Class Balance Changes Feedback

[Nee-Elder]

3 minutes ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

. But i would say it is necessary, to make adjustments

Sure, every once in a while, np .   But  BioWare has literally spent EVERY dev cycle in past few years mostly on combat "balances"  (and gear grinds) .   It's just plain boring, imho.

4 minutes ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

 and believe it or not actually does make the game more interesting. 

uh-huh, well for me i find actual story CONTENT  far more interesting.

But hey what do i know?  I'm the "radical" weirdo who wants  GSF  PvE  space missions/mining/exploration, becuase of this  thing peeps might've heard of called..... STAR Wars. 

[steveerkcanjerk]

1 minute ago, Nee-Elder said:

Sure, every once in a while, np .   But  BioWare has literally spent EVERY dev cycle in past few years mostly on combat "balances"  (and gear grinds) .   It's just plain boring, imho.

uh-huh, well for me i find actual story CONTENT  far more interesting.

But hey what do i know?  I'm the "radical" weirdo who wants  GSF  PvE  space missions/mining/exploration, becuase of this  thing peeps might've heard of called..... STAR Wars. 

We did got for a long while without balance changes 6.0 was pretty quiet for a while and they made very big class changes in 7.0. Back in 3.0 we got alot of balance post release when they went away from the old trees. I think once the mods and such start settling in we will see less of it. As for story content for sure and the profile gives it away but i am hyped for mando stuff tbh. 

[Nee-Elder]

1 minute ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

 Back in 3.0 we got alot of balance post release when they went away from the old trees.

gosh i miss them days ... reminded me of my coveted SWG!

2 minutes ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

 but i am hyped for mando stuff tbh. 

Agreed, so am i.

Anyways, we're  getting a bit  off-topic here, sorry  @Shabir_Dhillon !   /tip-hat

[Aethyriel]

4 hours ago, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Dev Feedback: I wanted to add a bit of insight on this change as it does not come lightly. Since Fury/Concentration is a hybrid spec, we saw that Fury/Concentration was leaning too far as a burst spec and wanted to bring back into balance as a hybrid spec.

it's not a hybrid spec, it's a burst spec. Always was, always will be. There is no such thing as a hybrid spec in game except maybe Anni which serves as some heal option for the group. Stop pretending this is a thing.

 

4 hours ago, Shabir_Dhillon said:

This change also gives more flexibility to the player when they can activate Berserk/Zen.

Actually, this is yet another change which makes it less important whether or not you can manage your Fury (more generally: Your class resources) correctly and then profit from using your abilities at the right time for a DPS increase. All your changes recently hint towards the goal being rotations where you basically just smash your head against the keyboard and then win. because apparently we really can't have Chris the Casual SM raider be upset cause his randomn pushing of buttons doesn't result in the same DPS as those of people who actually try.

4 hours ago, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Gravity Fissure - Berserk/Zen no longer causes your next ability to auto crit. 

Btw - while this changes make your previous statement true to some extent, the fact you'd still skill the critically mod makes this nonsensical again, because due to the Critically mod, you will have a fixed set of skills you want to profit from the crit buff and you'll thus use them after Berserk. So, no, quite obviously to anyone who has bothered to read skill descriptions, this changes nothing in the way choices are being made.

4 hours ago, Shabir_Dhillon said:

This also allows Carnage/Combat to further establish itself as the burst specialization and Annihilation/Watchman to establish itself as the sustain spec.

Except you're nerfing Carnage heavily and also not considering that your weird rotation suffers immensely when it's interrupted. You're also nerfing Anni to below the level of quite a few burst specs DPS wise, so you'll nerf Fury by 5k DPS and Carnage by 4k DPS to make Anni stand above the, yes? Or does it suddenly not matter anymore whether something is burst or dot when considering sustained DPS (nvm the melee part) because all parses available to the players - you know, the things that actually happen and aren't simulated with numbers - don't show Anni above those specs now DPS wise and won't either after the nerfs.

3 hours ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

you know what lets get even more niche representation, NiM raiding community is in this thread

Do you need balancing for the difficulty as presented by Vet or Story mode? No. So, why would that input matter? You can clear SM Ops with 3 players if you want to. Clear most HC ones that don't specifically require 8 people for mechanics with fewer people as well. That's not content that needs balancing.

[Dyne-]

On 11/10/2022 at 1:53 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

 

Mercenary/Commando

• Rocket Out/Propulsion Round is taking Hydraulic Overrides'/Hold the Line’s place on the ability tree as a level 68 mod choice.
• Rocket Out/Propulsion Round includes the utility Smoke Screen.
  • Smoke Screen: Rocket Out/Propulsion Round generates a Smoke Screen when used keeping you from being pulled or lept to and making you immune to interrupts and ability pushback for 4 seconds. In addition, taking melee or tech damage within 4 seconds of previously using Rocket Out/Propulsion Round, refreshes its cooldown. These effects cannot occur more then once every 40 seconds.
• Jet Escape/Tenacious Defense no longer reduces the cooldown of Rocket Out/Propulsion Round but instead increases the duration of Hydraulic Overrides/Hold the Line by 4 seconds.
• Rocket Out's/Propulsion Round’s cooldown reduction from Jet Escape/Tenacious Defense is now the default cooldown for Rocket Out/Propulsion Round.

 

The only thing I have a problem with is granting Mercs immunity to leap after using Rocket Out.

Making an enemy immune to counter play is one of the single worst design decisions you could possibly make. Give them immunity to roots, increased defense, increased damage, a shield that procs when they use Rocket Out, a movement speed boost. Literally anything else. As it stands right now a fight between a good Merc and a Good Jugg goes down to the wire. Giving Mercs immunity to leap with no counterplay makes the fight completely one sided. Your only option will be to run for 4 seconds (and we can't reflect). If we so much as saber throw them after they use Rocket Out they get to just do it again?

Melee players already have to deal with snipers rooting, stunning, and knocking us back into perpetuity. Don't add Mercs to that list. You'll damn us into irrelevancy with a change like that. Especially in 8v8s.

Immunity to leap should never be on the table for any class in PvP. Keep combat as fluid as possible and grant Mercs survivability through other means. if you're going to make changes, please avoid inserting huge gaps of downtime into combat. 4 seconds is an eternity in PvP.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Dyne-

[DougTheNoob]

On 11/22/2022 at 9:59 AM, ALaSZeRO said:

This Rocket Out/Hydro change seems like a band aid solution at best.  Making mobility and critical defensive options mutually exclusive for a class that already sits mid-low tier on current PVP balance seems really lazy. In a meta where stealth classes still reign S tier for being able to dodge entire dps windows with insane CC/damage resist, and healing back to full with multiple vanishes, this rework only makes non stealth classes less viable/desirable to play. If we're forced to take hydro over rocket out, at the very least give us the PT/VG version of the ability with the OG 30s CD.

^This one. Listen ,devs!

I cant bare another season of OP being the best class out there. 

[DougTheNoob]

4 hours ago, Dyne- said:

The only thing I have a problem with is granting Mercs immunity to leap after using Rocket Out.

Making an enemy immune to counter play is one of the single worst design decisions you could possibly make. Give them immunity to roots, increased defense, increased damage, a shield that procs when they use Rocket Out, a movement speed boost. Literally anything else. As it stands right now a fight between a good Merc and a Good Jugg goes down to the wire. Giving Mercs immunity to leap with no counterplay makes the fight completely one sided. Your only option will be to run for 4 seconds (and we can't reflect). If we so much as saber throw them after they use Rocket Out they get to just do it again?

Melee players already have to deal with snipers rooting, stunning, and knocking us back into perpetuity. Don't add Mercs to that list. You'll damn us into irrelevancy with a change like that. Especially in 8v8s.

Immunity to leap should never be on the table for any class in PvP. Keep combat as fluid as possible and grant Mercs survivability through other means. if you're going to make changes, please avoid inserting huge gaps of downtime into combat. 4 seconds is an eternity in PvP.

U mean like it is right now ,but for Juggs? They literaly can make mercs unable to move for a LONG time. I would agree with u if Juggs lose their imunity to knocks tho.

[DamzTheShadow]

On 11/22/2022 at 7:59 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Fury/Concentration

 

• Gravity Fissure - Berserk/Zen no longer causes your next ability to auto crit. 

• Vehemence/Fervor - Critical Strike damage from all attacks increased back up to 10% from 5%. 

Dev Feedback: I wanted to add a bit of insight on this change as it does not come lightly. Since Fury/Concentration is a hybrid spec, we saw that Fury/Concentration was leaning too far as a burst spec and wanted to bring back into balance as a hybrid spec. This change also gives more flexibility to the player when they can activate Berserk/Zen. This also allows Carnage/Combat to further establish itself as the burst specialization and Annihilation/Watchman to establish itself as the sustain spec.

This looks like a pretty big nerf, from what i've seen about 2k dps? It's quite substantial because the spec wasn't the strongest either and was still in a good spot. Also if you went by the top parse, it actually abuses the offclicking the buff to get berserk more often. But that is almost impossible to pull off in an actual fights, and it's quite unrealistic to look at as a sample.
Also if you want to make Combat/Carnage more bursty, well, make it ! Maybe revert it to what it had back in 4.0 or so, when it was probably best burst spec. Now it just spams massacre heh
Also generally looks like some specs are getting pretty meh changes that are not needed.

[Dyne-]

22 hours ago, DougTheNoob said:

U mean like it is right now ,but for Juggs? They literaly can make mercs unable to move for a LONG time. I would agree with u if Juggs lose their imunity to knocks tho.

I don't think you actually read my post.

Modifying the duration of roots or just giving Mercs back hydraulic overrides as a baseline ability would have made the most sense here. Bioware won't do this because that would be admitting that ability pruning as it was implemented was a mistake. Ultimately the bastardization of advanced classes is what caused this situation. Further stripping of abilities is not the answer.

The dev team has had some pretty bad ideas, but implementing a mandatory 4 to 8 second delay in combat for only one of the participants takes the cake 😂

 

[vanluina]

On 11/22/2022 at 1:59 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Hey everyone, Shabir here back with another update. After looking over data collected from PTS and player feedback on Fury/Concentration, we will be making changes in regards to their DPS performance. We are implementing the following changes:

Fury/Concentration

 

• Gravity Fissure - Berserk/Zen no longer causes your next ability to auto crit. 

• Vehemence/Fervor - Critical Strike damage from all attacks increased back up to 10% from 5%. 

Dev Feedback: I wanted to add a bit of insight on this change as it does not come lightly. Since Fury/Concentration is a hybrid spec, we saw that Fury/Concentration was leaning too far as a burst spec and wanted to bring back into balance as a hybrid spec. This change also gives more flexibility to the player when they can activate Berserk/Zen. This also allows Carnage/Combat to further establish itself as the burst specialization and Annihilation/Watchman to establish itself as the sustain spec.

We appreciate the time taken for giving feedback. We are keeping an eye on this thread and will be making updates when changes occur. Take it easy.

You're not trying to "give more flexibility to the player" you're nerfing the class. A nerf is a nerf, no matter how you justify it. As a DPS-only, melee class, Marauder should be doing the best DPS in the game, and these nerfs are stripping away the only reason you play Mara, which is purely to do damage. You can do literally nothing else with this class, so if specs like Lethality, Hatred, etc. can outparse Mara's, what's the point of playing Mara? 

Marauder's should have the best DPS spec in the game, it doesn't have to be all 3 specs, but at least one needs to be the best. Hatred is already outperforming Fury, and this will push Fury into the 3rd or 4th DPS spot, which is ridiculous. You've already nerfed Annihilation, a spec you used to hold in high esteem, down to basically mid-tier DPS, now you're doing the same with Fury, so Marauder will have no spec in the top 3 DPS, why are you devs so obsessed with making Marauder's useless since 7.0 dropped?

You are basically crippling the only reason people play Mara, and once again, you're making a beloved spec basically useless by nerfing it below other classes that have no business doing better DPS. You did it to Lightning, now you're doing it to Fury. If Mara's are no longer than highest damaging class in the game, they need something else added, because there is nothing else Mara's bring to the table. 

Whatever "feedback" you're getting, it ain't coming from these forums. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by vanluina

[Prapcaster]

On 11/22/2022 at 1:15 PM, Nee-Elder said:

Most likely a combo of:

• Select  'influencers' & streamers
• PTS players who only talk in-game (but never post on forums)
• The cat crawling over his keyboard
• Kathleen Kennedy

p.s.  i never understood what's  so enjoyable, from a Dev perspective, about  number-crunching percentage tweaks and "balance" passes  all the time.  Seems to be an utterly futile endeavor, especially since it's practically impossible to ever account for all the 823749 unique types of RL gamers/skills/variables.   I suppose it's a bit like how  certain SPORTS  often get overwhelmed by "the analytics"  crowd.

They get feedback from people like swtorista who doesn't even get 20k dps

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 hour ago, vanluina said:

DPS-only, melee class, Marauder should be doing the best DPS in the game, and these nerfs are stripping away the only reason you play Mara, which is purely to do damage.

That is just so wrong. Or maybe in a different aspect of the game but in high end pve marauder was used because of unparallaled utility and great defensives, not because of the damage. And it will still be used because of it after the damage nerf. 





I still want to know though what goes in the dev's mind and what are their dps targets, if its like it has been for ages with melee dot at the top and ranged burst at the bottom and their balance skill is outright awful right now, or they changed it to something else and they need to communicate what is it now so at least some people can, maybe not fully agree, but at least see where they are coming from 

[Aethyriel]

3 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

That is just so wrong. Or maybe in a different aspect of the game but in high end pve marauder was used because of unparallaled utility and great defensives, not because of the damage. And it will still be used because of it after the damage nerf. 

Correct - but the unparalleled utility is still the issue. A DPS should not just do some 10k+ HPS without giving anything up. At least not while no other DPS provides a similar group utility (e.g. a dmg reduction for the group, maybe a group wide shield or something). But the goal should be to balance classes in a way that every class is useful. We are far far far removed from that goal. And the current Marauder changes do not address the issues in the slightest. The rotation was fun - the new rotation is not fun, it's build around random crit luck to gain stacks for a proper rotation. That is objectively speaking utter nonsense in terms of design.

Does it make any of the other classes perform better? People gonna play Deception sins and concealment sabos now? Are the other Marauder specs themselves now a more balanced choice? No. Because despite the devs insistence to highly value 'burst', it is almost never needed anywhere or in a capacity where the dot classes could not perform the task all the same just fine. At least, there is dramatically more drawback to lose DPS compared to burst damage - especially since the only really short DPS check I can think of might be pursuer droid in Dxun boss 2 and I don't see dot classes failing that check, even with 4 dot classes even if perhaps some would take something like shock finisher or burst tactical on viru to make up for a lack of burst.

But who the hell do the current changes actually help? You nerf Anni burst pointlessly, ruin the rotation, nerf the DPS and leave it with the stupid healing it has. You nerf Fury despite its idiotic Obliterate mechanic hampering it heavily and you have not fixed the inflexible and convoluted Carnage rotation because of the really dumb insistence of the devs to either make massacre cost more or less rage. Apparently, those are the only 2 options they could come up with.

The pool of viable classes certainly shrinks further with these changes and that's never a good thing. And the few actually viable classes just get nerfed and will then be played with a really dumb rotation just providing less for the group for no reason whatsoever.

[ZUHFB]

I think both of ya got a point, no class should do the damage anni does and its healing, but I don't think annis DPS should be nerfed. If anything remove the healing and make operative DPS heal that much, marauder is just not the class I imagine to be a supporter, operative fits that role way better imo and it already does in PvP

[Aethyriel]

12 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

If anything remove the healing and make operative DPS heal that much

But that creates the same problem all over again - that only one class or one spec provides something so important that you virtually can't do without (meaning, you make it SO much harder on yourself not utilizing certain classes / specs). Some classes just bring nothing but DPS to raids (deception, ling, concealment for example) or bring utility but another spec you can switch to on that class has the same utility just even more on top (like Anni > Fury/Carnage due to heals, Vengeance > Rage due to spread, Madness > Ling due to self-heal /w more DPS even). This makes hierarchies quite clear. And it's just so infuriatingly moronic that the devs do not approach balancing from that POV but are just hard stuck on their idea that groups will totally want to bring burst specs or ranged specs despite the DPS because of range or burst. But that's true for about 3 encounters or so and it's 1-2 spots really at most even there where this even begins to make sense. As long as devs believe that burst or range is a utility, some classes will never be good. As long as devs believe that reducing incoming dmg is not important, some classes (e.g. Assassins, Operatives) will simply suffer being 2nd choices behind classes doing the same thing just with less dmg taken and more utility provided. 

[Sikssix]

Seeing this thread become barren makes me wonder if there are any people on the PTS still.  I might jump back on and toy with some stuff there.  Doubt there needs to be any more testing for it however.

[Achnaattwo]

11 hours ago, Sikssix said:

makes me wonder if there are any people on the PTS still

I think others (like myself was thinking) there might have been a update Monday or Tuesday. I never really got to understanding how things worked on classes. I was more "this seems to work " button pusher.  All I could do in Balance change is  feel the results of the difference, if it took longer or was faster or felt the same.

I thought I might just do that, copied a couple classes I'm interested in, although they're not 80, but Used the booster once on PTS to see how they play.

It did feel like I was the only one there, was there for a couple hours, and never got picked up for any PvP (had all 3 selected).

since these are classes I never really played before, doubt I could give a good critique anyways, but I'll see what I can

[Aethyriel]

22 hours ago, Sikssix said:

Seeing this thread become barren makes me wonder if there are any people on the PTS still.  I might jump back on and toy with some stuff there.  Doubt there needs to be any more testing for it however.

There's nothing new / no changes have been made. The way the changes were challenged by the players were handled in one of the most inept ways I have ever seen in my 10+ years of suffering errors from devs who fail the players by being too proud to admit mistakes and then ruin their game as a consequence. what we know for certain is that the devs will stick to their plan as awful as it is and the purpose of the PTS is really not about the balancing but the new area and pvp and finding and fixing bugs (well, trying to fix bugs). Nim raid groups are quitting one after another because there's nothing to do and because only a so few specs are playable reasonably in nim, no new players join the ranks. So, why even waste time balancing classes for content nobody plays? Anyone who wants to enjoy raiding will just play the new WoW expansion or FF XIV instead of doing the new daily area for 3 weeks before you have maxed out the reputation and never visit again.

[Sikssix]

2 hours ago, Aethyriel said:

There's nothing new / no changes have been made. The way the changes were challenged by the players were handled in one of the most inept ways I have ever seen in my 10+ years of suffering errors from devs who fail the players by being too proud to admit mistakes and then ruin their game as a consequence. what we know for certain is that the devs will stick to their plan as awful as it is and the purpose of the PTS is really not about the balancing but the new area and pvp and finding and fixing bugs (well, trying to fix bugs). Nim raid groups are quitting one after another because there's nothing to do and because only a so few specs are playable reasonably in nim, no new players join the ranks. So, why even waste time balancing classes for content nobody plays? Anyone who wants to enjoy raiding will just play the new WoW expansion or FF XIV instead of doing the new daily area for 3 weeks before you have maxed out the reputation and never visit again.

That is disappointing.  Like my Vanguard.... Major Disappointment.  Anyways.  We shall see how they go about it within the coming months.

[jedimasterjac]

21 minutes ago, Sikssix said:

Like my Vanguard.... Major Disappointment. 

Isn't Plasma Vanguard/Pyro PT like the best spec for PvE right now?

[Sikssix]

1 hour ago, jedimasterjac said:

Isn't Plasma Vanguard/Pyro PT like the best spec for PvE right now?

It's pretty viable in some fights, but other classes (to which I fail to recall) are required since they can be squishy.  I have been able to keep up as Watchman with those specs just fine.  It heavily depends on who you're running with and what they are capable of.  

[xxSHOONYxx]

2 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

Isn't Plasma Vanguard/Pyro PT like the best spec for PvE right now?

I don't think there is a "best spec" for pve  for  any class. Each boss has a different best spec for it but with with the state of opeartions now its not as needed as it once was, you can pretty much play anything on any boss with some very few exceptions and your group will be fine.

Before you would see on class guides which spec was better for each boss
 

[Aethyriel]

17 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

you can pretty much play anything on any boss with some very few exceptions and your group will be fine

but you're obviously having a much easier time with a 3 PT 1 Marauder setup on brontes than running a group of Deception Sin, Concealment op, Ling Sorc and MM Sniper nvm the tank or heal setup.

[xxSHOONYxx]

3 hours ago, Aethyriel said:

but you're obviously having a much easier time with a 3 PT 1 Marauder setup on brontes than running a group of Deception Sin, Concealment op, Ling Sorc and MM Sniper nvm the tank or heal setup.

Person i quoted was asking about pt specs, idk why sin concealment lightning or marsmanship are named there.

And even then yeah, each boss has a different best class and specs for it and it's alright. Not only good in my eyes, but having every spec and class be equally good for every single boss fight is an utopia, can either be done with bad and boring boss designe because every boss would do the same, or every class does the same but with different animations.

 

[Aethyriel]

8 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

And even then yeah, each boss has a different best class and specs for it and it's alright.

and where exactly do the aforementioned classes excel (or rather their specs)? There are a few specs that are clearly better for about 90% of the content (some of where it doesn't matter at all e.g. nobody cares about DPS on Nefra or does not matter as much). But just because you can also kill bosses with suboptimal setups does not magically make specs that make up those setups 'viable' in the same sense as classes you would bring when given the option to do so.

8 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Not only good in my eyes, but having every spec and class be equally good for every single boss fight is an utopia

Absolutely, but the reality is that some classes are just a straight up handicap and there's no denying that hence the example with the crappy setup for one boss. You're not doing your group any favours playing a whole lot of specs on most bosses. They might be able and willing to compensate or be satisfied with 'good enough' and that's fine but you're still worse off every time.

On 12/1/2022 at 5:56 PM, xxSHOONYxx said:

I don't think there is a "best spec" for pve  for  any class.

is the answer to why those other classes were named. But why would you play Deception over Hatred, Arsenal over IO, Ling over Madness, Concealment over Lethality? the non-existent burst checks for the classes that don't actually have that much more burst over some 10 seconds or so (which would basically be pursuer droid which is the only real burst check I can think of that's this short)? You might consider it for armor break perhaps but then the argument would become why you don't bring a class that provides that and is better or why you don't play a setup that makes it rather redundant to have anyway and be better off in both cases.

Long story short / the point is: some classes and specs simply suck compared to others some 95% of the time. And when the encounters actually have tight dps checks or require good defences or support abilities, some classes suck even more. It's especially a problem when a well played bad spec still underperforms against a badly played good spec.