I get back, if I've got a message from EAware, we'll talk!

[Jdast]

10 hours ago, sharpenedstick said:

This response is partially due to the insufficiency of your grasp of economics, but also partially because elements of the credit conversion rewards were not spelled out. The concept that a single forum post should encompass every single element of a proposal is baffling to me, but a common expectation to many of you. Curious, but a useful reminder of the nature of perspective.

First, the number of super wealthy is very small, so there would be no large scale exodus. And in fact, for every whale who departed, the remaining plutocrats would see the value of their assets rise through attrition.

Your response is a failure to understand basic economic concepts.

First, credits, like any medium of exchange, are simply a way to facilitate conversions from one party to another. Since I propose a reward trade in system, your wealth could remain the same even if your credit count declined, because mediums of exchange are fungible. So, and calling these for lack of a better term at the moment, your "reward tokens" (in whatever form they were, so long as they were exchangeable or convertible to a medium of exchange) are a store of value that, like any other asset, could rise or fall in credits but don't necessarily result in any loss of wealth. Where plutocrats might see a decline in wealth is if they selected rewards that weren't fungible, such as anything BoP/BoL, but even then they received value especially if the rewards were not available further.

Secondly, even if the total number of credits declines, the purchasing power of those credits would increase. This is the rationale behind all currency revaluations. It is a known and effective mechanism in economic theory. Value is retained because there are rewards attached to "losing" the excess credits, so even if it were the case that everyone exited the revamp with the same amount of credits (which isn't the proposal), those who lost a greater number of credits could still retain their value as described above.

Thirdly, since guild banks provide a "tax shelter" and people derive value from their guild perks, and many people run vanity guilds that are just extra space for themselves, it's yet another value storehouse. But since the credits are only usable for guild purposes, it succeeds in reducing the money supply.

Fourthly, even if some plutocrat decided, out of ignorance or stubbornness or apathy not to redeem any of their potentially excess credits, and even if there were no "stopgap" that automatically granted some reward (even if not what they might have picked), they would benefit, as the player base as a whole does, by an improved and healthier economy.

Fifth, plutocrats are more favorably positioned to convert their credits into other storehouses of value should they prefer to do so rather than go into the credit conversion reward system. In other words, they could spend their fortunes "stocking up" on desirable goods for future exchange. Even though when it comes time to sell those items they will get fewer credits in an absolute sense, if the purchasing power of those credits are the same, no value has been lost.

Reducing the economy of the game to the number of credits that exist, and the number of credits you have, is simplistic in the extreme. Combating inflation does not necessarily have to result in any loss of wealth. In the real world it almost always does, but video game economies have several advantages over real ones, and one of the most significant is the ability to create other storehouses of wealth and other mediums of exchange easily and with little damage to wider society (in a game's case, the game's society).

I am not going to whip out my curriculum vitae to establish my academic / professional bona fides and credentials.  So, I'll just ignore your snide remarks and present my arguments.

1. You have no idea the ratio of whales to plutocrats to plebes.

2. Your fungibility point is inane. You have no idea what I consider valuable. What if I don't like what the reward tokens offer? Are you going to limit the items available? What happens when new forms of valuable consumables are introduced; e.g. a new tier of augments and mats needed to craft them, which seems inevitable at some point? You have inherently, by definition, limited my purchasing power.

3. Your relative purchasing power misses a critical point -- the time invested to accrue those credits and the disincentivizing impact to keep playing your system would have. 

4. Your guild tax shelter point is irrelevant. I don't want a system limiting what I can use guild credits for. Yes, your proposal would limit the credit supply, but I don't want that to happen via this mechanism. My credits, our guild's credits -- our choice how to use them.

5. I will combine your last points on plutocracy and explain the failure of your relative purchasing power argument in more detail since you basically circle back and repeat it at the end.

It is myopic to think it is only about relative purchasing power. It is also about time invested. A newer player, once your system is implemented, will catch up to me very, very quickly. You are inherently devaluing my time spent. Your tax system if I go over the cap is so retrograde it means I would simply stop playing for that week. In my case, and I believe many others, would simply leave the game entirely.

I agree with your point that video game economies have advantages over real ones but for a reason you completely miss. There are no barriers to entry other than time. This is not some highly vertically integrated industry facilitating oligopolistic collusion to hike prices. The OEM / RPM market in SWTOR is the perfect demonstration of this point.

Your "storehouses of wealth and other mediums of exchange" point is moot. Your proposal limits what I can do with my storehouse and I don't want you dictating the various forms / types of mediums of exchange which you mistakenly assume are fungible.

I'm not going to debate economics with you any further at this point. We've both presented our views and I feel very comfortable allowing other forum-goers decide for themselves who has the better argument. Of course, the issue is irrelevant because there is no way Bioware is going to adopt your proposal. 

Your proposals would certainly limit credits. Then again, you can also cure a headache by lopping of the head.

<<sips martini>>

Dasty

Edited May 26, 2023 by Jdast
Clarity / Typos

[Bigfallenstar]

This reads like those face book moms who think they know more than doctors. I don't what's worst: The fact he actually had the gall to post this, or the people who are taking it seriously all because he mentioned better communication.

[Jdast]

7 minutes ago, Bigfallenstar said:

This reads like those face book moms who think they know more than doctors. I don't what's worst: The fact he actually had the gall to post this, or the people who are taking it seriously all because he mentioned better communication.

Not one person, myself included, disagreed with his point about better communication. I was very methodical in my first reply and even pointed our areas of agreement in his laundry list of proposals. In fact, I even complimented him on his post (as did others). The only point I disagree with him on is his proposal to fix inflation. 

Of course, if my posts irritate you that much, put me on ignore. That might be the best option.

Dasty

Edited May 26, 2023 by Jdast

[Ardrossan]

1 hour ago, Nee-Elder said:

Sorry but lol  "common consensus" .  Even if there was such a thing, how would you quantify it?

Truth is, just like nearly everything on the interwebs,  it's probably  split 50/50  love/hate with  KOTFE/KOTET.

For myself, i got lucky and not only managed to avoid all *spoilers*  before starting those Chapters  fresh but also waited to run them my 1st time all together in a row  nonstop straight thru  ( rather than having to wait month-by-month ) .   As such, i personally had a total blast and found them to be epic & unique ( in both the cut-scenes as well as newfound mechanics, like Walker battles and Disguised-at-the-party  and such ) .   So much that i not only completed them solo on mastermode twice , but have also played thru each Chapter again & again  on storymode for 8 of my ALTs, so that all of my subsequent different 'choices' mattered more to me per each character's Class & Alignment.

Furthermore, the pre-launch cinematic trailers for both KOTFE & KOTET  were very well done imo ( by 'Blur Studios'  , who i believe also did the original cinematics back in 2011  , iirc )

So yeah, opinions vary.

I fully acknowledge that you and Xor love these awful expansions and have said so many times. I've never heard anyone else say so, either here or in-game. I have also played through all eight of the classes through it, and imo there should be a cheevo not just for playing them but specifically for enduring such horrid writing and dreadful mechanics like the walker 8 freaking times. Thanks for reminding me that party chapter exists, I had nearly scrubbed it from my brain. 

I can agree that it was visually appealing, which is great camouflage.

[Ardrossan]

14 minutes ago, Bigfallenstar said:

This reads like those face book moms who think they know more than doctors. I don't what's worst: The fact he actually had the gall to post this, or the people who are taking it seriously all because he mentioned better communication.

My first post was sarcastic  but subsequent posts dumping on KOTFE were genuine. 

[Bigfallenstar]

8 minutes ago, Jdast said:

Not one person, myself included, disagreed with his point about better communication. I was very methodical in my first reply and even pointed our areas of agreement in his laundry list of proposals. In fact, I even complimented him on his post (as did others). The only point I disagree with him on is his proposal to fix inflation. 

Of course, if my posts irritate you that much, put me on ignore. That might be the best option.

Dasty

I didn't mean you. I meant the OP.

[Jdast]

2 minutes ago, Bigfallenstar said:

I didn't mean you. I meant the OP.

Fair enough, apologies for the confusion. I even removed my confusion notification to your post. 🤩 

I would point out, though, he is actually quite serious about his proposals to combat inflation. He has written on it before and even provides the link in his OP. 

Perhaps I take the issue of credit caps, draconian taxes too seriously, but he is not the first (and won't be the last) to propose it. And I truly believe it would cause the game to shut down. Something, I don't want to happen. 

E-Hug,

Dasty

[Nee-Elder]

27 minutes ago, Ardrossan said:

 I've never heard anyone else say so, either here or in-game.

lol sorry but i find that very hard to believe.   But since i can't prove your proclamation either way, i'll counter you with this....

Over the past 6 years , i have personally recommended at least 100's of players ( some guildmates, some friends, some randoms )  to go play KOTFE/KOTET Chapters ....and only 1 of them that i can remember ever told me afterwards  "i hated it and i hate you more for telling me to play it!".   ( And he didn't even like STAR WARS  ---Which reminds me: Why do people ever bother playing this game if they don't even like Star Wars ?!  Always baffles me. )

Anyways,  KOTFE/KOTET never gets boring to me.  Whereas i always dread Makeb & Rise of the Hutt Cartel  whenever i get to that point on my ALTs.

 ./shrug,  To Each His Own  i guess.

[TziganeNZ]

Agree with Ardrossan - if I could choose which chapters to play and which to skip in KOTFE/ET, I'd be happier to take more characters through it (got so many currently stopped at Ch. 1 The Hunt because I just can't bear the thought...). I'd skip every chapter where you have those stupid walkers/droids, and the party one.  Painful!

EoO is another complete pain in the.....neck.....it's good up to yet another dream-scape and that totally silly end fight.