Should have gone Sandbox...

[SoloHand]

There is nothing stopping them from adding a few sandbox planets in future expansions just to throw a different factor into the mix.

 

I would love to see a planet or two like that for a change of pace instead of feeling like a mouse searching for cheese through the visually stunning maze they've created.

[Sykologist]

It was profitable, they, meaning SOE decisded on the change. Eve online was and still is successful.

 

SOE decided on the change because the game was bleeding subs.

 

From an SWG Developer himself:

"So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game.

 

Not just small changes, but rebuild it.

 

And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.

 

If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month"

 

So no, no it wasn't profitable. And yes EVE is a success, but not a 2.5 million player success.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Sykologist

[VanorDM]

Make money yes, but they don't need to be greedy.

 

No they are not greedy, they want to maximize their profits, which is the goal of every company out there.

 

As such they will make a MMO that they think will appeal to the largest group of people, to get the largest player base they can. This is how business works.

 

If sandbox style MMO's could draw in enough people to become truly profitable, then people would make them.

 

Interestingly enough a sandbox game like Skyrim is doing Very well, and making tons of money. Yet the same thing in a MMO simply doesn't work.

[Lokai]

why not go sandbox? because sandbox mmo's haven't made substantial profit in pay to play model in YEARS and certainly not on a scale that EA wanted this is why. Hate to break it to you but Sandbox mmo's are a thing of the past... and will remain as such because they LACK the things average player wants namely a driven purpose to doing everything. Sandboxes tend to be " here is world now go kill stuff with out reason to level up" and was ok back in day before tech allowed more indepth game play.

 

But this is 2011/2012 and design for games have evolved and despite what you may want/think themepark mmo's are what average mmo player want. They like the quest driven game play,they want to be told where to go and what to do, and further STORY is nigh impossible for sandbox mmo... and hardly makes sense. So basically telling bioware " hey that thing you do better then anyone else STOP DOING IT! and make swg 2.0!?!"

 

and to that i say no... sorry SWG go shut down but this game will never be swg 2.0...deal with it.

[JaxonLuxor]

The game is what it is. If you want sandbox then go play Fallen Earth or SWGEMU.

 

It had been stated for a LONG time that it was going to be a theme park MMO. It's not like it should be a surprise.

[Kurnea]

Sony did it wrong. They failed to polish their game and make it easy for the average customer. Then in a desperate attempt to clone WoW, they practically injected fail into their game at a lethal dose. And now SWG is shut down. All it took was a better company to do it right.

 

EVE Online did sandbox mmos right, and it's still very much a niche market. Niche doesn't mean bad, so long as the company can still operate successfully from a much smaller subscription pool.

[Ambrogino]

MMOs are never created to be just creative. They are made to make money. With the games out there, a developer can get enough statistics to see that the market population (people who pay money to play these games) all gravitate towards one specific style of game play. The theme park, class based, quest filled, minimal grind, easy to get started in MMO, such as WOW, Rift, etc.

 

Games with harder learning curves (i.e. SWG) tend to have rabid fans, yet fewer overall consumers. Games with harder skills (GA, PS, etc) tend to have fickle consumers (on again, off again subs) with small numbers. When you are looking at borrowing millions from a group of people, you have to have numbers that look as if they will make a return that is large. In layman's terms, the investors aren't gamers, they are money makers, and they will demand a model that will make money.

 

So, are you really shocked that we keep seeing the same thing over and over? We keep buying it.

 

With all that said, I'm a fan of the sand box, skill based, open world style of game. Yet, I'm also aware that I'm in the minority, and that logically, my favored style of game will not become popular until people start putting money into the "smaller" versions (which sadly are not as good quality).

 

Really? look at the endless rows of housing that was in SWG. No consumers... that's laughable. SOE destroyed that snadbox to bring it more in line with WoW, the big guy on the block... how'd that work out for them or all the clones... BTW, Eve online is doing just fine.

 

Ask Apple about being creative or do you still want that old flip phone.

[Grimmace]

MMOs are never created to be just creative. They are made to make money.

 

Nowadays that maybe true, but before WoW made it mainstream, money wasn't the main driving force in mmo development and creation.

[Sykologist]

I suggest you take a logic course at your nearest community college. Adolf Hitler was a white man, therefore all white men are mass murdering dictators. Bicycle helmet, put it on quickly.

 

Oh. so you want a more complete list.

 

Darkfall

Mortal Online

Dawntine

Dark & Light

Star Wars Galaxies

Fallen Earth

Earthrise

Xyson

 

Should I continue?

[Zironic]

Really? look at the endless rows of housing that was in SWG. No consumers... that's laughable. SOE destroyed that snadbox to bring it more in line with WoW, the big guy on the block... how'd that work out for them or all the clones... BTW, Eve online is doing just fine.

 

Ask Apple about being creative or do you still want that old flip phone.

 

EVE is a tiny tiny game maintained by a tiny tiny developer that's doing rather poorly financially.

[Grimmace]

EVE Online did sandbox mmos right, and it's still very much a niche market. Niche doesn't mean bad, so long as the company can still operate successfully from a much smaller subscription pool.

 

EVE also has a pretty sizable subscriber base, which has grown in overall size from year to year.

[Raximillian]

I like it as it is. It would be hard to create a story centric MMO in a sandbox game.

 

Could it use more sandbox elements? Sure! I think they would add to the game.

 

Would it be more successful if this was a sandbox instead of themepark? I do not think so. While I like sandboxes, I know they cater to a much smaller percentage of players. A pure sandbox game will never be as great hit as a themepark one. But I think a good themepark geme could benefit from sandbox elements.

 

Anyway, to answer the original question: No, it should not have gone sandbox.

[Kurnea]

Nowadays that maybe true, but before WoW made it mainstream, money wasn't the main driving force in mmo development and creation.

 

Was TOR not publicized as a mainstream game to begin with? If niche gaming is what some people want, shouldn't they stick to niche games?

[JaxonLuxor]

Nowadays that maybe true, but before WoW made it mainstream, money wasn't the main driving force in mmo development and creation.

 

Don't romanticize it . Everything is done for money.

[Traejun]

To OP and all like-minded people:

 

This is not SWG. It was never supposed to be ANYTHING like that. Stop imagining that it was or should have been.

[Kurnea]

EVE also has a pretty sizable subscriber base, which has grown in overall size from year to year.

 

By sizable, we're talking a few million?

[Raximillian]

By sizable, we're talking a few million?

 

EVE has about 350K. And that IS sizeable. It may not be WoW size, but 350K is a huge amount of people.

 

Edit: Corrected amount of accounts. Thanks for the correction.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Raximillian

[Darren_Kitlor]

It was easier for them to dress Mass Effect up in a Star Wars skin than it was create a proper MMO.

 

I wouldn't describe the amount of work in this project as easy--and would actually challenge you to say that the game would be much easier to create if they didn't need mission continuity.

[Zironic]

EVE has about 600K. And that IS sizeable. It may not be WoW size, but 600K is a huge amount of people.

 

No it doesn't. EVE has 350k Subs where on average each Sub represents 0.5 persons.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/02/eve-online-has-over-360000-players-63170-simultaneous-users-in-january/

[jeepoverland]

Its kind of the same reason places like Disneyland get MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of visitors each year and a beautiful miracle of nature like Yosemite or Yellow Stone gets hardly a fraction of that.

 

Most humans are simple minded sheep and will be led easier by baited carrot than imagination or creativity.

[Raximillian]

No it doesn't. EVE has 350k Subs where on average each Sub represents 0.5 persons.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/02/eve-online-has-over-360000-players-63170-simultaneous-users-in-january/

 

Thanks for the correction. 350K is still a LOT of people though. Compared to other games, maybe not. But in on itself, it is.

 

Edit: by the way, I'm not saying TOR should be sandbox, I think themepark is fine. Just saying that sandboxes are not complete failures either.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Raximillian

[Deadxero]

There are plenty of sandbox games out there. Every game doesn't need to fit that mold.

 

Seriously, why is everyone so surprised that a company so good at story driven RPGs delivered a story driven MMO? It's what they promised, it's what they delivered. I don't ever remember this game being pitched as GTA with light sabers.

[SnoggyMack]

So why not go sandbox?

 

Sandbox MMORPGs tend to fail. And the last Star Wars MMORPG was sandbox, so this one was definitely going in a different direction.

Edited December 30, 2011 by SnoggyMack

[Deadxero]

By sizable, we're talking a few million?

 

EVE, few hundred thousand. Believe right around 350k the last I heard. More than enough to keep it up and cover development of new content. Their dev's don't have near the overhead of a company like BW or Bliz.

[Rhinoplat]

I loathe and detest sandbox MMO's they are a Niche market and full of fail.

 

Trying to turn this game into a Sandbox is about as intellegent as SOE trying to turn their SWG sandbox into WoW with NGE and would cause the exact same revolt.

 

They aren't full of fail, they just aren't as economically appealing as the subs that WoW has.

 

Most players don't want to risk anything in their game life. Because most players don't like to take risks, game companies create games that are themepark based and have very little risk associated with their playing. This creates a market where players that don't like risk can enjoy a game.

 

I tell you though that there is a market for more risk vs reward, which is normally found in sandbox style games. The key is building the game up, and not expecting millions of subs out of the gate. CCP (creators of EvE) started out with under 50k subs and have build a game following of close to 500k subs. Those numbers are no where near what WoW brings in, but that is still 90million dollars a year in revenue from subs. CCP is a smaller company that Blizzard, so their actual profit is probably decent considering the size of the game company. 90 Million dollars a year is not chump change and if a game company would take the risk they would find profit in a sandbox game.

 

As of date we have UO, Shadowbane, Darkfall, Mortal Online and EvE that are or were sandbox. I have played all of those games; and yes DF and MO were subpar compared to the other 3. The difference is that DF and MO got caught up in wanting to make millions and have subs like WoW instead of building a player base like EvE did.

 

I do agree that sandbox is a niche market, but I love sandbox and they offer the player way more freedom than a themepark ride.