Without role mirroring, arenas are unplayable

[JediMasterAlex]

I know that Bioware isn't going to make any pvp changes for the next several months/years, but just putting this out there.

Without role mirroring, there is no point in playing arenas. The fact that Bioware thinks it's fine to match 1 heal 3 dps vs 1 tank 3 dps, as an example, is simply beyond comprehension.

And you can't even make an argument that it was extra work, because ranked already had role mirroring. It's just sad to be honest.

It also would have been nice if Bioware confirmed beforehand that it would be like this so that I didn't have to launch the game and find out for myself.

Maybe in a few years, if the game is still limping along, someone new will take over and make sensible changes to pvp.

[Weswhitebore]

Agreed. I didn't see them saying anything about fixing back filling either for regs, which is now just pvp. Before, it was a mess and would start the match before one team could even get a 3rd player, while the other team has a full team of 4, essentially giving the team with 4 an easy win and screwing over the team of 2. What made it even worse was when a 3rd person would show up finally, then quit/ leave after seeing they are already down 0-1, leaving it down to 2 players again and ruining the match.

[krackcommando]

25 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

It also would have been nice if Bioware confirmed beforehand that it would be like this so that I didn't have to launch the game and find out for myself.

😄

sorry. I'm not laughing at your pain/exasperation. it's just that...this BW, man. this is the great 7.2 pvp patch they were promising since last December when it was clear they weren't adding new content or doing anything with pvp in 7.0. the same company that cancelled ranked WZs about a month after (finally!) allowing transfers, and every NA guild with a rated team paid to transfer to Pot5. they released rated arenas with faction lock. the list goes on. "just make everything ranked! that way the player pool is huge and players of similar skill predominately play each other, and the sweaties get their leader boards and rewards." ok. BW makes everything regs, removes leaderboards, and makes every reward grindable. 😆

[JediMasterAlex]

7 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

😄

sorry. I'm not laughing at your pain/exasperation. it's just that...this BW, man. this is the great 7.2 pvp patch they were promising since last December when it was clear they weren't adding new content or doing anything with pvp in 7.0. the same company that cancelled ranked WZs about a month after (finally!) allowing transfers, and every NA guild with a rated team paid to transfer to Pot5. they released rated arenas with faction lock. the list goes on. "just make everything ranked! that way the player pool is huge and players of similar skill predominately play each other, and the sweaties get their leader boards and rewards." ok. BW makes everything regs, removes leaderboards, and makes every reward grindable. 😆

For sure, Bioware's incompetence should be expected. But still I find it incredible.

There is virtually no downside to role mirroring. The majority of the queue will be dps anyway. Queue times would increase a bit for tanks and healers, but that is it.

Even the most casual of pvpers should be in favor of role mirroring, because it makes matches more fair for everyone involved.

Eric wants to tell people they can link their winrates. Putting aside the premade part of it, how can winrates have any meaning for matches that will have mismatched roles so often? lol

Edited December 13, 2022 by JediMasterAlex

[alasamaya]

Imagine thinking that a leaderboards in the current PVP conditions would mean anything lmao. Premades of 8 are facerolling all solo players. Good job, Bioware. 

[Samcuu]

10 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Eric wants to tell people they can link their winrates. Putting aside the premade part of it, how can winrates have any meaning for matches that will have mismatched roles so often? lol

The premade part of it I think is the main thing here. It's all relative isn't it? If we are both queueing and have a good sample size you and I would both face the same dumb matchmaking. So maybe our win rates would be lower, but they'd still be comparable. If you or I only play in a premade that is gonna make the bigger difference. 

[JediMasterAlex]

17 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

The premade part of it I think is the main thing here. It's all relative isn't it? If we are both queueing and have a good sample size you and I would both face the same dumb matchmaking. So maybe our win rates would be lower, but they'd still be comparable. If you or I only play in a premade that is gonna make the bigger difference. 

True. But the matches themselves will be terrible regardless. I genuinely don't know why anyone would put themselves through it unless they're playing in a 4-man premade, and that would get boring quickly as well lol

[Samcuu]

9 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

True. But the matches themselves will be terrible regardless. I genuinely don't know why anyone would put themselves through it unless they're playing in a 4-man premade, and that would get boring quickly as well lol

It's what it was like pre 7.2 and those matches are actually really 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Samcuu

[JediMasterAlex]

Just now, Samcuu said:

It's what it was like pre 

Well yeah, and regs arenas were terrible before with constantly mismatched roles, which I think is the main reason so many people hated regs arenas.

Also, they were unavoidable before. Now people need to purposely queue for them.

[krackcommando]

7 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Well yeah, and regs arenas were terrible before with constantly mismatched roles, which I think is the main reason so many people hated regs arenas.

Also, they were unavoidable before. Now people need to purposely queue for them.

arenas are not a newbie friendly experience. mismatch roles was a factor for sure. but i think it has more to do with having to be focused down by 4 dps and not being able to respawn but just sit there in shame until it's mercifully over.

[Samcuu]

1 hour ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Well yeah, and regs arenas were terrible before with constantly mismatched roles, which I think is the main reason so many people hated regs arenas.

Also, they were unavoidable before. Now people need to purposely queue for them.

Yeah this is probably true however some of the most fun I've had is in mismatched arenas carrying the team to victory against all odds. Of course if you come up against a 4 man premade it's just a rofl stomp fest, but for the most part in 4 man regs it's just a bunch of pugs and it's doable. I'm sure I'm in the minority but for me those matches were a lot of fun.

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

14 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Yeah this is probably true however some of the most fun I've had is in mismatched arenas carrying the team to victory against all odds. Of course if you come up against a 4 man premade it's just a rofl stomp fest, but for the most part in 4 man regs it's just a bunch of pugs and it's doable. I'm sure I'm in the minority but for me those matches were a lot of fun.

So you had fun because you won despite comp disadvantage, because enemy team had trash players? I don't see how that would be enjoyable

[JediMasterAlex]

37 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Yeah this is probably true however some of the most fun I've had is in mismatched arenas carrying the team to victory against all odds. Of course if you come up against a 4 man premade it's just a rofl stomp fest, but for the most part in 4 man regs it's just a bunch of pugs and it's doable. I'm sure I'm in the minority but for me those matches were a lot of fun.

I can understand that being fun if it's rare, but not when almost every match is like that. 

Also, let's imagine for a moment that the teams are somewhat even in terms of skill. Yet one side has 1 heal 3 dps, the other side has 2 tanks 2 dps. That is just going to be a stupid match. And as I've already said, it's totally unnecessary. We know they have the capability of doing role mirroring.

[Samcuu]

21 minutes ago, Mycroft-Tarkin said:

So you had fun because you won despite comp disadvantage, because enemy team had trash players? I don't see how that would be enjoyable

First off u are assuming a lot. Trash players? Yeah not all players are extremely skilled and sometimes you have to do a little more work. Sometimes you get matches where skill levels are pretty evenly matched and it comes down to how well u can coordinate with a bunch of pugs in chat. Its not perfect but yeah I'm a big regs fan because a multitude of funny things can happen and matches can be competitive af many a time as well. 

[Samcuu]

1 minute ago, JediMasterAlex said:

I can understand that being fun if it's rare, but not when almost every match is like that. 

Also, let's imagine for a moment that the teams are somewhat even in terms of skill. Yet one side has 1 heal 3 dps, the other side has 2 tanks 2 dps. That is just going to be a stupid match. And as I've already said, it's totally unnecessary. We know they have the capability of doing role mirroring.

I dont know how you'd quantify that "almost every match" is like that. In my experience it's not. For the most part you do get pretty fair matches, I'd say about 75% in my experience when im queueing solo. Yes sometimes it's a completely unfair comp and u just take ur beating and move onto the next match. The only times I see a lot of unfair comps is when I'm running in a full tank/heals premade and then u get some unsuspecting pugs who just get rolled, I agree no fair and not all that fun for anyone, having said that tho 4s rarely popped in regs pre 7.2 . Having more players in queue should help that situation you'd hope? 

[JediMasterAlex]

14 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

I dont know how you'd quantify that "almost every match" is like that. In my experience it's not. For the most part you do get pretty fair matches, I'd say about 75% in my experience when im queueing solo. Yes sometimes it's a completely unfair comp and u just take ur beating and move onto the next match. The only times I see a lot of unfair comps is when I'm running in a full tank/heals premade and then u get some unsuspecting pugs who just get rolled, I agree no fair and not all that fun for anyone, having said that tho 4s rarely popped in regs pre 7.2 . Having more players in queue should help that situation you'd hope? 

I queued 5 matches earlier today and every single one was a role mismatch. Small sample size naturally, but that's clearly an indication of how the arena experience will be for the foreseeable future.

There is no defense for it. It's an objectively stupid way to do matchmaking when role mirroring is an available option.

[Nee-Elder]

8 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

I queued 5 matches earlier today and every single one was a role mismatch.

 It's an objectively stupid way to do matchmaking when role mirroring is an available option.

You think maybe it's cuz of  one (or both) of these reasons:

•  increase faster queue pop times
•  current Dev Team hasn't figured out the best way (yet) to code 'combat styles'  variations into the  'role'  algorithm

....?

Edited December 13, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: post was meant as a serious question

[JediMasterAlex]

12 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

You think maybe it's cuz of  one (or both) of these reasons:

•  increase faster queue pop times
•  current Dev Team hasn't figured out the best way (yet) to code 'combat styles'  variations into the  'role'  algorithm

....?

I already addressed the queue times part. It wouldn't impact dps at all, which is the majority of the queue. And as long as there are plenty of tanks and healers in queue, it shouldn't affect them that much either. Marginally decreasing queue times for a minority of players by making matches unfair and unfun is not a good tradeoff.

It could be combat styles, but I doubt it because Bioware already said something about limiting the number of tanks/healers in warzones didn't they?

I think it's far more likely that Bioware doesn't have a single person on staff that enjoys or understands pvp.

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Nee-Elder said:

You think maybe it's cuz of  one (or both) of these reasons:

•  increase faster queue pop times
•  current Dev Team hasn't figured out the best way (yet) to code 'combat styles'  variations into the  'role'  algorithm

....?

and

1 hour ago, JediMasterAlex said:

I already addressed the queue times part. It wouldn't impact dps at all, which is the majority of the queue. And as long as there are plenty of tanks and healers in queue, it shouldn't affect them that much either. Marginally decreasing queue times for a minority of players by making matches unfair and unfun is not a good tradeoff.

It could be combat styles, but I doubt it because Bioware already said something about limiting the number of tanks/healers in warzones didn't they?

I think it's far more likely that Bioware doesn't have a single person on staff that enjoys or understands pvp.

the queue has to account for "groups" of 1, 2, 3, and 4. healers and tanks often don't queue alone. but it's not at all unusual when they do. dps grp 1, 2, 3, 4. that fact alone makes matchmaking a mess. this is before the system even tries taking "hidden elo" into account. and the fact of the matter is that queue/pop time is most important in the casual/regs business no matter what a more "seasoned pvp connoisseur" might prefer. at some point a few years ago, BW did start cleaning up the reg matchmaking for both WZs and arenas. and it was noticeable. I very rarely saw double healers or double tanks unless it was an emergency backfill. 

imo, the biggest problem with the matchmaker not waiting for that perfect role match is that I suspect the arena queue in particular will have more hardcore players in it, so you'd feel the imbalance a lot harder (similar to a rated mismatch). but that's just speculation based on the fact that most pve-ish players want nothing to do with arenas and have come on here demanding a separate queue since arenas were instituted.

Edited December 13, 2022 by krackcommando
typo

[Samcuu]

3 hours ago, JediMasterAlex said:

I queued 5 matches earlier today and every single one was a role mismatch. Small sample size naturally, but that's clearly an indication of how the arena experience will be for the foreseeable future.

There is no defense for it. It's an objectively stupid way to do matchmaking when role mirroring is an available option.

Okay yeah I can see what you are saying now thats definitely a problem. I've maintained since the start of this that the revamp could work but it all relied upon tweaking to the matchmaking system. If this is the case and the tweaks have been done and that's what we are left with, yeah no arguments from me that's a failure. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Samcuu

[Araberen]

Yeah, in pts section this problem mentioned to BW...but, you know, classic BW ignorance.

Ranked, at least, was good at it's matchmaking, you get same roles on both teams. And now: 2 tanks + 2 dps vs 1t,1h,2d premade. Yay! So fun...woohoo

Edited December 14, 2022 by Araberen

[waslaf]

21 hours ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Without role mirroring, there is no point in playing arenas.

^this. played a few yesterday, all had role missmatch. no point unless i want to run with full premade group because then its a default win in 95% of the matches as long as casuals are forced into playing it by the seasons objectives.

[Jarbarian]

We just faced another premade (well, I've been facing premades all morning).

Last match we had 5 players vs their 8.  How is that fun, fair?

As far as Bioware doing anything about fixing the class imbalance, they haven't done so in more than 10 years. They will never do it.

Why?  Because THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT PVP.

[-Garmonbozia]

22 hours ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Without role mirroring, there is no point in playing arenas. The fact that Bioware thinks it's fine to match 1 heal 3 dps vs 1 tank 3 dps, as an example, is simply beyond comprehension.

While I wouldn't complain if they did role mirror in matchmaking, either team in your example could win based on skill. I have been in both situations with pugs and taken plenty of wins that way. If the two teams were equally skilled, it would come down to class composition and/or specialization composition, or a combination of both.
 

22 hours ago, Weswhitebore said:

Agreed. I didn't see them saying anything about fixing back filling either for regs, which is now just pvp. Before, it was a mess and would start the match before one team could even get a 3rd player, while the other team has a full team of 4, essentially giving the team with 4 an easy win and screwing over the team of 2. What made it even worse was when a 3rd person would show up finally, then quit/ leave after seeing they are already down 0-1, leaving it down to 2 players again and ruining the match.

Again, 3v4 is easily winnable based on the skill of the pugs. Similar skill level would be the same situation as mentioned above.

 

21 hours ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Well yeah, and regs arenas were terrible before with constantly mismatched roles, which I think is the main reason so many people hated regs arenas.

Also, they were unavoidable before. Now people need to purposely queue for them.

Many people who hate regs arenas, don't understand the different gameplay style required. People who've done ranked do well in them because they already understand the importance of positioning and priority, but there are a lot of players who don't do ranked (or don't do well in ranked) because they're not as strong with their dcd game/dmg-healing output/etc, that still do great in regs arenas. It just requires a different style of play from 8s and many people don't understand that, so they go in, get mowed down, and hate the experience. 

[JediMasterAlex]

1 hour ago, -Garmonbozia said:

While I wouldn't complain if they did role mirror in matchmaking, either team in your example could win based on skill. I have been in both situations with pugs and taken plenty of wins that way. If the two teams were equally skilled, it would come down to class composition and/or specialization composition, or a combination of both.

Obviously if there's a big enough skill gap, literally anything could happen, including a 1v4. That is not a good argument. If skill is roughly equal, and the roles are mismatched, chances are one side will win by default due to the nature of the compositions. That can occasionally happen even with role mirroring. But without role mirroring, it's guaranteed to happen way more frequently.

1 hour ago, -Garmonbozia said:

Again, 3v4 is easily winnable based on the skill of the pugs. Similar skill level would be the same situation as mentioned above.

In ranked, winning 3v4s was extremely rare, even with the best players involved. It probably happened a lot more often in regs because the skill level was that much lower.

2 hours ago, -Garmonbozia said:

Many people who hate regs arenas, don't understand the different gameplay style required. People who've done ranked do well in them because they already understand the importance of positioning and priority, but there are a lot of players who don't do ranked (or don't do well in ranked) because they're not as strong with their dcd game/dmg-healing output/etc, that still do great in regs arenas. It just requires a different style of play from 8s and many people don't understand that, so they go in, get mowed down, and hate the experience. 

That was definitely a big factor as well. I would go further and say it didn't just require a different style of play, it required you to actually play your class to its full potential to succeed, something regular warzones did not do.

Regardless, your arguments boil down to arenas still being "playable," which we can agree to disagree on, but I haven't seen anything to indicate there is anything better about not having role mirroring when we know it's possible.