Follow-ups on PvP in 7.2

[Weswhitebore]

1 hour ago, sGroggy said:

Conversely, ranked players also should not come into unranked wz with an "I pay a sub and this is just regs so I can play how I want, so I will play as if this is arena" attitude.

This is the attitude that almost everyone has about everything in this game though or any game. The "I have a sub, so I will play how I want", attitude is something I have seen from the lowest tier PVE player, the common ground ERPer, and even the highest tier PVP player, from DK- Fleet chat- Coruscant. This "Play how you want" mentality is often encouraged. What people don't often realize is that there are consequences to that or they don't like mentioning that in an effort not to sound negative. In the guild I am part of there is a dude in our Discord who said "I'm not learning about this game just go flow if player get mad who care it my style playing that what counts". Then wonders why he struggles with simple PVE open world content, like a class story boss or FPS.  Which is the wrong attitude to completely have in an MMO. What they don't realize is that playing the game how you want to play the game is important, but taking consideration of others is also important.  This is especially the wrong attitude for them to have if they ever want to get into serious group content even as simple as a MM FP , it is counter productive for everyone including him and while he may be having a good time, it can ruin others good time, which then in return, might ruin his good time, so it is important to be mindful of others in group content, especially when some of that content requires him to learn about the game. Sometimes, adaption, sacrifice, and compromise is required. This had to be conveyed to him in which he never gave a reply, but the sentiment was widely agreed with guild wide. So they do have a right to do that, there is nothing stopping them from doing that, the same with a regs player doing the opposite, the expectations are different in that case, but still, it's a double-edged sword. A compromise I've seen Ranked PVP streamers or youtubers do is that if for some reason they do regs, like for content or making a guide, they won't play their best class, they'll play something they don't normally do or wouldn't play competitively like Arsenal, Marksman, Hatred, Lighting, Virulence, Pyro, or Rage until they actually do have to eventually play that class. A necessary evil.

 

I'm actually glad someone mentioned this because this specifically is a significant topic not a lot of people bring up or talk about. What do you prioritize? Your own fun and happiness? Sacrificing a little bit of happiness to please others but still do as you please? Put aside your own needs for the needs of others? It calls forth many intriguing questions.

2 hours ago, alasamaya said:

And I trully believe it was a design issue. Ranked didnt pop "all the time", meaning ranked players that wanted to pvp while they were waiting for "ranked time" were forced to do regs. If Bioware would have implemented the option to queue 4 v 4 arenas only for regular warzones without taking out ranked, I unsure you most of the "damage farmers" wouldnt queue for 8 v 8 anymore. 

You're right, it is greatly a design issue. This is not the first time people have mentioned that they should have put in the option to queue 4 v 4 unranked arenas only queue for regular warzones. This also would've served as a learning space and practice area for newer, incoming, and aspiring Ranked players instead of just magically throwing them into the Ocean to swim with Sharks, allowing them to splash around like a fish and possibly get eaten, as the learning curve was a very steep cliff.

 

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, alasamaya said:

I unsure you most of the "damage farmers" wouldnt queue for 8 v 8 anymore. 

assure. and that's probably only accurate for half the dmg farmers on SF. I know I've said this a few times, but I used to hop around twitch streams looking for rated activity, and a lot of the swtor pvp streams were the same handful of reg WZ dmg farmers who don't do ranked at all.

[SaerethDL]

12 hours ago, assatrap said:

People have no clue how toxic pvp is going to become in 7.2... NO CLUE haha. If your a ranked player you already comfortable with this competitiveness.

with so MUCH potential reward gated behind pvp objectives&wins -its pretty much going to become SR Light.

It wouldnt surprise me the least few days after 7.2... these regstar try hards going to start making topics on forum on how bad 7.2 is and that we should revert back to the old system. You asked for removal of rank and introduction of rewards in unranked. Don't complain now 🙂

But But the other ranked players said there is gonna be no competitiveness from now on because there is nothing to work towards and faster progression isn't motivation enough for anyone to play harder. So which is it? 😁

I also believe regs will be a bit more toxic now that ranked is gone, not because yall were any good but because yall will bring that ranked toxic mentality to regs as yall are damage farming then blaming everyone but yourselves for the loss. Good players don't put others down, they put others on their backs without question.  

[Nee-Elder]

1 minute ago, SaerethDL said:

. Good players don't put others down, they put others on their backs without question.  

QFE ^  ,  and that's  pretty much what i was trying to constructively foster a discussion about  in my earlier reply  but you said it much more  succinctly.

[Nee-Elder]

5 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

It would be great if this were true, but it's just not. Some toxic players that blamed their teams all the time were still good players.

Yeah i guess  there's certainly some exceptions  to the idealistic rule.

Still,  imo  it's a worthy philosophical discussion to have.   But probably not one  for this thread (nor this section) to have right now.

[Nee-Elder]

14 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

Also stop gatekeeping ranked: If I want to play i will, if I'm not prepared thats none of your business, you don't get the right to treat others poorly because they aren't up to your standards. This isn't your game.

Bingo ^ , now  we're finally getting somewhere.

I'm not saying  the hardcore (dedicated) Rankers  don't still have  a right to feel resentful or frustrated or whatever  (about inferior players) but i also believe that if more Leaderboarders had just simply  taken the high-road  more often in chat and/or on forums (thereby reducing the whole entire "toxic perception" thing considerably)  then maybe just maybe  BioWare wouldn't have felt the need to essentially remove any semblance of said Leaderboard.

We'll never know of course , but it's gonna sure be interesting how things proceed in WZ's  starting next week.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: it's actually a somewhat layered complex issue

[JediMasterAlex]

5 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Bingo ^ , now  we're finally getting somewhere.

I'm not saying  the hardcore (dedicated) Rankers  don't still have  a right to feel resentful or frustrated or whatever  (about inferior players) but i also believe that if more Leaderboarders had just simply  taken the high-road  more often in chat and/or on forums (thereby reducing the whole entire "toxic perception" thing considerably)  then maybe just maybe  BioWare wouldn't have felt the need to essentially remove any semblance of said Leaderboard.

We'll never know of course , but it's gonna sure be interesting how things proceed in WZ's  starting next week.

You misunderstand. The players that faced the most "toxicity" were not merely "inferior," they were fundamentally unprepared for ranked pvp. They ruined the games and arrogantly refused to listen to advice. I saw it firsthand many, many times.

Those that entered ranked with the proper gear and a good attitude were rarely ridiculed, even if they performed poorly for a time. Those are the facts.

Even in the case of the unprepared, most ranked players did not leap immediately to "toxicity." Usually it was, "hey, you should be using x tactical in ranked," or "when you get netted, you have to break before you can barrier," and other extremely basic advice. It was only when the player continually queued with the wrong tactical and kept getting globaled with net that people rightfully got angry.

[Raazmir]

5 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Which seasons? How many games? What server? You've given almost no information.

 

No one owes you this information.  As was pointed out this isn't your game.  The fact that  you feel entitled to demand it is a root attitude fueling the toxicity of solo ranked. 

[JediMasterAlex]

Just now, Raazmir said:

No one owes you this information.  As was pointed out this isn't your game.  The fact that  you feel entitled to demand it is a root attitude fueling the toxicity of solo ranked. 

If someone is trying to claim that they have firsthand experience to offer, then they should have no issue with offering their experience.

I suspect the person in question never played a ranked game in their life based on everything they've said so far.

It's not a question of what I'm entitled to, it's simply a question of credibility. Again, for the third time, refer to my analogy of the doctor vs the patient that uses google. It encapsulates this situation entirely.

[Raazmir]

You aren't the judge of anyones credibility and no one has to convince you of anything. 

[JediMasterAlex]

Just now, Raazmir said:

You aren't the judge of anyones credibility and no one has to convince you of anything. 

Of course they don't. It's not about me. I'm exposing their lack of credibility to anyone reading this thread. This isn't rocket science.

[Nee-Elder]

5 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Those that entered ranked with the proper gear and a good attitude were rarely ridiculed, even if they performed poorly for a time.

Fair point , and i'm living proof  of that ^ tbqh.  ( as i've mentioned before in other PVP threads )

6 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

 Those are the facts.

i  think at least some of the rage & replies everyone seems to be having lately (on this topic & thread ) is a combination of  personal experiences + alternative facts = overall disconnect (between both 'sides' of the issue) .

[JediMasterAlex]

Just now, Nee-Elder said:

i  think at least some of the rage & replies everyone seems to be having lately (on this topic & thread ) is a combination of  personal experiences + alternative facts = overall disconnect (between both 'sides' of the issue) .

Here are the two "sides" though.

On one side, you have players like me, prum, and some of the others in this thread. We have consistent ranked play over years.

On the other side, you have people that either have played no ranked at all, or people that played ranked for a few games, decided it was toxic, and never played again.

Everyone with any degree of reasonableness has to be able to see that one "side" has more credibility to discuss what ranked was really like than the other.

The people that only played a view times have such a narrow view, with such limited context, whereas I've seen it all. I've seen all the different varieties of "toxicity," and I have a clear understanding about what drove that "toxicity."

I can also mention, I've been a victim of "toxicity" in ranked on plenty of occasions. I was vote kicked for tank tunneling. I was thrown on when going for top 3 at the end of a season. I am not at all in denial about the flaws of ranked, and I can talk about them in detail.

But what these people on the forums do is spread complete misinformation. They generalize and extrapolate based on isolated experiences. One ranked player said something mean to them, therefore ALL ranked players are mean to ALL newcomers! It's the most lazy, intellectually dishonest hogwash, which is why I've always tried to correct it.

[Raazmir]

34 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Of course they don't. It's not about me. I'm exposing their lack of credibility to anyone reading this thread. This isn't rocket science.

The only thing you're exposing is that the claims of toxic behavior in what remained of ranked players were founded on some level.

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, JediMasterAlex said:

This isn't rocket science.

hey! that's my line.

I'm afraid you'll have to pay royalties.

[assatrap]

Now ofc there are a-holes in every gamemode... even with vet Hammerstation so that goes without saying. The only time it get really toxic with ranked:

Entitled newbies who refuses to listen and follow instructions from the veterans:
"I pay for this game = I'M EnTiTLeD To PlAy how I WaNt"

and its pretty obvious on this thread who has those issues. Or people who are clearly undergeared, clueless and just there to farm "crystals" etc.  So essentially its the "entitled" behaviour from newbies is what triggers ranked player who pour in hundreds of hours to perfect hone their skills and effort to climb the ladders. If a newbie is clearly there wanting to get better and does it best to follow instructions&tips he/she would encounter minimum toxicity if none. A whole season can get destroyed in 2-3 games sometimes by these entitle newbies.

Now lets translate that analogy&logic for the PVE try hards to make it relateable:

Arrogant newbie manages to get into a "NiM Raid":
Gear 324, wrong utilities and tacticals: very limited knowledge of the operation and having a hard time following Raid Leaders instructions. Because =
I PAYED FOR THIS GAME I'M A SUB IM ENTITLED TO PLAY HOW I WANT.

" I don't care the players here at at the top of their game and expert on their class and knowledge of the operation". I do what I want.

= then wonders why there is toxicity 

[slowdude]

Personally, I don't care as much about the toxicity of ranked players in arenas as I do about their presence in warzones. That's where their toxicity and destructive influence is visible to anyone who has not played a single ranked arena. Don't mess with us, noobs, but we will flood the warzones. The "I pay my subscription and do what I want" argument works or doesn't work both ways.

[imthespamman]

7 minutes ago, slowdude said:

Personally, I don't care as much about the toxicity of ranked players in arenas as I do about their presence in warzones. That's where their toxicity and destructive influence is visible to anyone who has not played a single ranked arena. Don't mess with us, noobs, but we will flood the warzones. The "I pay my subscription and do what I want" argument works or doesn't work both ways.

A big part of the people "ruining" your regs didnt even play ranked.

[Chedica]

Kinda sad to see any part of a game getting completely removed.

Played in seasons 8 and 9 in ranked both in solo and especially group ranked. Started as a PVE doing pvp for mats and stuff (dont remember what they had us farm in pvp back then but even PVEers had to ar some point do some PvP). I was bad at a lot of things when i started but actually the ranked community helped me git gud. First couple of games in solo i said right off the bat: Guys, tell me who to focus and sorry in advance, this is gonna suck! A player (dont remember his name) pmed after the game and gave me some tricks and invited me on a pvper TS channel and thats when i really got better.

My experience with ranked has been good honestly. Of course, you'll have a lot of trash talk before, during and after the game but that's normal competitive behavior. Personally, i don't trash talk, ever, havent been raised that way, but i have been targeted by those a lot in competitive sports by mostly people who have to resort to that strategy cause they are lacking in skills. It's mostly the same in ranked. I always just let it roll off my back. In swtor, at least you can ignore the extremists that follow you around and whisper you.

Anyways, sad to see ranked go. I don't play ranked anymore cause i lack the time to stay "in shape" for ranked and i'd rather not play than be a hindrance to my team.

On the topic of rewards, it's kind of dumb to expect to be able to have the same rewards for doing easier content as someone who is good at doing harder content. Period. I know the "modern", idiotic way of thinking is "i exist therefore i should be celebrated and affirmed by the entire world" but that's really not how life works. You want the good stuff? Work hard, better yourself, make a difference, it'll pay off, in life and in a videogame. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Chedica

[slowdude]

1 hour ago, imthespamman said:

A big part of the people "ruining" your regs didnt even play ranked.

I see titles, flairs, ranked cosmetics. So, there is little interest in how legit this or that player is. I also quite know that pvp top players have always created premades to destroy pugs. Well, or you need to prove  all the platinum and gold players, who are usually not seen without premade sold their accounts, lol. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by slowdude

[septru]

10 minutes ago, slowdude said:

I see titles, flairs, ranked cosmetics.

If a ranked player takes their flair off does that make them a regular player? 

Can we still use the "ranked player" moniker after 7.2? 

[JediMasterAlex]

1 hour ago, Chedica said:

Kinda sad to see any part of a game getting completely removed.

Played in seasons 8 and 9 in ranked both in solo and especially group ranked. Started as a PVE doing pvp for mats and stuff (dont remember what they had us farm in pvp back then but even PVEers had to ar some point do some PvP). I was bad at a lot of things when i started but actually the ranked community helped me git gud. First couple of games in solo i said right off the bat: Guys, tell me who to focus and sorry in advance, this is gonna suck! A player (dont remember his name) pmed after the game and gave me some tricks and invited me on a pvper TS channel and thats when i really got better.

My experience with ranked has been good honestly. Of course, you'll have a lot of trash talk before, during and after the game but that's normal competitive behavior. Personally, i don't trash talk, ever, havent been raised that way, but i have been targeted by those a lot in competitive sports by mostly people who have to resort to that strategy cause they are lacking in skills. It's mostly the same in ranked. I always just let it roll off my back. In swtor, at least you can ignore the extremists that follow you around and whisper you.

Thanks for posting. This is the perspective that ranked haters refuse to believe is real, yet it was the norm for players that came in with the right attitude.

[slowdude]

33 minutes ago, septru said:

If a ranked player takes their flair off does that make them a regular player? 

By the way, isn't it funny that one of the fiercest defenders in ranked games was banned once? Or I'm wrong? Yes, the reputation of ranked players is hard to clean up. And we're talking about the destruction of pugs, lol. 

[septru]

11 minutes ago, slowdude said:

By the way, isn't it funny that one of the fiercest defenders in ranked games was banned once? Or I'm wrong? Yes, the reputation of ranked players is hard to clean up. And we're talking about the destruction of pugs, lol. 

I think most normal people would answer a question with a "yes" or "no." But that's ok, better to not answer questions that would would make you look dumb. 

 

As for reputation, you seem more concerned for my "reputation" than I do. But none of that matters because you're right. We are talking about the destruction of pugs. Which will be happening tomorrow. On the SF server. At 3pm EST. By elite toxic ranked overlords. Who are ranked elite toxic overlords because they wear a flair (but not flags  ). Even though there will be no more ranked. Hope to see you in que  

Edited December 12, 2022 by septru

[slowdude]

Does it seem to hurt you, that you lost your temper? I didn't ban you, but the developers. But you seem to have written somewhere that casuals do not deserve same prizes for participation, lol. So why are you going to take revenge on the randoms on the server?

Wasn't it the case that a very small group of elite players from the same mode without moderation leads in terms of the number of bans, competing with credit seller bots?

Edited December 12, 2022 by slowdude