Probably unpopular: I feel strongly that some classes need their ability bloat addressed

[AJediKnight]

One of the really nice things about Asssassins/Shadows is that they feel very streamlined. Proc-based classes in MMORPGs are almost always like this - you don't need nearly so many buttons/keys to press when abilities are constantly lighting up/coming off cooldown.

However, there are a number of other classes (Sentinel/Marauder; Merc/Commando) that... really, really have too many abilities by modern MMO standards. And, I want to be clear: this isn't a discussion about your or my "preferences" - you can like or dislike what you like; I can like or dislike what I like. But when I see ability bars...

Like this.

And this.

... and this.

... (none of which are mine), I know I'm objectively looking at builds that are in desperate need of paring down.

The fact of the matter is, nobody should feel obliged to have MORE THAN TWO full 12-ability bars on their HUD in any game in 2023. That's absolutely ludicrous. Certainly, nobody should have a full bar of attacks that largely accomplish the same thing, but simply with different animations, fighting with one another for rotation time. Similarly, classes based on resource building/expenditure should NOT have upwards of THREE resource-builders to cycle through (that's just crazy).

And no, I'm not saying that we should see some WoW-like cull where classes are completely gutted. But there HAS to be a happy medium between some 3-button face-rolling DPSer and a complete monstrosity like this.

I know that the game can do this, because there are classes that are pretty much living in that green zone between 'gone too far' and 'I think you have a hoarding problem.' But not everyone is there. And they should be. 

[Crystal_Mind]

Absolutely not. We just had a pruning debacle. We don't need another one.

And since you're praising assassins for being streamlined and proc-based while listing an arsenal UI as "a complete monstrosity," I suspect you're just not including certain abilities, utilities, or consumables on your own bars.

My own deception bar, for example

And Hatred, in case you play that, too

By what I gather from your linked images, these would be "in need of pruning" just looking at it, but you praise assassin/shadow for being streamlined, so you clearly don't have an issue with the number of abilities here.

My concentration sentinel uses a similar number of binds, just in slightly different locations

Every class has different categories that go on their bars:
1.) Damaging Abilities
2.) Personal cooldowns (offensive and defensive)
3.) Utility (stuns, taunts, guard, interrupts, raid buffs, battle rez (if heals), out-of-combat rez)
4.) Consumables & Other (Medpacks*, adrenals*, grenades, mounts, position markers, social toys, stims...)
*different versions for PvE and PvP

Not everyone needs all of these. You can get by just fine in a planetary environment with 1-2 bars. But people who raid and/or PvP a lot tend to adjust their UI and quickbars for maximum efficacy.

Looking at someone else's UI, especially for a class you don't play, is always intimidating. But saying "it's in dire need of pruning" just because of that on-the-face intimidation factor, without playing the class... no. Just no. I'd much rather they gave some things back (unmerge TSO and Vent Heat, for example) than do more pruning.

[Darcmoon]

1 hour ago, AJediKnight said:

One of the really nice things about Asssassins/Shadows is that they feel very streamlined. Proc-based classes in MMORPGs are almost always like this - you don't need nearly so many buttons/keys to press when abilities are constantly lighting up/coming off cooldown.

However, there are a number of other classes (Sentinel/Marauder; Merc/Commando) that... really, really have too many abilities by modern MMO standards. And, I want to be clear: this isn't a discussion about your or my "preferences" - you can like or dislike what you like; I can like or dislike what I like. But when I see ability bars...

Like this.

And this.

... and this.

... (none of which are mine), I know I'm objectively looking at builds that are in desperate need of paring down.

The fact of the matter is, nobody should feel obliged to have MORE THAN TWO full 12-ability bars on their HUD in any game in 2023. That's absolutely ludicrous. Certainly, nobody should have a full bar of attacks that largely accomplish the same thing, but simply with different animations, fighting with one another for rotation time. Similarly, classes based on resource building/expenditure should NOT have upwards of THREE resource-builders to cycle through (that's just crazy).

And no, I'm not saying that we should see some WoW-like cull where classes are completely gutted. But there HAS to be a happy medium between some 3-button face-rolling DPSer and a complete monstrosity like this.

I know that the game can do this, because there are classes that are pretty much living in that green zone between 'gone too far' and 'I think you have a hoarding problem.' But not everyone is there. And they should be. 

They already did this with 7.0. They streamlined the abilities due to DCDs and bloat.  It meant they put some abilities in a position you have to choose between ones you used to have as baseline.  A byproduct of this is it has made leveling feel much longer and emptier when it came to abilities.  I’d hate to see them make it even worse. And it is your preference or opinion that there shouldn’t be more than a certain amount of abilities. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Darcmoon

[JediQuaker]

1 hour ago, AJediKnight said:

The fact of the matter is, nobody should feel obliged to have MORE THAN TWO full 12-ability bars on their HUD in any game in 2023. That's absolutely ludicrous. Certainly, nobody should have a full bar of attacks that largely accomplish the same thing, but simply with different animations, fighting with one another for rotation time. 

The fact of the matter is that nobody IS obliged to have so many abilities on their skill bar. As you yourself say, some of these abilities largely accomplish the same thing, and so you can, at your own discretion, not equip them on your 'main' skillbar(s) and either leave them out or put them on a 'sidebar'. 

[DarthCasus]

Sometimes I thank the Emperor that Bioware straight up ignores us at times. Bad idea, its your preference, 7.0's version of pruning killed any semblance of fun in the leveling process.

[casirabit]

Use the abilities you want and don't put the others up on your skill bar, which is a choice you can make, without taking abilities from others who may use them.  We already went through this once and some abilities were taken off or as someone else stated we have had to choose between two, both which some we already had, but now because of the changes, we must choose between two.

Edited March 6, 2023 by casirabit

[AJediKnight]

39 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Looking at someone else's UI, especially for a class you don't play, is always intimidating. But saying "it's in dire need of pruning" just because of that on-the-face intimidation factor, without playing the class... no. Just no. I'd much rather they gave some things back (unmerge TSO and Vent Heat, for example) than do more pruning.

I do play both classes, and they are a mess. I'm sorry that you lack experience with other games within the genre - but 'recent pruning' or not, the current setup for Merc/Marauder and their mirrors is a complete joke. I could list offhand like five or six abilities from each class that could and should be merged tomorrow.

31 minutes ago, JediQuaker said:

The fact of the matter is that nobody IS obliged to have so many abilities on their skill bar. As you yourself say, some of these abilities largely accomplish the same thing, and so you can, at your own discretion, not equip them on your 'main' skillbar(s) and either leave them out or put them on a 'sidebar'. 

If you're playing a title with a prominent global cooldown, there is an inherent, reasonable limitation that must be placed on the number of abilities with <10 second cooldowns - otherwise you just wind up with this pointless clutter. And no, nobody should feel obliged to remove redundant abilities from their own bar - that is the responsibility of the developer to recognize and rectify. The implication that anyone should start pulling attacks off their toolbar is, by default, an admission that more work needs to be done.

[Crystal_Mind]

13 minutes ago, AJediKnight said:

I could list offhand like five or six abilities from each class that could and should be merged tomorrow.

Then do so, instead of vaguely claiming that there's too much going on.

You called arsenal merc "a complete mess." What would you change? How would that impact leveling? class identity? raiding? pvp?

[afwhoefuwov]

Obviously nobody needs that many skills to press, but it is nice to know I have these options to use whenever I need them. Unlike Davy Jones, I only have 10 fingers and only 5 of them are for pressing abilities.  

Yes, it would cluster up the interface but if I am new to a class, I want all of my abilities laid out.  Perhaps when I become more experience, I can just "drag it off the bar" and voila, we have less abilities and less cluster.  It is nice to have them all laid out, instead of going to the Abilities windows and scroll up/down to search for an ability.  

This is just like when you're using an Apple Mac with its dock thingy: at first I put all of my apps in the dock so it looks like a giant mess.  Do I really use them all? No, but it is nice to know they are there at my disposal.  And as I get more comfortable, I can just "drag them off the dock" and run an app via the quick spotlight menu.  

[LD_Little_Dragon]

Bioware did a lot of pruning for 7.0 and they ended up mostly pruning the wrong things.   Situational abilities that were useful, but not part of the regular rotation are now missing, or a 'choice' on a lot of specs. 

Some of these abilities were ones classes had and used fine since launch, but suddenly for 7.0 they were 'bad', or 'too complicated', or 'hard to balance around', or whatever nonsense bioware spouted in an attempt to justify the 7.0 overhaul.

I have zero faith that any more pruning/ability revamping on bioware's would be a good thing. 

[Death-Hammer]

8 hours ago, AJediKnight said:

I know I'm objectively looking at builds that are in desperate need of paring down.

No...Just No.

[Taurax]

I looked at all the photos, and, whoever's those quickbars are,, they have things on there that are not considered abilities.  One of them had 'sprint', which I'm sure everyone just leaves on.  The merc one you posted at the end, the right hand side, who puts multiple abilities on the same panel?  Also, I think a couple had what looks to be either companion gifts on a tool bar, or jawa scrap, who puts that on a bar?  

 

I'm a merc healer, and 3 quick bars open, one setup to just be an easy click for mounts, stims, etc.  The other two, more than enough.  So, if those are your quickbars, go back and take off that you don't really need, and you'll find out that you pretty much what you are requesting...two quickbars of abilities people use.

[Shayddow]

When I looked at this: Sprint wasn't on the main view, that's leap. Where you jump at stuff.

And it looks like some of them had their Warzone medpacs & stims in their main section. Now, they might have this there because they have keybinds. 

I don't usually use keybinds so I put mine on sidebars.  We don't need more pruning.    I tend to set up my character's toolbars similarly. Although I use a different ones for Tanks/ healers/ DPS I try to set it up in advance so I know what I'm pressing so I can pay attention to the main screen, not which button I'm pushing.    For most I keep healing abilities together, Taunting abilities together, area effect vs single target attacks grouped in the same area.   But everyone has their own  preferences.

[AlainaFlute]

Yeah no. Not a fan of pruning abilities. I'm still upset that my agents and smugglers no longer have the ability to Slice Droids. And that was like 2016 they pruned that away. Still hurts man. Still hurts.

[TziganeNZ]

1 hour ago, AlainaFlute said:

Yeah no. Not a fan of pruning abilities. I'm still upset that my agents and smugglers no longer have the ability to Slice Droids. And that was like 2016 they pruned that away. Still hurts man. Still hurts.

+100 Same here - still salty about that.

[Aries_cz]

Merc/Mando can be decently played with a single 12 slot quickbar, I think the "sweet spot" is around 16 for that class.

I do not have 2x12 quickslots filled with stuff I use all the time.

[Fraah]

OP really doesn't understand the meaning of subjective and objective. 

Infact there is no objective right answer to the question you posed. The right number of abilities in a game is a) different between different players and b) purely subjective. 

Starting your opinion and then claiming it is objective because you have a reason for your opinions doesn't make it any less your opinion or any more true. The fact the most respondents disagree with you shows that your opinion certainly isn't shared among the subset of respondents to this thread, the fact that this follows an ability pruning not long ago which must regular players I knowv(as well as the aforementioned respondents to this thread) on balance dislike, suggests that your subjective opinion is, to the best approximation of objectivity, Infact "wrong". 

 

 

[denavin]

Thanks to BW's abor-tion of the skills, there are now Combat Styles that I no longer play because of the screwed up skill pruning. The lack of intelligence of the devs with the destruction of the skill set has made some of the combat styles almost useless.

By aborting the skill sets, BW has managed to single-handedly removed most of the FUN from SWToR in a miss guided attempt at making game play HARDER than it needs to be, and in the process anger the majority of the players.

The BW dev's need to pull their collective heads out of their rectal orifice and stop applying what they find in said orifice, to the game. We are tired of the never ending stream of crap they call "Improvements", that they keep stuffing down our throats.

 

One player vcs 7 mobs, 1 Over Powered healer and 2 Gold's results in 1 DEAD player EVERY TIME!

FYI....

Being Dead all the time, IS NOT FUN!

 

[xordevoreaux]

On 3/6/2023 at 11:22 AM, Crystal_Mind said:

Absolutely not. We just had a pruning debacle. We don't need another one.

Agreed.

[StrikePrice]

I totally disagree. I miss having all my abilities. I understand the benefit of having to make choices, but I think the problem is you just don't understand the classes. 

[xordevoreaux]

58 minutes ago, StrikePrice said:

I totally disagree. I miss having all my abilities. I understand the benefit of having to make choices, but I think the problem is you just don't understand the classes. 

Who knows what the OP's incentive really is for posting the complaint, but sometimes some players engaged in PvP look at the rotation-heavy classes arrayed against them and subsequently count up their losses erroneously based on that rotational difference, not their opponent's skill in harnessing those rotations.

Were the devs to listen such complaints and subsequently reduce everyone's rotation to guard turn parry thrust spin, game quality would suffer.

Edited March 8, 2023 by xordevoreaux

[Ramalina]

So this is a thread complaining about UIs with more than 24 class abilities that cites three examples showing 24 or fewer class abilites, and one showing 25 class abilities, as terribly "bloated."

 

Yet somehow, Jedi Shadows,  which can have at least 29 abilities, are a good example of excellent "streamlined" classes?

 

I'm struggling a bit with the internal inconsistencies of the OP's argument.

[StrikePrice]

I wish I could post pics of various WoW UIs ... typically there are way way way more things on the bars than swtor

[Deaconik]

Most classes can be played by using like 5 abilities in a rotation and people want to prune more. Annihilation ended with majority of the abilities used in the rotaion being the basic attack. Even more than carnage... like... spamming one button isn't really fun and with more pruning it will be more about pressing just the one button. What is wrong with your?

[elimatorxv]

i still miss pommel strike on my sentinel and the droid cc stun.

sigh