Why Quick Travel Tax?

[Nev_aria]

Okay, so here's my thoughts on the subject.  Since it's been banging against the back of my skull and wanting out....here you are.

Theory 1: Incompetence and/or Stupidity.    The people who manage the game have repeatedly shown themselves to be disconnected from the product they manage.  It wouldn't be the first time they did something for that reason.

Theory 2: We're "Doing Something".  My second though was that the quick travel tax was a way of showing that they're doing something without actually making the effort to address/fix the problem.

Theory 3: More Disturbing.   It occurred to me that it might be a way to push new players toward subscribing and/or buying coins (to buy for resale for credits).

Thoughts?

[ceryxp]

You forgot theory 4.

Theory 4: Mostest Disturbingly.  The only way for the credit sellers to have as many credits as they have to sell BW must be supplying the sellers with credits to sell and is receiving a kickback.  Their entire economic plan is to incentivize people to purchase credits from credit sellers in order to supplement their CC sales.

[commanderwar]

I think it's a combination of all of them

I do not think these are in anyway good changes at all, all they do is hurt new players and they walk away.

On theory one, I don't think they know how economy works. 7.0 is all about BW refusing to listen to feedback and are completely disconnected from their playerbase. Not just the gearing system. with a lot of things including the economy. 

I believe in theory 2 because they like to find shortcuts. Keith said in a podcast years ago, they like doing flashpoints tied to the main story simply because it's two birds with one stone. As we know both story and FP players, dislike the fact new FP are tied to the main story for many reasons, but it saves time and money for them. So I do think adding tax is them doing something because they can avoid addressing the issue, saving them time.

I believe in theory three because they shown me they want to push people to buy cartel coins before. There whole reason to why they cut the Cartel coins in half and raise collection prices on GS rewards, is because somehow it caused inflation, which is impossible. I do think they want to push players to purchase cartel coins, I believe that's the reason for the coin nerf and for this.

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by commanderwar

[xxSHOONYxx]

21 hours ago, Nev_aria said:

Okay, so here's my thoughts on the subject.  Since it's been banging against the back of my skull and wanting out....here you are.

Theory 1: Incompetence and/or Stupidity.    The people who manage the game have repeatedly shown themselves to be disconnected from the product they manage.  It wouldn't be the first time they did something for that reason.

Theory 2: We're "Doing Something".  My second though was that the quick travel tax was a way of showing that they're doing something without actually making the effort to address/fix the problem.

Theory 3: More Disturbing.   It occurred to me that it might be a way to push new players toward subscribing and/or buying coins (to buy for resale for credits).

Thoughts?

They are actually doing something about the economy of the game whether you like the changes or not, but some changes are not shown on patch notes. 
On the 64 bit patch they banned a LOT of credit sellers, which is why prices of buying credits have lately gone way up. Last time i saw someone offering selling credits was 10 times more expensive than it was before the ban wave. The biggest inflation issue has always been and will always been bots and credit sellers.
In my believe there is no way to not hit credit sellers and bots and leave f2p out of it because whatever is given to f2p is a weapon bots can use

Edited April 24, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[Eckrond]

On 4/23/2023 at 3:05 PM, Nev_aria said:

Okay, so here's my thoughts on the subject.  Since it's been banging against the back of my skull and wanting out....here you are.

Theory 1: Incompetence and/or Stupidity.    The people who manage the game have repeatedly shown themselves to be disconnected from the product they manage.  It wouldn't be the first time they did something for that reason.

Theory 2: We're "Doing Something".  My second though was that the quick travel tax was a way of showing that they're doing something without actually making the effort to address/fix the problem.

Theory 3: More Disturbing.   It occurred to me that it might be a way to push new players toward subscribing and/or buying coins (to buy for resale for credits).

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's incredibly inappropriate to call anyone incompetent or stupid just because you don't like a game mechanic.

[DawnAskham]

The only thing wrong with the QT fees are Bioware's implementation which does not take into consideration player / planet level.

Player / planet level is considered when providing credits in all aspects of the game (e.g. credit payouts for all activities scale up as player level increases), and is considered in almost every other persistent ongoing credit sink (e.g. gear costs, repair costs, taxi costs, travel to planet cost also scale up as player / planet level increases). 

There is no reason a level 10 and a level 80 on Tython should pay the same (nearly 5K) QT fee to travel across the planet when the level 80 player receives 10s of thousands of credits for completing a Tython mission while the level 10 player receives 150. 

Well, no good reason - the only reason they are the way they are is Bioware being too cheap to do the work required to tier the costs.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by DawnAskham

[Eckrond]

13 minutes ago, DawnAskham said:

The only thing wrong with the QT fees are Bioware's implementation which does not take into consideration player / planet level.

Player / planet level is considered when providing credits in all aspects of the game (e.g. credit payouts for all activities scale up as player level increases), and is considered in almost every other persistent ongoing credit sink (e.g. gear costs, repair costs, taxi costs, travel to planet cost also scale up as player / planet level increases). 

There is no reason a level 10 and a level 80 on Tython should pay the same (nearly 5K) QT fee to travel across the planet when the level 80 player receives 10s of thousands of credits for completing a Tython mission while the level 10 player receives 150. 

Well, no good reason - the only reason they are the way they are is Bioware being too cheap to do the work required to tier the costs.

 

 

There's a pretty simple reason: that's how things usually work.  A service is not priced based on how much money a person has; Uber doesn't charge you more because you have more money in your bank account.  As you get more credits from quests and bonus quests, using Fast Travel becomes a more accessible luxury, this makes total sense towards giving the player the feeling of amassing wealth.  Obviously, compared to it having been free for years the change is a negative one, but it makes perfect sense in the way it works.

[DawnAskham]

1 minute ago, Eckrond said:

There's a pretty simple reason: that's how things usually work.  A service is not priced based on how much money a person has; Uber doesn't charge you more because you have more money in your bank account.  As you get more credits from quests and bonus quests, using Fast Travel becomes a more accessible luxury, this makes total sense towards giving the player the feeling of amassing wealth.  Obviously, compared to it having been free for years the change is a negative one, but it makes perfect sense in the way it works.

This isn't real life, and you know as well as everyone else the only reason the fees are all fixed regardless of player / planet level is because Bioware did not want to spend the time and effort to do it right.

[Eckrond]

Just now, DawnAskham said:

This isn't real life, and you know as well as everyone else the only reason the fees are all fixed regardless of player / planet level is because Bioware did not want to spend the time and effort to do it right.

The game isn't like that either, the only mechanic that is not static is repair costs, which is the most minor of penalties for taking damage/dying in MMOs (it used to be that you literally lost XP/levels).  QT is a service, not a penalty, and so giving it a static price is no different than having a static price for items you can buy from vendors.  I shouldn't try to convince you of this of course, I think you're smart enough to know it, you just don't like it.

[ceryxp]

3 minutes ago, Eckrond said:

The game isn't like that either, the only mechanic that is not static is repair costs, which is the most minor of penalties for taking damage/dying in MMOs (it used to be that you literally lost XP/levels).  QT is a service, not a penalty, and so giving it a static price is no different than having a static price for items you can buy from vendors.  I shouldn't try to convince you of this of course, I think you're smart enough to know it, you just don't like it.

You are incorrect.  Taxi costs increase as you go up in planet level, but quick travel fees tend to go down because higher level planets are smaller.  I QT'ed three times doing Onderon dailies and spent less than half the credits it cost to QT once from the lightsaber forge to the Jedi Temple on Tython, but in doing those dailies I amassed over 375k credits (after QT and repair costs).  The quick travel cost structure is backwards and should scale up with level, just like everything else does in this game.

A better way of doing it would be to base the quick travel cost on the taxi cost of that planet.  Taxi costs 100 credits per hop plus time (to sit on the taxi), QT costs 100 credits per hope plus the addition cost of the first hop to the first QT point.  Make QT function like the taxi interface, where it shows the route, and the cost per hop.

The problem, of course, is that that would cost development time and so we got the lazy implementation that affords zero attention to character level or credit generation potential.

[Ardrossan]

1 hour ago, ceryxp said:

The problem, of course, is that that would cost development time and so we got the lazy implementation that affords zero attention to character level or credit generation potential.

Exactly. This explains most of the problems in this game. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Ardrossan

[Eckrond]

On 4/25/2023 at 6:22 AM, ceryxp said:

You are incorrect.  Taxi costs increase as you go up in planet level, but quick travel fees tend to go down because higher level planets are smaller.  I QT'ed three times doing Onderon dailies and spent less than half the credits it cost to QT once from the lightsaber forge to the Jedi Temple on Tython, but in doing those dailies I amassed over 375k credits (after QT and repair costs).  The quick travel cost structure is backwards and should scale up with level, just like everything else does in this game.

A better way of doing it would be to base the quick travel cost on the taxi cost of that planet.  Taxi costs 100 credits per hop plus time (to sit on the taxi), QT costs 100 credits per hope plus the addition cost of the first hop to the first QT point.  Make QT function like the taxi interface, where it shows the route, and the cost per hop.

The problem, of course, is that that would cost development time and so we got the lazy implementation that affords zero attention to character level or credit generation potential.

 

I disagree, QT is not necessary to travel throughout the game, it is merely extremely convenient, so much so that if it weren't until recently that it was free to do so, no one would bat an eye at the costs or how they are calculated as it would be seen as a speed system for higher level, wealthier players rather than a mechanic that has undermined intended (whether we agree that the design is good) travel and exploration experience for new players.

And yes, the way it is implemented likely is a cheap, quick way of doing so, but I will say there's nothing actually wrong with that, people just don't like it, again because they have the context of it being free of charge for so long.

[ceryxp]

53 minutes ago, Eckrond said:

I disagree, QT is not necessary to travel throughout the game, it is merely extremely convenient, so much so that if it weren't until recently that it was free to do so, no one would bat an eye at the costs or how they are calculated as it would be seen as a speed system for higher level, wealthier players rather than a mechanic that has undermined intended (whether we agree that the design is good) travel and exploration experience for new players.

And yes, the way it is implemented likely is a cheap, quick way of doing so, but I will say there's nothing actually wrong with that, people just don't like it, again because they have the context of it being free of charge for so long.

There are a number of things in the game that are not necessary but exist because they are convenient.  Your argument is a red herring, which is funny considering your complaints elsewhere about logical fallacies.

Most of the arguments against the quick travel tax have centred around the fee structure more so than the fact of the fee itself.  It was presented as a credit sink, but when compared against all other travel costs it is backwards.  Travel by ship used to be based upon distance travelled but was changed to a flat fee based upon the planet.  No matter where you are it will cost 100 credits to travel to your capital world, 110 credits to travel to the fleet station, etc.  No matter your level it will cost 10 credits per hop to take a taxi on the home worlds, 25 credits on the capital worlds, 1500 credits on Onderon, etc.  Only the quick travel structure costs more on the lower level planets and less on the higher level planets, all due to size of the planets because the QT points are closer.

The quick travel tax was billed as a credit sink, as the first salvo across the bow of the HMS Inflation, and yet it is completely ineffective as a credit sink because it focuses credit reductions on the lower levels, where people are not becoming multi-millionaires, and then becomes completely inconsequential at higher levels.  It has been suggested more than once, by myself included (and even in the post that you quoted, so why you are going as if I am complaining about the fee itself rather than the fee structure is baffling) that the cost to quick travel should increase at either higher character levels or by planet level.

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

1 hour ago, Eckrond said:

Perhaps exercise the possibility in your mind that people simply disagree with your perspective... and just accept that, perhaps, you are not right about everything you believe.

[Eckrond]

51 minutes ago, ceryxp said:

There are a number of things in the game that are not necessary but exist because they are convenient.  Your argument is a red herring, which is funny considering your complaints elsewhere about logical fallacies.

Most of the arguments against the quick travel tax have centred around the fee structure more so than the fact of the fee itself.  It was presented as a credit sink, but when compared against all other travel costs it is backwards.  Travel by ship used to be based upon distance travelled but was changed to a flat fee based upon the planet.  No matter where you are it will cost 100 credits to travel to your capital world, 110 credits to travel to the fleet station, etc.  No matter your level it will cost 10 credits per hop to take a taxi on the home worlds, 25 credits on the capital worlds, 1500 credits on Onderon, etc.  Only the quick travel structure costs more on the lower level planets and less on the higher level planets, all due to size of the planets because the QT points are closer.

The quick travel tax was billed as a credit sink, as the first salvo across the bow of the HMS Inflation, and yet it is completely ineffective as a credit sink because it focuses credit reductions on the lower levels, where people are not becoming multi-millionaires, and then becomes completely inconsequential at higher levels.  It has been suggested more than once, by myself included (and even in the post that you quoted, so why you are going as if I am complaining about the fee itself rather than the fee structure is baffling) that the cost to quick travel should increase at either higher character levels or by planet level.

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Yes, and I think you should take my advice too; I may be wrong, but I disagree with you, and that is not a personal attack. It is not an insult to you that people disagree with your perspective.

QT tax will and is impacting inflation, however much in a small way, it will and is realigning the new player travel and exploration experience, and it is in all likelihood here to stay because the reality is that, while you may be intellectually in the right about some of your points here, none of them are actually all that compelling.  Certainly not in regards to the impact the tax will have moving forward, again because it is a mechanic that should have been in the game years and years ago.

[Ardrossan]

1 hour ago, Eckrond said:

Yes, and I think you should take my advice too; I may be wrong, but I disagree with you, and that is not a personal attack. It is not an insult to you that people disagree with your perspective.

QT tax will and is impacting inflation, however much in a small way, it will and is realigning the new player travel and exploration experience, and it is in all likelihood here to stay because the reality is that, while you may be intellectually in the right about some of your points here, none of them are actually all that compelling.  Certainly not in regards to the impact the tax will have moving forward, again because it is a mechanic that should have been in the game years and years ago.

As you have admitted elsewhere, this change does not matter to you. That being the case, it does not matter whether you find the arguments compelling because it is not up to you. 

There seems to be some confusion among the players who are busy defending (or so they assume) bioware's position, that those of us who don't like the change must persuade them to agree with us. Let me clear the air for you: you are not bioware. You have no power to make the desired change. You are arguing with us simply to argue, and whenever your motives or tactics are pointed out you resort to this defensive "personal attacks" rhetoric. I acknowledge that you may be offended by some of this back and forth, but imo there is no personal attack being made here, because it isn't personal--because your apathy isn't relevant to the topic. 

[Shayddow]

Quote

 

 

 

There's a pretty simple reason: that's how things usually work.  A service is not priced based on how much money a person has

A service isn't (although sometimes in the case of hospitals they can "rate" you to charge a lower fee-some non-for profit charitable institutions do this as well), but a graduated income tax is. 

[Scrots]

I blame the Illuminati.

[parchedgoose]

I blame Monkey people and Crab People.   Also the lack of Economics 101 in a diverse and everchanging universal market system such as ours.

[Traceguy]

On 5/8/2023 at 6:55 PM, parchedgoose said:

Also the lack of Economics 101 in a diverse and everchanging universal market system such as ours.

Econ 101 should be a requirement for Highschool Diploma/GED 

[Shayddow]

I blame people that don't even play the game that think this will help the situation.

It won't.

It only alienates players.

Charging for quick travel on beginner planets is beyond stupid.

[Bigfallenstar]

14 hours ago, Traceguy said:

Econ 101 should be a requirement for Highschool Diploma/GED 

Making highschoolers learn about taxes, or implementing any other supposed 101's isn't going to make them upstanding citizens. Suddenly, everyone's became a tax expert over night when it came to quick travel when, again, people are just being dramatic and blowing it out of proportion.

[Faefrost]

It's actually not a bad way to strip a large amount of Credits out of the economy, without having a large impact on most. The problem is Credits enter the game economy several orders of magnitude faster than they exit it. This is part of the cause of the huge GTN inflation. They need some common tasks that take a little bit out every time we do something.

Now the one mistake they did make is it should only kick in after the starter planets or level 20. 

[Traceguy]

14 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Making highschoolers learn about taxes, or implementing any other supposed 101's isn't going to make them upstanding citizens. 

I don't care about citizens, I care about the developers in this game thinking they know what's what about economies. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Traceguy