1. There is nothing wrong with the economy; 2. To change it you must control the exchange rate

[FlatTax]

On 4/3/2023 at 7:18 AM, SteveTheCynic said:

FT's view is that everything that *allows* getting the best gear by spending cash in some way is Pay To Win, even if you can obtain the same best gear by in-game methods.  (That is, if there are two routes, one by gameplay and one by converting cash to CCs to CM items to credits, the game is P2W.)

No idea where League of Angels or Perfect World, or even worse, Game of War: Fire Age would fit on that scale, nor how to distinguish them from SWTOR's two-paths-to-the-same-stuff thing.

That's right.

A monetized system has one purpose: drive cash sales. Any 'free' path in a monetized system shares that purpose: frustrate players into cash sales.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

9 minutes ago, FlatTax said:

That's right.

A monetized system has one purpose: drive cash sales. Any 'free' path in a monetized system shares that purpose: frustrate players into cash sales.

Actual pay to win games require you to pay real cash (over and above a simple subscription or buying the base game) to get better gear.

Swtor isn't pay to win.   You do need a subscription to get the max gear though (for level only) and a sub certainly makes it easier to get credits and to craft you own augments compared to being preferred, but ... it's a business.  At some point EA/Bioware want players to give them cash.

Why is this a problem for you?   Swtor isn't a charity.

[FlatTax]

5 minutes ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

Actual pay to win games require you to pay real cash (over and above a simple subscription or buying the base game) to get better gear.

Swtor isn't pay to win.   You do need a subscription to get the max gear though (for level only) and a sub certainly makes it easier to get credits and to craft you own augments compared to being preferred, but ... it's a business.  At some point EA/Bioware want players to give them cash.

Why is this a problem for you?   Swtor isn't a charity.

I agree it's not a charity, and don't have a problem with the subscription.

Anything other than cosmetic-only monetization beyond the sub, however, is a problem.

Monetized game-affecting grinds, above and beyond the sub, function like paywalls: you accrue a benefit after the cash transaction which you didn't have before. The fact a 'free' path technically exists is of no matter. It's tuned to *not* be enjoyable, and drive P2W sales.

It's anti-consumer exploitation.

[VegaMist]

44 minutes ago, FlatTax said:

I agree it's not a charity, and don't have a problem with the subscription.

Anything other than cosmetic-only monetization beyond the sub, however, is a problem.

Monetized game-affecting grinds, above and beyond the sub, function like paywalls: you accrue a benefit after the cash transaction which you didn't have before. The fact a 'free' path technically exists is of no matter. It's tuned to *not* be enjoyable, and drive P2W sales.

It's anti-consumer exploitation.

The free path doesn't "technically exist" - it exists. If you find it "not enjoyable" - that's on you. Crafting used to play a much bigger role in swtor economy back in the day and it doesn't need to be crippled even further. Augments are some of the last items people need that are made by players - not by EA. We need more items like that for the economy to heal - not less.

[StrikePrice]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:58 PM, remylion said:

This requires a person to constantly update the vendor value of the CM item to keep up with inflation on each specific server. Two issues will arise if Bioware fails to keep the values constantly updated

1. The CM-to-credit item vendors for a greater value than any other CM item can be sold for to other players. Everyone starts buying the CM item which injects massive amounts of credits into the economy which increases inflation until the CM item is no longer a good value over selling other CM items.

1. The CM-to-credit item vendors for less value than any other CM item can be sold for to other players. No one buys this item because a player can buy almost any other item on the CM and sell it to players for more credits.

If CM-to-credit item is constantly updated to keep up with inflation so the item retains its value, then other issues become apparent.

Best case scenario would result in there being less CM items being sold to players for credits, an increase in inflation since the new CM-to-credit item instantly creates credits, and more players buy credits from third party sources to keep up with the newly increased rate of inflation and lower supply of CM items being sold to players.

Basically this CM-to-credit item would destroy the economy because it would be injecting new credits into the economy where as players to player trading does not inject new credits. When players trade credits to each other, the credits are only changing hands, this does not directly increase inflation. When players sell items on the GTN they decrease inflation via the GTN tax or when they cancel their auction to undercut other sellers.

A CM-to-credit item would not help the economy at all sadly. If you want to help the economy we need to remove credits, not introduce new credits.

Nothing you wrote makes any sense. 

[StrikePrice]

On 3/31/2023 at 8:54 PM, xxSHOONYxx said:

The "credit" is worthless already, for any transaction you either have to trust the person buying/selling or you get ripped off if you want to buy something it usually requieres more than 1 trade because you can only carry 4.2b on you. 

Inflation in this game has been exponentially growing, i went over reddit to check past prices and how the fluctuated.
- 8 years ago a hypercrate was worth on the 3-5m credits depending on how long it was released (keep in mind also hypercrates when first released had a higher cost of cc, highest price i could find was 8640 cc)
- 7 years ago price went to 6-7.5m credits (https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/44myco/how_much_does_a_hypercrate_usually_cost/) and at the end to up to 20m later on the year (https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/4n7cx4/hypercrate_prices_exploding/)
- 3 years ago price went to 180-200m credits (https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/gs25ib/hypercrate_prices_how_much_on_your_server/)
- 2 years ago price went to around 450m (https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/lkiyqf/hypercrate_prices/)
- 1 year ago 1b (by memory, don't have a link so might be wrong in the time frame)
- Now hypercrates are between 10 to 15b credits last i check

Every MMO has inflation, exploits and bots, but this is hyperinflation and it's due to removal of credit sinks under the disguise of QoL updates and straight out lack of credit sinks and how bioware mentality for the past time has been forcing players into activities that generate a lot of new credits plus the conquest fiasco. 
Credits are worthless as i said, any smart person is not going to want to have credits on their account because each day the purchase value of those credits falls, credits are still being printed none stop, and people are not going to want to sell their items unless they need quick credits for something specific because as i said above having/saving in credits it's a bad move because you are screwing yourself. So prices will keep rising and rising, we are at a stage that items are used for transactions instead of credits same thing that happens with countries with hyperinflation.

Because people rather save their items because they know credits are worthless, it is harder for the illegal trade as you call it to get ahold of those items so the items they already have gone up in price, but those illegal items and services are still WAY more cheap than the prices in CC, in some cases you can get 3 times what you would get from the CM for the same money.

There is nothing right about the game economy

None of that is relevant. The only relevant thing is the conversion of USD to CC to credits.

Credit inflation is irrelevant because USD always stays the same against CM. Therefore, you can always catch up to "inflation" by spending money in the CM. For example, you can buy a black/black dye and for ~$10 USD and sell it for 1.5b in credits. There, you've caught up to "inflation". Now you have more credits than the game will ever, ever, ever require you to have. 

[StrikePrice]

On 3/31/2023 at 11:38 PM, Stradlin said:

GTN is supposed to be the heart of player to player trade and the largest singular money sink there is. Inflation has reached a level where GTN is now obsolete and unused, when it comes to plat tier items, various unlocks and so on. Players have to resort to discord channels and trade chat spam for selling and buying the high value items. This, in turn bypasses the sell tax and worsens the  inflation.

You doing nothingtoseeheredrebin.gïf while behind you, theres an exploding inflation that has made main tool for player to player trade obsolete. 😛This somehow feels like such a novelty act that  you'd deserve an achi for it.

Some degree of inlation is completely unavoidable and would be somewhat fine, if players had tools for coping with it. (GTN that  understands big numbers.) Players don't have tools for coping with it.

 

It is true new players aren't in any particular distress though. Inflation doesn't really touch them, unless they get inolved with player to player trade. If they get involved with player to player trade, they make lots of money real fast.  This, in turn makes all the credit sinks that  BW once meant to be significant challenges turn very easy for the new players. Buying SH for 7 million was a huge investment once. Now? If a new player joins a guild, reaches conquest target and  sells the  encryption, he's done. That's 7 mils earned. 

This is a technical limitation, not an economic one. if you could put high priced items on the GTN, people would. Again, the value of items to credits is irrelevant. Only the value of CC to USD matters.

[xxSHOONYxx]

30 minutes ago, StrikePrice said:

None of that is relevant. The only relevant thing is the conversion of USD to CC to credits.

Credit inflation is irrelevant because USD always stays the same against CM. Therefore, you can always catch up to "inflation" by spending money in the CM. For example, you can buy a black/black dye and for ~$10 USD and sell it for 1.5b in credits. There, you've caught up to "inflation". Now you have more credits than the game will ever, ever, ever require you to have. 

First 1.5b is pocket change right now, and second why would someone new spend 10 usd for a dye when they can get it for like 3-4 dollars? Too many credits were made already to the point it has no value so people stock up on items and some illegal places sell everything that is on the gtn for much cheaper than on the CM. It came to the point that saving on credits is just horrible. Letting the inflation keep growing will only help credit sellers and those webpages.

[Diamaht]

On 3/31/2023 at 6:50 AM, StrikePrice said:

You're wrong about the economy

You can play the game perfectly well as a new player. There's nothing you need in the economy to play the game.

It is unreasonable to expect to come into an 11 year old game, where players have spent billions in real money and participate in the "cool stuff" without investment.

Players have spent millions of hours and billions of real dollars on this game. If you want to "catch up" with the economy, the solution is simple. Buy a Hypercrate for $50 and sell it. You will get billions of in game credits. In one fell swoop, you are caught up with the economy.

It is completely reasonable to expect to have to spend time or real money to catch up. 

"Normal" games off the shelf are $70 US. So, for $50, you are getting in cheap. Remember, you don't need to do this. It's only for things that you want.

Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the economy. If you don't want to spend any money on the game -- don't. You don't need to. If you want to accelerate your time in the game or you want "cool stuff", well spend time to get it or spend money. We have.  You're not special. 

 

The issue is the exchange rate

The problem people have is with the exchange rate of Cartel Coins to Credits which is synonymous with USD to Credits. Right now, the exchange rate of Credits to USD is controlled by players in game (excluding gold sellers for now). If you want to control the exchange rate of USD to Credits, it's simple. Control it. How? 

Offer a rotating item in the CM that sells for credits.

As long as you keep the current 1bn credits to 1,000 CC, people who pay money for the CM will not be upset. They know people in game can get items for that number of credits from other players. But, over time, you will be pulling trillions out of the economy. Soon, you will control the conversion of Credits to USD. How? By simply lowering the price of the CM items you offer for credits. You will be able to control prices because players in game will not be willing to pay much over what is being offered in the CM as an exchange rate. 

 

If you want to control the economy, control the exchange rate. The beauty of this solution is that you don't have to make any new cosmetic items. You already have them.

You're welcome.

Well two things.

1. Telling a new player that they need to buy into the game (other than sub that everone pays) in order to partipipate is telling them to go elsewhere.  "Sorry you should have been here 11 years ago" is not exactly a good way to promote your game.  It also flies in the face of their promoted free to play/prefered/sub business model.

2.  Free Cartel items lowers their revenue.  That wouldn't encourage EA or Bioware to invest more into the game.   It would do the opposite.

Also the complaints would simply shift.  Some portion of the player base would be unhappy with what ever specific item was offered up and would complain about.  The result would be a constant barage of "you never offer good stuff for credits, if you did it would fix the economy."

[Ardrossan]

13 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

2.  Free Cartel items lowers their revenue.  That wouldn't encourage EA or Bioware to invest more into the game.   It would do the opposite.

Also the complaints would simply shift.  Some portion of the player base would be unhappy with what ever specific item was offered up and would complain about.  The result would be a constant barage of "you never offer good stuff for credits, if you did it would fix the economy."

If you had been here five years ago, you would have been one of those guys insisting that bioware doesn't need to offer cartel packs or CCs as rewards because "That wouldn't encourage EA or Bioware to invest more into the game.   It would do the opposite." Well, we had lots of forum defenders back then who were eager to tell everyone how naive they were for thinking that was a good idea. And then when they eventually did just that...poof! All the white knights suddenly had nothing to say. 

Who cares if the complaints shift? If we stay with the same example, yes bioware offered packs...with fixed loot so the market was flooded with identical cheap crap, and people complained. And...bioware didn't care or respond because why would they? Just like they wouldn't care about complaints now if they implemented a rotating item and it was mediocre. As long as some people bought it, it wouldn't matter. It wouldn't matter because the problem here isn't people complaining. I realize that as a forum troll who is only doing this to win a debate, that may be what you think is the problem. But the actual problem is the inflationary economy, which this idea would go a long way towards fixing.  

Get your priorities straight.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Ardrossan

[FlatTax]

5 hours ago, VegaMist said:

The free path doesn't "technically exist" - it exists. If you find it "not enjoyable" - that's on you. Crafting used to play a much bigger role in swtor economy back in the day and it doesn't need to be crippled even further. Augments are some of the last items people need that are made by players - not by EA. We need more items like that for the economy to heal - not less.

It's not on me.

'Free' paths in monetized systems have actively sabotaged quality of life. EA/BW owns that malevolence.

I'd be happy for Augs/Kits to remain crafted-only, but the crafting ecosystem would need to be demonetized.

Edited April 8, 2023 by FlatTax
Clarity

[SteveTheCynic]

8 hours ago, FlatTax said:

That's right.

A monetized system has one purpose: drive cash sales. Any 'free' path in a monetized system shares that purpose: frustrate players into cash sales.

I feel obliged to point out that I do not in any way agree with more or less anything this person says.

[VegaMist]

1 hour ago, FlatTax said:

It's not on me.

'Free' paths in monetized systems have actively sabotaged quality of life. EA/BW owns that malevolence.

I'd be happy for Augs/Kits to remain crafted-only, but the crafting ecosystem would need to be demonetized.

It's totally on you. You can buy bread in a store, or you can bake it yourself. Not providing it to you "just because" does not sabotage your quality of life. And no the whole farming/baking industry doesn't need to be demonetized because one person can't be bother to either work or pay for someone else's work.

[FlatTax]

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

It's totally on you. You can buy bread in a store, or you can bake it yourself. Not providing it to you "just because" does not sabotage your quality of life. And no the whole farming/baking industry doesn't need to be demonetized because one person can't be bother to either work or pay for someone else's work.

I see your comfort with pay-to-win systems. It's not mine.

I'm advocating for a better world.

[Diamaht]

Should there be less stuff on the cartel market and more as crafted gear?  Yes.

Would it be great if they sold the stuff off the cartel market for credits every once in a while? Yes.

You may even be able to see them do sales on items for credits at some point, but I doubt it would be on the most popular stuff.

I mean, I assume all or most you have jobs here.  Would the company you work for do something that would significantly lower their revenue?  I'm pretty sure the answer is no.  There might be an occasional one off, but they won't say "OK going forward we will be doing this and we will permanently make less money".

They won't cut off or cut into a revenue stream unless it's being replaced by a more efficient or profitable one.  So maybe a more productive way to make suggestions would be to think about ways they could do things that would grow the business while also moving things your direction.  If you can put it in those terms, where both you and Bioware win,  you might actually get some of things you want.  You might think of things they haven't.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Diamaht

[FlatTax]

3 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

I feel obliged to point out that I do not in any way agree with more or less anything this person says.

You chose an extraordinarily strong post to hang that statement on.

Let's see how it ages.

[VegaMist]

2 hours ago, FlatTax said:

I see your comfort with pay-to-win systems. It's not mine.

I'm advocating for a better world.

Communism only ever looked good in theory. Every practical application resulted in a bloody disaster.

Edited April 9, 2023 by VegaMist

[Ardrossan]

21 hours ago, VegaMist said:

Communism only ever looked good in theory. Every practical application resulted in a bloody disaster.

You spelled capitalism wrong.

I have to keep reminding myself that most of the people who post on this forum are Americans and this kneejerk reactionary anti-communism--when literally no one has even mentioned it lmao--is not out of character for their political culture, but is a pretty bizarre reach anywhere else in the world. Flat's sole focus has been on criticizing pay to win systems. That's it. Anything you infer about their political motivations irl or whatever is on you. 

Speaking of pay to win, someone in my guild insisted that gold augments being expensive to buy on the GTN was 'like pay to win' because you had to pay a lot for them. When I pointed out that this isn't what pay to win means, he quit the guild lmao. Compared to that, Flat's take on P2W sounds pretty reasonable imo. 

But to be fair I could just be saying that since we're both in the same local chapter of the Antifa Politburo New World Order Cabal 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Ardrossan

[tattoohero]

On 3/31/2023 at 11:07 AM, MortenJessen said:

One of the problems is, most new players (and some older) just DONT see it that way. And that is why gold sellers have the time of their life in this game. Because gratification(s) NOW is the new standard for MMO players.

I'm a returning player, one who was gone for a very long time.  I came backing have a few million credits and when I left I could afford things on GTN, now it's a pipe dream unless I buy something off the cartel market and sell it on the GTN which I've never done before.

[remylion]

3 hours ago, tattoohero said:

I'm a returning player, one who was gone for a very long time.  I came backing have a few million credits and when I left I could afford things on GTN, now it's a pipe dream unless I buy something off the cartel market and sell it on the GTN which I've never done before.

or spend time gathering crafting materials and sell them. There are rank 1-9 crafting materials that go for 200,000-350,000 each. You have to search the GTN and keep track of materials but you can make billions buying and reselling crafting materials if you track them properly.

I've been at this game for a little over a month and I am close to hitting 6 billion buying and reselling items I find on the GTN.

[VegaMist]

7 hours ago, Ardrossan said:

You spelled capitalism wrong.

I have to keep reminding myself that most of the people who post on this forum are Americans and this kneejerk reactionary anti-communism--when literally no one has even mentioned it lmao--is not out of character for their political culture, but is a pretty bizarre reach anywhere else in the world. Flat's sole focus has been on criticizing pay to win systems. That's it. Anything you infer about their political motivations irl or whatever is on you. 

Speaking of pay to win, someone in my guild insisted that gold augments being expensive to buy on the GTN was 'like pay to win' because you had to pay a lot for them. When I pointed out that this isn't what pay to win means, he quit the guild lmao. Compared to that, Flat's take on P2W sounds pretty reasonable imo. 

But to be fair I could just be saying that since we're both in the same local chapter of the Antifa Politburo New World Order Cabal 

So many assumptions in your post...  Flat specifically wanted to demonetize augments (which, btw, come in 4 colors - not just gold) which would further devastate the crafters. Communism is not just politics - it's also economical system where essentially government owns all the means of production. Every time EA replaces items that crafters used to make with vendored items, the economy takes a hit. As a result, we have a mess and crazy inflation with the easiest way to earn money being Hypercrates.

Btw, I'm personally not a fan of gold augments in principle - they are very expensive to buy or craft, and next time EA updates the augments (which will happen eventually), they'll become worthless and all the time and money spent to aquire them will feel wasted. But that's a different topic.

[MortenJessen]

5 hours ago, tattoohero said:

I'm a returning player, one who was gone for a very long time.  I came backing have a few million credits and when I left I could afford things on GTN, now it's a pipe dream unless I buy something off the cartel market and sell it on the GTN which I've never done before.

You see, the point is, if you have an artificer for 41 crystals, and take your time to make a few biochem chars for supply of heal and stims, you really dont NEED anything from the GTN unless you do nightmare Ops or hardmode Chapters or hardmode FP's. Augments are really only for that, and I dare say, that the GIME the BiS gear because I WANT it attitude, is also a bad part of the new generation of gamers gratification trip. No, you only do solo content, you DO NOT want that BiS gear, other wise you would really do the content needed to get it (GSF, PvP, Group content, plus more), you just simply want it for free with out effort, and that is also a reason gold sellers are making their living in this game, because materials to craft augments are restricted by content gates, so only those who WANTS the BiS gear has acces to it, but unfortunately they can be crafted and sold, and players use gold sellers to get the needed credits for their gratification trip.

Edited April 10, 2023 by MortenJessen

[DWho]

2 hours ago, remylion said:

or spend time gathering crafting materials and sell them. There are rank 1-9 crafting materials that go for 200,000-350,000 each. You have to search the GTN and keep track of materials but you can make billions buying and reselling crafting materials if you track them properly.

I've been at this game for a little over a month and I am close to hitting 6 billion buying and reselling items I find on the GTN.

This is a sign of a broken economy, not the solution to it. Right now, if you "want" billions, your only choice is to spend real money on it or play the stock simulation game. If you play the MMO-RPG game, you will have millions at best, not billions. Game economies should function based on what players can earn playing the game not a player to player trade system.

[remylion]

34 minutes ago, DWho said:

This is a sign of a broken economy, not the solution to it. Right now, if you "want" billions, your only choice is to spend real money on it or play the stock simulation game. If you play the MMO-RPG game, you will have millions at best, not billions. Game economies should function based on what players can earn playing the game not a player to player trade system.

I have only seen one game where the player to player currency was worth less than in SWTOR. That was because the currency had weight and after a while no one could carry enough currency to trade so it became completely worthless. No one wanted it beyond using it for needed spell reagents from the vendors.

Edited April 10, 2023 by remylion

[StrikePrice]

4 hours ago, DWho said:

This is a sign of a broken economy, not the solution to it. Right now, if you "want" billions, your only choice is to spend real money on it or play the stock simulation game. If you play the MMO-RPG game, you will have millions at best, not billions. Game economies should function based on what players can earn playing the game not a player to player trade system.

Completely wrong. 

You can get everything in the game you need without spending 1 penny. You're just lazy.