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The anti-alt focus of 7.0 is not doing the game any favors


Pricia

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I really don't understand why they are making it so hard for people to be able to actually ENJOY playing their alts.

 

- currency caps in CQ past the 4th character

- all the insane CQ nerfs, from doubling the goal to making a lot of the goals dailies instead of infinitely repeatable

- heck, even encouraging people to have two combat styles on one character instead of playing two..

 

I really don't get it though. I've been playing every single of my alts every week because I actually enjoy it. With the few story updates we've been getting, alts are the ONLY REASON why I've stuck to the game for so long. Not the gear - the story. I enjoy seeing as many aspects of the story as I can. I enjoy playing different specs on different characters while doing CQ. Getting gear is fun too but it's not what's been keeping me playing.

 

But now, 7.0 is going to be a job. It took me over 20 hours to get CQ done on my character this week, and that was with 12-18k from getting renown levels and optimizing everything I could - while 7.0 will force me into specific, longer content if I want to actually upgrade my gear in the prospect. I'm guessing it will take me much longer from now on.

 

It's not fun. I don't understand really, with CQ rewards being, frankly, a total joke, why make it so hard to reach on several characters? Why do you even care if I reach max IR for one character a bit faster, if IR is going to be capped for several months anyway and I'll still have to get legendaries and weapons on all my characters? And I don't even group, so why does it matter to anyone if I'm fully geared for ONE character two weeks earlier than others?

 

The sad thing is that it's the smaller guilds that are going to suffer from this the most. The big guilds won't care and will just kick inactive characters, while the most casual ones really needed those 50k CQ points weekly. And I'm not looking forward to having to look for a new guild every time I log on a character that has been neglected because there's just no more time to play all my toons anymore.

Edited by Pricia
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Well said. Never ceases to amaze me when a game with a huge amount of alt play built into it (character slots, different class stories, etc.) treats having more than a couple alts like the redheaded stepchild of playstyle. It doesn't even make sense from a cynical business standpoint. Discouraging people from playing their alts means they have less reason to log in when they are bored with doing the same old same old lack of regular content and want variety, less reason to buy cosmetics for varying characters and looks, etc.
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I've seen other games go the "we don't like alts route" and I also do not understand it. It is what it is though. If you are here for the story, then play for the story. You don't need 100K CQ a week to go through the story.

You fear of smaller guilds I don' think will be a big deal. It's the bigger guilds that will kick inactive alts, not the smaller ones I'm in a smaller guild and if I have a character that is making CQ, they don't care about my alts because they are not close to capping out at 1K.

The, only being able to do one FP per day, for the weekly is really a kick in the sins though can't lie, that one hurts.

 

My understanding is that all gear should be shareable so if you think that you only need 3 sets of gear for all alts. One tank, one heal, one dps then even getting gear won't be so bad.

 

Play the alt you want, use the gear shared between all, stored in a legacy bank and I think it will be fine,

 

Patch is tomorrow, relax and enjoy the story.

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I really don't understand why they are making it so hard for people to be able to actually ENJOY playing their alts.

 

- currency caps in CQ past the 4th character

- all the insane CQ nerfs, from doubling the goal to making a lot of the goals dailies instead of infinitely repeatable

- heck, even encouraging people to have two combat styles on one character instead of playing two..

 

I really don't get it though. I've been playing every single of my alts every week because I actually enjoy it. With the few story updates we've been getting, alts are the ONLY REASON why I've stuck to the game for so long. Not the gear - the story. I enjoy seeing as many aspects of the story as I can. I enjoy playing different specs on different characters while doing CQ. Getting gear is fun too but it's not what's been keeping me playing.

 

But now, 7.0 is going to be a job. It took me over 20 hours to get CQ done on my character this week, and that was with 12-18k from getting renown levels and optimizing everything I could - while 7.0 will force me into specific, longer content if I want to actually upgrade my gear in the prospect. I'm guessing it will take me much longer from now on.

 

It's not fun. I don't understand really, with CQ rewards being, frankly, a total joke, why make it so hard to reach on several characters? Why do you even care if I reach max IR for one character a bit faster, if IR is going to be capped for several months anyway and I'll still have to get legendaries and weapons on all my characters? And I don't even group, so why does it matter to anyone if I'm fully geared for ONE character two weeks earlier than others?

 

The sad thing is that it's the smaller guilds that are going to suffer from this the most. The big guilds won't care and will just kick inactive characters, while the most casual ones really needed those 50k CQ points weekly. And I'm not looking forward to having to look for a new guild every time I log on a character that has been neglected because there's just no more time to play all my toons anymore.

 

 

Games are designed to appeal to the masses.

While I and others I've met and associated with lately have over 11 alts each, is this representative of a majority of the players? I'd say no.

 

Does running to many alts lead to in-game inflation? I'd have to say yes.

 

Could I run up 11 toons in a short period of time to over 50k cq each? probably in less than 4 hours total time.

 

Have I seen players abuse alts to make themselves very rich? yep!

 

With those items in mind, I can understand why they are putting the brakes on a bit.

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And I'm not looking forward to having to look for a new guild every time I log on a character that has been neglected because there's just no more time to play all my toons anymore.

Good news, my guild doesn't kick people out unless they've been inactive 50 days, and if you log in so much as one toon in less than 50 days, all the alts can stay, so you'd have some breathing room.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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Well, with all my alts it's going to take me hours to do the story, to be fair.

 

It's after that that I honestly don't know...

 

Sure, there are alts but when you finish both questlines for the first time all you can do on alts is inspecting smoke and mirrors that give you the illusion of choice.

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Games are designed to appeal to the masses.

While I and others I've met and associated with lately have over 11 alts each, is this representative of a majority of the players? I'd say no.

 

Does running to many alts lead to in-game inflation? I'd have to say yes.

 

Could I run up 11 toons in a short period of time to over 50k cq each? probably in less than 4 hours total time.

 

Have I seen players abuse alts to make themselves very rich? yep!

 

With those items in mind, I can understand why they are putting the brakes on a bit.

That only addresses the credits aspect of it though, not the other nerfs. If that was the concern, they could just make it so there is some kind of diminishing returns on the credits when you repeat them outside of a daily&weekly reset.

 

Also, your argument doesn't really hold in general because if "games are designed to appeal to the masses" is the justification, why would they make conquest less rewarding and harder *for everybody* because (according to your estimations) those who have a ton of alts aren't the majority. They didn't *just* make it harder and less rewarding for people with lots of alts, they made it harder and less rewarding for all players. In other words, making the game worse for everybody because supposedly some are abusing it is hardly appealing to the masses... it's more like chasing away the masses because they're too ineffectual at design to reign in exploitative or unfairly advantageous use of mechanics in ways that are limited to said exploitative or advantageous uses of them. Screwing with general use of mechanics to reign in the actions of a minority of players; the saying "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" comes to mind.

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Could I run up 11 toons in a short period of time to over 50k cq each? probably in less than 4 hours total time.

 

Have I seen players abuse alts to make themselves very rich? yep!

 

...through GTN. GTN doesn't generate credits, GTN removes credits from the game because every sale is taxed.

To combat inflation BW should be encouraging people to sell more on GTN.

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Games are designed to appeal to the masses.

While I and others I've met and associated with lately have over 11 alts each, is this representative of a majority of the players? I'd say no.

 

Does running to many alts lead to in-game inflation? I'd have to say yes.

 

Could I run up 11 toons in a short period of time to over 50k cq each? probably in less than 4 hours total time.

 

Have I seen players abuse alts to make themselves very rich? yep!

 

With those items in mind, I can understand why they are putting the brakes on a bit.

 

If the goal was to reduce inflation/credits, they didn't have to double the total and nerf goals. Removing credits from rewards was enough.

 

I really don't get it.

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That only addresses the credits aspect of it though, not the other nerfs. If that was the concern, they could just make it so there is some kind of diminishing returns on the credits when you repeat them outside of a daily&weekly reset.

 

.....(edited out because this is the only part my response points to)....

 

It's funny you mention that, since they've already done it to space PVE to solve a problem or two that came up several years ago.

 

They definitely could have done something similar to other repetitive sections of the game.

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They stated, a few times if I'm not mistaken, that one of the goals with 7.0 was to find ways to reduce the in game credits generated by different parts of the game.

Rather than doing one of the obvious things, reducing the credit reward for various types of quests / objectives, they are simply trying to make them less attractive for people to do over and over again.

For example, you can still do flashpoints over and over again, but they won't count for conquest the same way so the people doing them for conquest points won't do them as frequently.

While not my personal preference for conquest points, I understand that some people prefer small group content and some of the flashpoints go by pretty quickly. If the 4 people per conquest are from the same guild they can certainly get 4 toons up to the goal (in 6.0) much faster than I can get four of mine up even when I'm running two computers with 1 account on each machine.

Those 4 people can then switch alts and do the same thing over and over again, all day long (in 6.0) until they run out of alts, for a nice chunk of conquest.

Now, bringing that example back to credits, those 4 people are making WAY more credits getting two alts (each) up to conquest than I am using different conquest objectives each week. Interestingly enough, most of the super fast methods I use are going away with 7.0 so my vanity guilds (yes, plural) getting to 500k is going to take more time trying to play the same way I've been playing since the start of 6.0.

 

The problem for the player base as a whole, regarding credits and the credit generation (not transfer between players - EG sales / trades) you're making things rarer, more time consuming to acquire, and slowing down the ability for newer players to afford these rare items (flagship encryptions as an example).

 

I'm going to go back to my space PVE reference.

 

You USED to get a pretty decent credit payout for running them.

Then they got abused, intensely abused...for credits and for ground gear currency (black hold commendations)

So they were nerfed. They took the commendations away, and nerfed the credit payout into the ground.

 

Guess what.

 

No one really does them anymore unless it's to grind out another reputation tree.

 

For a video game, when you get a whole lot of people who can't quickly/easily/legitimately earn in-game credits to buy the shiny items they want, they're going to leave.

 

A lot of players (more than I'll ever understand) want to play space barbie with this game.

They want to unlock the guild ship, not as bragging rights, but just to do it. These changes to conquest make that one goal not only JUST more expensive (if someone wanted to buy what they need to unlock the rooms) but also, if they want to "earn" it themselves, it will take them twice as long.

 

Neither is a good option.

 

I've binged The Newsroom all afternoon (great show) and now I'm done rambling for the night.

 

See you all after the servers open up, then crash, then come up again.

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The major changes to conquest were not about Inflation. Since Conquest is going to be one of the gearing paths now, they wanted to keep it from being faster than the other paths.

 

This is unfortunate, IMO. For the last year, they finally had conquest somewhat enjoyable and many solo and casual players really embraced it. Now they have nerfed the rewards significantly across the board, doubled the individual goal and nerfed the points on popular CQ objectives. On top of that, many objectives are being removed, while even more are being shifted from infinite to daily.

 

Again, this mostly has to do with balancing the various paths to gearing. While I understand their reasons for that, I believe it is counter-productive to one of the key purposes of Conquest. Conquest is supposed to promote guild competition while also providing rewards for repetitive content. For example, the conquest points rewarded for GSF and Star Fortress brought life back to two otherwise dead or dying activities. Now people won't do either activity as much and that's especially bad for group content that requires queue times (like GSF). I wasn't overly concerned about the personal goal being raised from 50K to 100K, but now, not only do we need twice as many points, but we'll only be getting half as much when you combine the nerfed points with the removed objectives (like gain a renown level).

 

In conclusion, I don't plan to unsub at this time. This is the only game I play when I have free time. But I will probably keep to myself, not worry about gearing, and queue much less for group activities. From a guild perspective, I feel the changes to CQ make it dull and uninteresting and my focus will shift to an apathetic state. In other words, I won't be going out of my way to reach any conquest goals. Hopefully if other players react like I do, and less people participate in group activities causing queue times to increase, Bioware will rethink some of these decisions and make CQ more rewarding once again.

 

It's frustrating when they completely redo aspects (such as gearing and CQ) of the game that many people found favorable. There will be some positive things from 7.0 as well, but we shouldn't have to lose all the positive things from 6.0.

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That only addresses the credits aspect of it though, not the other nerfs. If that was the concern, they could just make it so there is some kind of diminishing returns on the credits when you repeat them outside of a daily&weekly reset.

 

Also, your argument doesn't really hold in general because if "games are designed to appeal to the masses" is the justification, why would they make conquest less rewarding and harder *for everybody* because (according to your estimations) those who have a ton of alts aren't the majority. They didn't *just* make it harder and less rewarding for people with lots of alts, they made it harder and less rewarding for all players. In other words, making the game worse for everybody because supposedly some are abusing it is hardly appealing to the masses... it's more like chasing away the masses because they're too ineffectual at design to reign in exploitative or unfairly advantageous use of mechanics in ways that are limited to said exploitative or advantageous uses of them. Screwing with general use of mechanics to reign in the actions of a minority of players; the saying "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" comes to mind.

 

Everything I said makes perfect sense.

I suspect that is what scares you.

 

You can still play all of your alts!

 

You just no longer make uber amounts of rewards for doing so!

 

Nothing is stopping you from playing your alts if you really enjoy playing them!

 

Increasing the amount of CQ is necessary as it was VERY EASY to make 50k per toon.

 

 

The people I've associated myself with over the past few months all have 10-30 alts that they use to farm incredible amounts of credits, some I suspect of being credit farmers as they have unlocked ZERO datacrons.

 

Just get real and admit that this is all about the rewards! Nothing is stopping anyone from playing alts!

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You can still play all of your alts!

Yes, you can. But I didn't torch my alts on Star Forge from 50-something down to 22 because I couldn't play them, but because I couldn't stand the idea that I couldn't play them fully.

 

All 75, all 306 gear, many of them with 700 in crafting, quested outfits like the Rishi pirate set, expensive dyes... 30-something characters... gone. Why?

 

Forget conquest. Forget making money. Forget raising legacy levels or completing achievements. I couldn't bear to look at them in the character selection screen knowing I'd have to choose between investing my time in them versus the ones that I use to support my guild, knowing I'd never, ever, play long enough to gear all those toons, and don't you dare get me started on trading gear across alts, it's not something this player chooses to ever do.

 

Play my way went out the window.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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Everything I said makes perfect sense.

I suspect that is what scares you.

 

You can still play all of your alts!

 

You just no longer make uber amounts of rewards for doing so!

 

Nothing is stopping you from playing your alts if you really enjoy playing them!

 

Increasing the amount of CQ is necessary as it was VERY EASY to make 50k per toon.

 

 

The people I've associated myself with over the past few months all have 10-30 alts that they use to farm incredible amounts of credits, some I suspect of being credit farmers as they have unlocked ZERO datacrons.

 

Just get real and admit that this is all about the rewards! Nothing is stopping anyone from playing alts!

 

There's no reason to play if there's no reward after you're done with the story so OBVIOUSLY it has to do with the rewards. But I never really cared that much about CQ rewards (apart from the tech fragments), it was just a goal to reach every week for something to do...

 

But be real - they've already nerfed CQ rewards to heck. All we get is maybe 500 tech fragments and maybe 50k credits - and that's if your guild reaches its goal too. You get no credits from CQ goals. There was no reason to nerf it more than that. Actually, you know what? Forcing us to get twice the CQ points will end up with us making MORE credits than if they had left it at 50k, because we'll have to grind more (and, as such, make more credits) to get that extra 50k.

 

So your argument is irrelevant - why does it even matter that it's so easy to make 50k per toon (which... really isn't when you have a bunch of them) if the rewards for doing it are crap? It's just something to do for people like me who like playing different characters.

 

And no, I won't be able to play all my characters if I have to spend 2 hours doing CQ for one of them (I'll be shocked if we get CQ done for this week just doing the story at this point) - so it's absolutely in my right to complain about a HUGE change that is clearly directed at my playstyle.

 

And I also have to admit that people saying that others are "abusing alts" is getting annoying. There's no abuse. We're just playing the game. We've spent money and a lot of time leveling those alts, why is the amount of time we've spent in the game not as important as yours, just because you don't play the same way? Nothing has ever stopped you from leveling alts to get all that apparently crazy amount of credits that altoholics have (nevermind I suppose all the money we spend playing Space Barbie on every single one of them).

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Everything I said makes perfect sense.

I suspect that is what scares you.

 

You can still play all of your alts!

 

You just no longer make uber amounts of rewards for doing so!

 

Nothing is stopping you from playing your alts if you really enjoy playing them!

 

Increasing the amount of CQ is necessary as it was VERY EASY to make 50k per toon.

 

 

The people I've associated myself with over the past few months all have 10-30 alts that they use to farm incredible amounts of credits, some I suspect of being credit farmers as they have unlocked ZERO datacrons.

 

Just get real and admit that this is all about the rewards! Nothing is stopping anyone from playing alts!

I said they could do "some kind of diminishing returns on the credits when you repeat them outside of a daily&weekly reset." instead of nerfing them for everyone in response to your point about it supposedly being to appeal to the masses and your response is that I want the rewards and a not-so-subtle attempt to put me in the same category as people you suspect of being credit farmers. You obviously didn't read a word I said, no point in supplying you with more words for you to not read.

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I really don't understand why they are making it so hard for people to be able to actually ENJOY playing their alts.

 

- currency caps in CQ past the 4th character

- all the insane CQ nerfs, from doubling the goal to making a lot of the goals dailies instead of infinitely repeatable

- heck, even encouraging people to have two combat styles on one character instead of playing two..

 

I really don't get it though. I've been playing every single of my alts every week because I actually enjoy it. With the few story updates we've been getting, alts are the ONLY REASON why I've stuck to the game for so long. Not the gear - the story. I enjoy seeing as many aspects of the story as I can. I enjoy playing different specs on different characters while doing CQ. Getting gear is fun too but it's not what's been keeping me playing.

 

But now, 7.0 is going to be a job. It took me over 20 hours to get CQ done on my character this week, and that was with 12-18k from getting renown levels and optimizing everything I could - while 7.0 will force me into specific, longer content if I want to actually upgrade my gear in the prospect. I'm guessing it will take me much longer from now on.

 

It's not fun. I don't understand really, with CQ rewards being, frankly, a total joke, why make it so hard to reach on several characters? Why do you even care if I reach max IR for one character a bit faster, if IR is going to be capped for several months anyway and I'll still have to get legendaries and weapons on all my characters? And I don't even group, so why does it matter to anyone if I'm fully geared for ONE character two weeks earlier than others?

 

The sad thing is that it's the smaller guilds that are going to suffer from this the most. The big guilds won't care and will just kick inactive characters, while the most casual ones really needed those 50k CQ points weekly. And I'm not looking forward to having to look for a new guild every time I log on a character that has been neglected because there's just no more time to play all my toons anymore.

 

I don't really understand what you don't understand. Is someone forcing you to play 20 + alts? No, it's your choice. Now it's going to be harder because it was a total mess in 6.0. 50 k conquest you could have easily do in 20 minutes playing whatever. This created people wanting to take advantage of the system, creating thousand alts and every conquest completed was pure cash. They are combating the plague they created which in my opinion is a step in good direction. Is the transition going to be hard? Yes, it will take some time to adjust.

 

But it's the same with every change, in every game.

 

I just wish people think for a second, what is making this game worse, instead of looking at their personal loss.

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I said they could do "some kind of diminishing returns on the credits when you repeat them outside of a daily&weekly reset." instead of nerfing them for everyone in response to your point about it supposedly being to appeal to the masses and your response is that I want the rewards and a not-so-subtle attempt to put me in the same category as people you suspect of being credit farmers. You obviously didn't read a word I said, no point in supplying you with more words for you to not read.

 

My point was that they build games that are created for the masses, not for small groups that consume large amounts of content.

 

The average person has a life, job, school, and family. They play a few hours in the evening after work or school.

 

The minority of people play 8+ hours a day and have tons of alts.

 

If you build it for a minority, you make the majority of people feel badly as they cannot compete against the minority.

 

It is clear that the system was being heavily abused by a minority of players.

 

Where is the line? Ask the devs for the data!

 

How many alts does the average player have? The devs normally do not change systems willy-nilly!

I prefer to rely on data but i would suspect the number is 4. :)

Edited by Dein_Cathair
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I don't really understand what you don't understand. Is someone forcing you to play 20 + alts? No, it's your choice. Now it's going to be harder because it was a total mess in 6.0. 50 k conquest you could have easily do in 20 minutes playing whatever. This created people wanting to take advantage of the system, creating thousand alts and every conquest completed was pure cash. They are combating the plague they created which in my opinion is a step in good direction. Is the transition going to be hard? Yes, it will take some time to adjust.

 

But it's the same with every change, in every game.

 

I just wish people think for a second, what is making this game worse, instead of looking at their personal loss.

 

And my point is that it was completely unnecessary to make so many changes to it, as they removed the credit rewards associated with CQ.

 

Total overkill that is just frankly going to ruin the game for people who enjoy playing their alts.

 

My point was that they build games that are created for the masses, not for small groups that consume large amounts of content.

 

The average person has a life, job, school, and family. They play a few hours in the evening after work or school.

 

The minority of people play 8+ hours a day and have tons of alts.

 

If you build it for a minority, you make the majority of people feel badly as they cannot compete against the minority.

 

It is clear that the system was being heavily abused by a minority of players.

 

Where is the line? Ask the devs for the data!

 

How many alts does the average player have? The devs normally do not change systems willy-nilly!

I prefer to rely on data but i would suspect the number is 4. :)

 

You're talking about a game that makes you play 8 characters to get some cool perks, FYI.

 

And again, complete overkill in the way the devs handled it. Doubling the CQ goal and removing the credit rewards? Fair. Making most of the infinitely repeatable goals daily? Total overkill.

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And my point is that it was completely unnecessary to make so many changes to it, as they removed the credit rewards associated with CQ.

 

Total overkill that is just frankly going to ruin the game for people who enjoy playing their alts.

 

 

 

You're talking about a game that makes you play 8 characters to get some cool perks, FYI.

 

And again, complete overkill in the way the devs handled it. Doubling the CQ goal and removing the credit rewards? Fair. Making most of the infinitely repeatable goals daily? Total overkill.

 

No matter how you try to spin it, you always go back to the credits and rewards.

 

When I started this game (on launch day) they had no such systems and it was fine.

 

People farming cq to get flagship plans on 30 toons each week and selling each for 2 million is an abuse of the game.

 

Do I need 100k credits each week in the personal cq rewards? Heck no.

 

The extreme hardcore players have caused massive inflation by abusing the game.

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No matter how you try to spin it, you always go back to the credits and rewards.

 

When I started this game (on launch day) they had no such systems and it was fine.

 

People farming cq to get flagship plans on 30 toons each week and selling each for 2 million is an abuse of the game.

 

Do I need 100k credits each week in the personal cq rewards? Heck no.

 

The extreme hardcore players have caused massive inflation by abusing the game.

 

Lord.

 

Inflation is not caused by one player selling to another. For example, if you and I both have three million credits, but you also have (to use your example) a Flagship plan, that you wish to sell to me for three million, well, then you have six million credits, I have none, but I have a flagship plan.

 

If you think CQ is "abusing" the system then your math needs some refinement. 30 (again, using your logic) toons selling a single flagship plan apiece (at 2 mill, which is under CMV atm) is 60 million credits. That's pocket change. I spend that much on materials for crafting every week.

 

Whether or not you think you need 100k credits is irrelevant. Whether or not I spend 60 million on crafting a week is irrelevant. The point is, there is a credit generation mechanism being abused by certain people. On a whole 'nuther level.

 

Why EA hasn't put for the resources to stop them is the topic of another thread.

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Lord.

 

Inflation is not caused by one player selling to another. For example, if you and I both have three million credits, but you also have (to use your example) a Flagship plan, that you wish to sell to me for three million, well, then you have six million credits, I have none, but I have a flagship plan.

 

If you think CQ is "abusing" the system then your math needs some refinement. 30 (again, using your logic) toons selling a single flagship plan apiece (at 2 mill, which is under CMV atm) is 60 million credits. That's pocket change. I spend that much on materials for crafting every week.

 

Whether or not you think you need 100k credits is irrelevant. Whether or not I spend 60 million on crafting a week is irrelevant. The point is, there is a credit generation mechanism being abused by certain people. On a whole 'nuther level.

 

Why EA hasn't put for the resources to stop them is the topic of another thread.

 

The CQ system has been abused.

 

I can't think of how many times I've seen people on auto-follow during a rampage during Relics of the Gree as Defeat enemies 2 keeps appearing on my screen over and over.

 

The cq rewards have been abused in regards to people creating alts for the singular purpose of gaining and selling flagship plans. 50k cq was super easy to get on every toon.

 

As far as 'you" personally spending 60 million per week on crafting mats.. It only illustrates how inflation has been out of control.

 

I came back to the game in Mid Sept with 5 milion credits and turned that into several billion in a few months. #boring.

 

The system was being abused and did cause inflation as people farmed out large amounts of credits using a flawed system which DID lead to inflation.

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