Please Run a Player Survey about Premades vs Solo

[Samcuu]

It's honestly not a bad idea but yeah the whole matchmaking algorithm would have to change. Right now it's easier for premades to get pops because you could have a premade of 3 for example, which is probably close to the average size of most premades. Then you've got to fill in a match with 5 more ppl in premades with no solo players if there's a premade only queue. The numbers would throw it completely off. Right now you queue a premade of 3 and most likely 5 solo players get thrown in with them to create a team of 8. It's a simple system currently why would they want to switch to a system that's more convoluted? 

My fix for this has always been cross server queues. Instead of pulling players and teams from one server pool, the best fix you could get is just more ppl populating the queue. So cross server allows the matchmaking to create games and pull players and premades from 3 different pools at least plus the 2 other European servers (which i know are less populated.) Not only is that gonna fix the matchmaking naturally but it will be better for lowbie warzones as well. 

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, Samcuu said:

It's honestly not a bad idea but yeah the whole matchmaking algorithm would have to change. Right now it's easier for premades to get pops because you could have a premade of 3 for example, which is probably close to the average size of most premades. Then you've got to fill in a match with 5 more ppl in premades with no solo players if there's a premade only queue. The numbers would throw it completely off. Right now you queue a premade of 3 and most likely 5 solo players get thrown in with them to create a team of 8. It's a simple system currently why would they want to switch to a system that's more convoluted? 

My fix for this has always been cross server queues. Instead of pulling players and teams from one server pool, the best fix you could get is just more ppl populating the queue. So cross server allows the matchmaking to create games and pull players and premades from 3 different pools at least plus the 2 other European servers (which i know are less populated.) Not only is that gonna fix the matchmaking naturally but it will be better for lowbie warzones as well. 

The issue has always been the algorithm. BioWare prioritise pop speed over everything else. They either don’t know how to write the mixed queue Algorithms properly or they don’t care. They learnt how to do it for Ranked. So I’m assuming they just don’t care if mixed queue is borked or that the algorithm just doesn’t work when premades are in the queue with solo players (which is my conclusion after 11 years). 

It’s technically possible that cross server could be implemented when BioWare move the game onto AWS (Amazon web services) in the coming months. But how do you compensate for the excess lag for some players if it puts EU & US players together, but situates the instance in a random EU or US AWS. If that’s randomly different each time, that would make your Ping difference for each match. 

From talking to a few tech people who understand how AWS can work, it would seem like it will be good for some parts of the game & people, based on where you live of course. It really depends on how BioWare sets it up. Will local global instances propagate depending on local demand or will they still be semi geographically located like the current servers. 

There are lots of questions about how pvp will work in this situation. But cross server should technical be possibility on AWS. And not just for pvp, but for any instanced group queue. I’d love BioWare to tell us more so we know what to expect. 

If they can successfully integrate cross server on AWS, then there’s no reason to not split the queue into solo & premade.

Edited February 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Samcuu]

25 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

The issue has always been the algorithm. BioWare prioritise pop speed over everything else. They either don’t know how to write the mixed queue Algorithms properly or they don’t care. They learnt how to do it for Ranked. So I’m assuming they just don’t care if mixed queue is borked or that the algorithm just doesn’t work when premades are in the queue with solo players (which is my conclusion after 11 years). 

It’s technically possible that cross server could be implemented when BioWare move the game onto AWS (Amazon web services) in the coming months. But how do you compensate for the excess lag for some players if it puts EU & US players together, but situates the instance in a random EU or US AWS. If that’s randomly different each time, that would make your Ping difference for each match. 

From talking to a few tech people who understand how AWS can work, it would seem like it will be good for some parts of the game & people, based on where you live of course. It really depends on how BioWare sets it up. Will local global instances propagate depending on local demand or will they still be semi geographically located like the current servers. 

There are lots of questions about how pvp will work in this situation. But cross server should technical be possibility on AWS. And not just for pvp, but for any instanced group queue. I’d love BioWare to tell us more so we know what to expect. 

If they can successfully integrate cross server on AWS, then there’s no reason to not split the queue into solo & premade.

I've seen much more educated ppl say that the cloud servers should lessen the ping times for ppl all over the world and should allow for cross server queueing so hoping that's the case. 

[TrixxieTriss]

29 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

I've seen much more educated ppl say that the cloud servers should lessen the ping times for ppl all over the world and should allow for cross server queueing so hoping that's the case. 

I think it will depend on where you’re located, how many people are playing in your location at a particular time & what parts of the game you are playing. 

The Ping will depend on how it puts players together. Remember, distance is the problem here. It doesn’t matter if it’s a virtual web server or fixed server, the hardware has to be located somewhere & people still need to connect to that location. 

If you’re in the UK or France & the people you are playing with are in the US, then someone is going to be closer to the web server & the others won’t be. 

My understanding of AWS is that they have multiple ones all around the world. If you were playing in the UK & there are plenty of people playing while you’re on, then you’d likely get a local instance based in the UK.

But say it’s the middle of the night & there aren’t that many local people online, then you might get put in a US instance that has more people online at the time. 

And I’m not even talking about pvp or other queued groups. That’s for things like fleet & open world. If they were to implement a cross server type queue, that could be even more complicated. 

Like I said, it will really depend on how BioWare set it up. I had hoped we’d get more info, but BioWare are being tight lipped as usual. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[DWho]

9 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

The Ping will depend on how it puts players together. Remember, distance is the problem here. It doesn’t matter if it’s a virtual web server or fixed server, the hardware has to be located somewhere & people still need to connect to that location. 

This is the key point. Your ping will be determined by the distance between you and the hardware the "cloud" server is currently running on as well as the quality of the internet infrastructure between you and that physical server. It is very likely that your ping will change from day to day as the "server" shifts around (Amazon has lots of server farms all around the world for use with AWS)

[TrixxieTriss]

6 minutes ago, DWho said:

This is the key point. Your ping will be determined by the distance between you and the hardware the "cloud" server is currently running on as well as the quality of the internet infrastructure between you and that physical server. It is very likely that your ping will change from day to day as the "server" shifts around (Amazon has lots of server farms all around the world for use with AWS)

Yep. And that would be even more random in cross server pvp. 

Each match could have a big variation in ping. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[black_pyros]

On 2/25/2023 at 2:27 AM, Sappharan said:

Premades need to be reduced to 4man again, though separate queues would be ideal.

Finally something moving the discussion forward, thus worth replying to. 4man actually is somewhat a compromise. Certainly better than letting premades die completely in a separate queue.

[black_pyros]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:10 AM, Sappharan said:

And you're right.  We're all just responding to random comments at this point.  The arguments have already been made.  I think some of us are simply bored. 

I couldn't agree more. I am certainly tired of both reading and repeating same arguments over and over in the infinite loop, and it doesn't help the discussion either.

[DeannaVoyager]

1 hour ago, black_pyros said:

Finally something moving the discussion forward, thus worth replying to. 4man actually is somewhat a compromise. Certainly better than letting premades die completely in a separate queue.

That's not good enough. It's still a premade, and it will still make arenas unplayable for solo queuers, most likely 8m warzones too. 

 

Premades need to be in their own queue and they need to be put against other premades only. If the premade queue dies, those people can move to solo queue and start playing proper pvp instead, where skill still matters. 

[AwesomeTacoCat]

2 hours ago, black_pyros said:

Finally something moving the discussion forward, thus worth replying to. 4man actually is somewhat a compromise. Certainly better than letting premades die completely in a separate queue.

I think 4 man premades are still far too imbalanced, both in wzs and arenas. I think 2 man premades are a sensible compromise that wouldn’t lead to extraordinarily imbalanced matches. 

[Balameb]

On 2/25/2023 at 2:20 AM, Nee-Elder said:

Sometimes, on certan days, for arenas  i see myself ( Sage ) & the same 2 other healers each match for couple hours in a row.

Honestly, i feel like there's fewer & fewer of  us healer mains with each passing update.

It may be something general as support roles (in most games) are always less than pure dps and the problem gets always worst over time.

Now in particular with pvp here, i think healing is really hard. Healers are first to get marked and focused.

Healing takes a lot more time to learn, particularly in pvp.

Oh, and let's not forget how ungratefull some DPS get in arenas; usually blaming the healer.

 

And to not make thiss full off topic. I think a survey will be good. Old school runescape makes a survey for EVERY game change. Having (or Not) separte queues for solos and groups seems like the perfect type of question that needs answer from the actual players.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

On 2/27/2023 at 1:43 PM, Balameb said:

It may be something general as support roles (in most games) are always less than pure dps and the problem gets always worst over time.

Now in particular with pvp here, i think healing is really hard. Healers are first to get marked and focused.

Healing takes a lot more time to learn, particularly in pvp.

Oh, and let's not forget how ungratefull some DPS get in arenas; usually blaming the healer.

 

And to not make thiss full off topic. I think a survey will be good. Old school runescape makes a survey for EVERY game change. Having (or Not) separte queues for solos and groups seems like the perfect type of question that needs answer from the actual players.

Honestly not a great look when Runsscape is beating you by a mile…

 

Had a couple of the worst premades I’ve had in weeks tonight. Really really terrible games with under geared boys against 6 man premades. BioWare you just cannot continue to remain silent on this topic. 

[TrixxieTriss]

8 hours ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

BioWare you just cannot continue to remain silent on this topic. 

I think that’s hurting the game nearly as much as the premade situation. 
Bioware blatantly refuse to even acknowledge the topic of premades. They’ll talk about everything else except premades. It’s like the topic is radioactive for them so they just pretend the ever growing premade elephant in the room doesn’t exist. 

They should have learnt after 11 years that the longer they ignore controversial topics that make people quit, the more it steamrolls & even more people quit than would have if they just communicated.

Its absolutely the worst type of community management they can employ. And it always reduces the games population. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[ALaggyGrunt]

Having a premade-only queue that takes oddly-sized premades, especially for 8s, will require the game to show the size of other premade groups in the queue, or have the game pick players out the biggest premade to swap to the other team if there's a match that could be made if the teams were just that different..

On the subject of their silence on the topic, I think they know what kind of players they're dealing with and don't want to compromise any staff member's personal safety. The kind of player that runs in premades just to wreck someone's day is also the kind of player who'll throw a threatening RL hissy fit at one or more devss because their broken OP toy got nerfed. They're bullies, and some of them will try to bully the devs into giving them their unfair advantage back if they even think it's going away. They devs are in the unenviable position of being the only one who really can take the bullies' favorite stick away and knowing how the bullies will react.

[TrixxieTriss]

27 minutes ago, ALaggyGrunt said:

Having a premade-only queue that takes oddly-sized premades, especially for 8s, will require the game to show the size of other premade groups in the queue, or have the game pick players out the biggest premade to swap to the other team if there's a match that could be made if the teams were just that different..

On the subject of their silence on the topic, I think they know what kind of players they're dealing with and don't want to compromise any staff member's personal safety. The kind of player that runs in premades just to wreck someone's day is also the kind of player who'll throw a threatening RL hissy fit at one or more devss because their broken OP toy got nerfed. They're bullies, and some of them will try to bully the devs into giving them their unfair advantage back if they even think it's going away. They devs are in the unenviable position of being the only one who really can take the bullies' favorite stick away and knowing how the bullies will react.

One reason why I suggested a seperate premade queue only allows even numbers of 2, 4, 6 or 8 man sizes was to avoid odd numbers.
But I do like your idea that it could split up the larger premade teams to put some players on the opposing team if they don’t have enough players or the match would be too unbalanced. 
 

As for BioWare being worried about their staff. Honestly, BioWare have done way worse things to rile crazy players up than discuss premades with the community.
So I really doubt that’s the reason for their silence. But if it is, BioWare should just shut the Company & find a different line of work. Because they can’t properly run a company or game around being worried their decisions will physically endanger their employees. 

Honestly, anyone who thinks it’s alright to threaten violence or do violence because they don’t like what a game developer does, has bigger problems for society & should be reported to the authorities. 

If players don’t like a decision a game developer makes, they have every right to complain. And if the developer doesn’t listen, the players can exercise their right to stop paying the developer & leave the game. Which is what many are doing at the moment because BioWare won’t address the premade situation.

[TrixxieTriss]

How many solo players have been driven away from PvP because of BioWares in action on this topic?

Wether you agree with premade being mixed in or not, I find it extremely disappointing that BioWare won’t even discuss the situation with the player base. 

Just about every other PvP thread is about premades vs solo or it is brought up in posts in other threads. 

@JackieKo How much longer is BioWare going to keep ignoring a large cohort of players who are unhappy with the current situation? The longer you guys stay silent, the more frustrated people get & it turns to anger. 

Plesse stop ignoring the players who are in this situation🙏