Do you ppl saying the nerf was good understand eco?

[HelmetHarry]

i dont really see your point. You mean ONE gathering skill making money while ALL OTHER gathering skills LOSE money was good for the economy because eventually we'd have nothing but slicers in the game?

 

/boggle

 

Your twisting it to make a bogus point. When used in conjunction with crafting, you weren't really losing money, and you helped other people make money as well. When you give up that third skill (usually mission) you created a market for goods. You depended on someone with that skill so you can buy from them. Which is what a lot of people including myself did. In turn you sold schematics from slicing (usually at rock bottom prices) and kept the symbiotic cycle going. There was supply and demand. Now the suppies are up and the demand is way down due to lack of cash. Remove a cog from the machine, and chances are the machine stops.

[OmegaAI]

Whether the high income from slicing was good or bad for the economy, is obviously up for debate. I'd like to add, however, that this economy is NOT run by the players, but by the NPCs.

 

The slicers got immediate return on investment, while crafters and gatherers actually had to put in valuable effort and time, and took more risk. This resulted in slicers being rich and non-slicers being poor. What some of you seem to forget is that credits are also spent on speeder training, skill ranks, all kinds of money sinks. The slicers were able to do this since they had a continuous flow of credits going into their accounts. Crafters have to invest to gain, but they can't invest enough, because they need to skill up etc. so they have no gain while leveling up.

 

So, I hope we can all agree slicers had an unfair advantage while progressing through the game. One can argue that slicing is less valuable at end-game and that's when crafters start making money. Very simple trick for that: quit slicing and go with 1 crafting + 2 gathering. You have tons of credits to invest in crafting which means you'll be able to level your crew skills in no time.

 

Slicing now gives you low profit, just the way it should be when the return on investment is so short, the risk is so low and it takes zero effort. Also, Kevin sent me

[TapVallian]

Level 20 or 50, it's still the same overall amount of money coming into the economy from one player's missions, so no different in overall inflation.

 

The difference is... wait for it... at level say 20 all you really had to spend your money on was blue/orange/purple armor and weapons, and if you wanted to craft, then crafting materials off the GTN. So with original slicing you could afford to pay a lot for those items and felt rich.

 

At level 40-50 when training a single skill cost 35-40k and repair bills are measured in thousands not hundreds, and speeder training costs 210k and 350k instead of 25k you would not feel rich with the old slicing and you would not be able to spend wildly on the GTN or stockpile money.

 

So getting a few hundred credits profit from a 30+ minute crew skill mission is a joke when killing one mob in a few seconds returns more credits.

 

The problem was being able to generate a 40-50 style income too early in the life of your character. Poor game design that should have been caught a long time ago... not a week after launch.

[Morrighane]

No, slicers put money into the economy by printing money. The other gathering skills destroy money. The rest is just money moving about.

 

Slicing as it was would create rampant inflation, where you'd eventually have to be a slicer, or a crafter selling to slicers, to be able to afford anything worthwhile that could be traded.

 

Personally I'd like slicing credit missions to be replaced by some other sort of mission, so that skills are on a level playing field, and then the economy balanced around that.

 

Better do away with credit games from farming mobs. That inflates the economy too.

[Twor]

Whether the high income from slicing was good or bad for the economy, is obviously up for debate. I'd like to add, however, that this economy is NOT run by the players, but by the NPCs.

 

The slicers got immediate return on investment, while crafters and gatherers actually had to put in valuable effort and time, and took more risk. This resulted in slicers being rich and non-slicers being poor. What some of you seem to forget is that credits are also spent on speeder training, skill ranks, all kinds of money sinks. The slicers were able to do this since they had a continuous flow of credits going into their accounts. Crafters have to invest to gain, but they can't invest enough, because they need to skill up etc. so they have no gain while leveling up.

 

So, I hope we can all agree slicers had an unfair advantage while progressing through the game. One can argue that slicing is less valuable at end-game and that's when crafters start making money. Very simple trick for that: quit slicing and go with 1 crafting + 2 gathering. You have tons of credits to invest in crafting which means you'll be able to level your crew skills in no time.

 

Slicing now gives you low profit, just the way it should be when the return on investment is so short, the risk is so low and it takes zero effort. Also, Kevin sent me

 

So why should everyone play the game as you see it fit than?

If you felt slicers had an unfair advantage, why didnt't you take slicing and drop it at 50 for a crewskill? Strange that logic goes both ways huh?

 

Also nothing has changed in regards to your crafter argument, what you're saying is basically "I'm a crafter, I'm poor so everyone has to be".

 

The slicers made the choice to sacrfice slfsufficient crafting and the prospect of lategame easy credits via crafting for eary credits. Now thats voided.

[Msbungle]

I will agree that some people may have abused slicing and that is what people are mainly complaining of. Instead of nerfing the end result of missions though, they should have put a cap on the number of missions you could run an hour or day. That would have addressed the issue people were complaining about - which were players abusing the mission system.

 

As for everyone making a slicer because of the profitability? No. If that were true there wouldn't have been a huge community movement which is what lead to the nerfing. My husband didn't move to slicing, but I had to loan him money for his speeder training. For those saying you shouldn't need slicing for this? That depends on your other crew skills. On my scavenger and bio toons, I have extra money, but I also have a third resource to gather from (robots or animals). I only have two gathering sources on my archeologist and found I needed to run more missions to get the mats I needed.

[Jalden]

OP do not understand economics.

[Proppa]

Yeah, the problem is that slicers made continuous money, allowing them to buy all unlocks the game has to offer. I am 45 sith sorc, just finished leveling Synthweaving, Archaeology and Underworld Trading to 400. I now have 120k credits, but still need to buy my speeder trading and 2 class skills. I was also given 150k credits from a friend who leveled slicing. I have hardly bought anything else for my companions and havent looked at the market at all. Whilst Slicers I know are going around, bragging how they have everything they want/need, with all of their companions fully equipt. It wasn't fair that Slicers were able to get everything, as it wasn't worth having any other skills if thats what you could get.

[RamzaBehoulve]

The nerf was terrible... you people who are saying "nerf slicing, I have 2 gathering skills and wasn't making as much as slicers with one" cut your own throat.

 

The money the slicers were putting into the economy BUYING STUFF FROM NON SLICERS is now gone. Did your servers AH just die, or the prices you were getting plummet?

 

Guess why. If they haven't yet, they will.

 

Z

 

You are the one who doesn't have any grasp on the economy. Slicing is STILL pure profit on TOP of anything else you are doing and so for just clicking one button.

 

Stop your whining.

[Cormanthor]

So why should everyone play the game as you see it fit than?

If you felt slicers had an unfair advantage, why didnt't you take slicing and drop it at 50 for a crewskill? Strange that logic goes both ways huh?

 

Also nothing has changed in regards to your crafter argument, what you're saying is basically "I'm a crafter, I'm poor so everyone has to be".

 

The slicers made the choice to sacrfice slfsufficient crafting and the prospect of lategame easy credits via crafting for eary credits. Now thats voided.

 

Slicers sacfriced nothing. They had all the speeder updrades, inventory/cargo, AND bought whatever they wanted on top of it. Like it or not but just because something is available in game does not mean you should get it for free or no effort. No MMO would survive if within the first month no one had anything to strive for.

 

You DO NOT NEED your level 40 speeder skill, it is a WANT. It be the same for everyone, put a little time in and earn it.

[Twor]

Slicers sacfriced nothing. They had all the speeder updrades, inventory/cargo, AND bought whatever they wanted on top of it. Like it or not but just because something is available in game does not mean you should get it for free or no effort. No MMO would survive if within the first month no one had anything to strive for.

 

You DO NOT NEED your level 40 speeder skill, it is a WANT. It be the same for everyone, put a little time in and earn it.

 

Slicers sacrificed their 3rd skill. Thus they can never ever be self sufficient crafters.

They depended on the GTN for their rare mats, affording them with the money the made with slicing. Thats basic economies btw.

Someone has the money, someone has the goods. Now noone has the money.

But great use of caps.

[Cormanthor]

Slicers sacrificed their 3rd skill. Thus they can never ever be self sufficient crafters.

They depended on the GTN for their rare mats, affording them with the money the made with slicing. Thats basic economies btw.

Someone has the money, someone has the goods. Now noone has the money.

But great use of caps.

 

So funny! Really...good job there.

 

Name one other MMO which has a profession like slicing. Go ahead, I will wait. There is plenty of money out in the game and the economy is slowly finding its feet.

[DervimNorth]

You DO NOT NEED your level 40 speeder skill, it is a WANT. It be the same for everyone, put a little time in and earn it.

 

I do need to fix my gear, buy better gear, buy skills and upgrades, I do need to respec from time to time. I, also, need to be able to keep up with other people whenever I group up, so yeah-I DO need a better speeder.

 

To do all that and to be on par with hardcore grinders I need MONEY, however I am, more or less, casual player and I hate wasting my time on grind, just because I need cash to be able to perform on par with others.

 

Slicing was there for me, but then it got nerfed into the ground. So now I'm forced into the pointless grind, if I'm interested in the endgame.

[Anticasper]

What sickens me about this whole slicing business is mainly that people obviously can not stand everybody to be rich even in a fantasy where it would not have to matter whatsoever.

It is no fun to feel poor in a virtual fantasy world where I am paying for.

Why should I continue to pay for something that according to some people needs to resemble real life in such a way that it feels like a drag ?

Feeling rich by easy money button is entertaining is happy customers is good business for Bioware is good for the game.

Also keeps away gold farmers as people can farm their own gold and have fun at the same time.

It really is not a difficult concept to understand, people need to get over themselves just because you like to suffer does not mean others have to.

[jdela]

The GTN was dead way before they nerfed slicing. It has nothing to do with slicing and everything to do with how gear is obtained from Commendations, Heroics, and FlashPoints. Greens are vendor trash, most blues are vendor trash, and even purples and oranges can be vendor trash.

 

Slicing is and always was a crafting skill. Every single other crafting skill is a money sink, plain and simple. Bioware probably intended slicing to be the same. I have treasure hunting for example. I can send my companions on missions for lockboxes as well. You know what normally happened? I got 300+ less credits back, a green item that was 400-500 credits less than the mission, failed missions that gave me nothing, and the rare decent item or decent credits where I came out even or ahead 100 or so credits. That is when you realize treasure hunting is for crystals and companion gifts, hence a crafting profession. Slicing is now exactly the same, except you get different missions for different items.

 

So the whole fallacy of because I am rich I will trickle down the wealth on everyone else through the GTN does not fool anyone. You never had anything to buy on the GTN and it would trickle down to your alts so they never have to bother to do anything other than level (not that I care). So stop trying to say slicing will stop gold farmers and just be honest. You wanted to make great money with no effort. You don't want to craft, so you gather to make profit. I have no idea what you can spend money on in this game, but for some reason you felt the need to hoard credits. Have your speeder 2 money set aside before you could even get speeder 1, etc.

 

So with the "nerf" you now have no reason for any of the crew skills and I guess feel entitled that one crew skill should be set aside for making money. In other MMOs the gathering skills became money makers because the crafted goods were valuable, not because it was intended that way. SWTOR does not have that dynamic yet. Plus crew skills have essentially no cost. In every other MMO I played your character had to spend time gathering. Here you simply had a formula, pay x to receive x + y%. I'm sure you could easily calculate gain rate per hour fairly accurately, which I doubt was the intention.

 

TLDR; It is a crafting skill and all crafting skills are money sinks currently.

[Twor]

So funny! Really...good job there.

 

Name one other MMO which has a profession like slicing. Go ahead, I will wait. There is plenty of money out in the game and the economy is slowly finding its feet.

 

Name one other MMO where you can send your crew gathering. No arguments forthcoming, as usual. Maybe you have read the announcements from swtor. You know, completely new crafting system and the like. But probably not.

 

Just leave it.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Twor

[Pandabutt]

Slicing in its previous state was good for the economy. I won't argue that a NERF wasn't needed, but the 71% NERF we got was overdoing it.

 

The increased credit flow from Slicing early on offered an opportunity that no other game has provided. A chance to start the market high and work down to stable reasonable prices. An actual chance to make crafting profitable. But instead of seeing this opportunity, everyone continued to price things low for the "sell fast" mentality that comes with new games. Everyone complained about Slicing putting to much money in the economy. And, people abused the skill.

 

What we have now though is, a broken skill, and a handful of profitless crafts. Someone said it before in this thread, "not all inflation is bad" that is a true statement. Look at real world economics, when costs of living exceed the general public's average income, more money is introduced into the economy in one form or another, be it stipends, bale-outs, or general aid funds. This money doesn't go to everyone, but rather to a limited number, the money is meant to stimulate the economy and push for an increase in wages or a decrease in cost of living.

 

It works the same way here. Toss a large flow of cash into the game off the bat and if used properly the economy will get off to a good start and be self sufficient. But if failed, and it did, prices wont budge and cost of living will continue to exceed income. It failed, not because the system was flawed, but rather because of all of us, we didn't take full advantage of what was offered to us. Instead people abused the system, people complained, and we all priced our materials and craftables to low to profit.

 

Early economy prices are meant to be high. Yes, only a few will be able to afford early high prices, but those few will stimulate the market by fueling the crafters with profits. Prices will steadily decrease to reasonable, yet still profitable, prices that everyone can afford.

 

Everyone blames Slicing for the crafting skills and other gathering skills being unprofitable, when in reality Slicing made them all profitable, everyone was just to blind to see it. Now, instead of changing things and having a working functional economy with profitable crafts for once, we have broken skills and profitless crafts.

[ZNICK]

Slicing in its previous state was good for the economy. I won't argue that a NERF wasn't needed, but the 71% NERF we got was overdoing it.

 

The increased credit flow from Slicing early on offered an opportunity that no other game has provided. A chance to start the market high and work down to stable reasonable prices. An actual chance to make crafting profitable. But instead of seeing this opportunity, everyone continued to price things low for the "sell fast" mentality that comes with new games. Everyone complained about Slicing putting to much money in the economy. And, people abused the skill.

 

What we have now though is, a broken skill, and a handful of profitless crafts. Someone said it before in this thread, "not all inflation is bad" that is a true statement. Look at real world economics, when costs of living exceed the general public's average income, more money is introduced into the economy in one form or another, be it stipends, bale-outs, or general aid funds. This money doesn't go to everyone, but rather to a limited number, the money is meant to stimulate the economy and push for an increase in wages or a decrease in cost of living.

 

It works the same way here. Toss a large flow of cash into the game off the bat and if used properly the economy will get off to a good start and be self sufficient. But if failed, and it did, prices wont budge and cost of living will continue to exceed income. It failed, not because the system was flawed, but rather because of all of us, we didn't take full advantage of what was offered to us. Instead people abused the system, people complained, and we all priced our materials and craftables to low to profit.

 

Early economy prices are meant to be high. Yes, only a few will be able to afford early high prices, but those few will stimulate the market by fueling the crafters with profits. Prices will steadily decrease to reasonable, yet still profitable, prices that everyone can afford.

 

Everyone blames Slicing for the crafting skills and other gathering skills being unprofitable, when in reality Slicing made them all profitable, everyone was just to blind to see it. Now, instead of changing things and having a working functional economy with profitable crafts for once, we have broken skills and profitless crafts.

 

DING DING DING.... We have a winner!

 

Z

[LilTikiBoy]

DING DING DING.... We have a winner!

 

Z

 

how do you figure? the GTN is broken because everything you buy on it can be obtained without it and crafts arent broken because slicing isnt spewing credits out peoples ******es anymore, crafts are broken because you dont need crafters to get upgrades. all you gotta do is go to whatever planet is your lvl and grind a few quests for tokens.

 

Modification and equipment vendors killed crafting which killed the GTN, the nerf to slicing just made it so people dont have a rediculous amount of credits sitting there collecting dust with nothin worth buying because they already got their upgrades somewhere else.

[Pandabutt]

how do you figure? the GTN is broken because everything you buy on it can be obtained without it and crafts arent broken because slicing isnt spewing credits out peoples ******es anymore, crafts are broken because you dont need crafters to get upgrades. all you gotta do is go to whatever planet is your lvl and grind a few quests for tokens.

 

Modification and equipment vendors killed crafting which killed the GTN, the nerf to slicing just made it so people dont have a rediculous amount of credits sitting there collecting dust with nothin worth buying because they already got their upgrades somewhere else.

 

Crafting can produce better mods for your level than can be bought from vendors, additionally, crit crafted gear contains Augment slots further increasing your stats.

 

Crafting is profitless because people act on impulse rather than thinking things through. You Reverse Engineer to purples on Mods and sell them at every level for more than the cost of materials. It's worth it to make items that are far below your level to sell as well. You can always obtain materials easily, and if you keep your prices above the cost of the missions needed for the materials then you will profit. If it costs you 6k running missions for the materials then you charge between 8-10k for the mods, if your an armor or weapon crafter then you charge an extra premium for crit crafted gear, 1/4-1/2 extra over non-crit craft.

 

Biochem, sell Blue and Purple Medpacs, people will buy them.

 

You need to stop acting on impulse and actually look at the situation. We've dug ourselves into a hole not even 2 weeks after the game released.

[Zennshi]

What sickens me about this whole slicing business is mainly that people obviously can not stand everybody to be rich even in a fantasy where it would not have to matter whatsoever.

It is no fun to feel poor in a virtual fantasy world where I am paying for.

Why should I continue to pay for something that according to some people needs to resemble real life in such a way that it feels like a drag ?

Feeling rich by easy money button is entertaining is happy customers is good business for Bioware is good for the game.

Also keeps away gold farmers as people can farm their own gold and have fun at the same time.

It really is not a difficult concept to understand, people need to get over themselves just because you like to suffer does not mean others have to.

 

+1

 

It is sort of a sick game at this point, how I play the game doesn't effect you. If I had slicing, I wouldn't buy anything from you unless I really needed it. If I didn't I still wouldn't buy anything from you, unless I really needed it.

 

I don't understand why all the hate.

[Morticoccus]

No, slicers put money into the economy by printing money. The other gathering skills destroy money. The rest is just money moving about.

 

Slicing as it was would create rampant inflation, where you'd eventually have to be a slicer, or a crafter selling to slicers, to be able to afford anything worthwhile that could be traded.

 

Personally I'd like slicing credit missions to be replaced by some other sort of mission, so that skills are on a level playing field, and then the economy balanced around that.

 

You *would* be a slicer or, as you so eloquently put it "a crafter selling to slicers".

 

There is nothing else you could be, because there are only slicing and all the other crafting and gathering professions. It is a binary system, ergo you would either be a slicer buying from crafters or gatherers, or a gatherer or crafter selling to slicers.

And as you also say, the other skills destroy money, so it's a river of credits flowing from creation to destruction.

 

Wherein lies the problem?

[JamieKirby]

Crafting can produce better mods for your level than can be bought from vendors, additionally, crit crafted gear contains Augment slots further increasing your stats.

 

Crafting is profitless because people act on impulse rather than thinking things through. You Reverse Engineer to purples on Mods and sell them at every level for more than the cost of materials. It's worth it to make items that are far below your level to sell as well. You can always obtain materials easily, and if you keep your prices above the cost of the missions needed for the materials then you will profit. If it costs you 6k running missions for the materials then you charge between 8-10k for the mods, if your an armor or weapon crafter then you charge an extra premium for crit crafted gear, 1/4-1/2 extra over non-crit craft.

 

Biochem, sell Blue and Purple Medpacs, people will buy them.

 

You need to stop acting on impulse and actually look at the situation. We've dug ourselves into a hole not even 2 weeks after the game released.

 

oh i like you, you actually have some brains and think about all things, instead of just yourself.

 

Thats how wow is done with its economy, you can make so much gold as a miner and skinner, but gathering skills in this game is no where near profitable enough to be worth doing.

 

I have placed doezens of scavenging materials, archeology materials and it never sells unless i put it at such a low price that it just feels pointless to do.

 

On WoW, i can spend maybe 1-2hrs mining and skinning and i can make 5k gold within 48hrs, how do i do that?

 

Do i overcharge? no.

 

I put it right smack dab in the centre of the lot, i have seen many items being sold for way under the value of the item and instead of buying it and putting at the right value, i make sure they know the true value of the item and its either a new player, not having a clue and i help them out and they are appreciative for the help or its a player that just doesn't care, in those instances, i just buy them and put it at the right price, in that situations its a win-win.

 

But on this game, its never a win-win situation, crafters want materials for next to nothing and expect everyone to pay their overpriced prices.

 

I mean i can understand low level epic modules are VERY good and can be worth some of the prices i have seen, since the epic modules are still better then blues 5-7 levels later and so it would be worth paying more credits for those, but i have been having trouble finding moduels to upgrade my gear.

 

When i find a crafter thats those modules i need, all they say is: 'its not profitable enough' which means, they are thinking of themselves and nothing else.

[Zennshi]

oh i like you, you actually have some brains and think about all things, instead of just yourself.

 

Thats how wow is done with its economy, you can make so much gold as a miner and skinner, but gathering skills in this game is no where near profitable enough to be worth doing.

 

I have placed doezens of scavenging materials, archeology materials and it never sells unless i put it at such a low price that it just feels pointless to do.

 

On WoW, i can spend maybe 1-2hrs mining and skinning and i can make 5k gold within 48hrs, how do i do that?

 

Do i overcharge? no.

 

I put it right smack dab in the centre of the lot, i have seen many items being sold for way under the value of the item and instead of buying it and putting at the right value, i make sure they know the true value of the item and its either a new player, not having a clue and i help them out and they are appreciative for the help or its a player that just doesn't care, in those instances, i just buy them and put it at the right price, in that situations its a win-win.

 

But on this game, its never a win-win situation, crafters want materials for next to nothing and expect everyone to pay their overpriced prices.

 

I mean i can understand low level epic modules are VERY good and can be worth some of the prices i have seen, since the epic modules are still better then blues 5-7 levels later and so it would be worth paying more credits for those, but i have been having trouble finding moduels to upgrade my gear.

 

When i find a crafter thats those modules i need, all they say is: 'its not profitable enough' which means, they are thinking of themselves and nothing else.

 

That is because........no one has the disposable income, DERP.

[JamieKirby]

That is because........no one has the disposable income, DERP.

 

Erm, this game is freaking new.

 

The games' economy didn't have a chance to come alive before you guys killed it. lol