Favoring casuals over your core fanbase

[xordevoreaux]

you are in minority, most of casuals left long ago

This narrative is absolutely 100% false. Again, you're merely trying to support your position with a ludicrous and substantiated claim.

Edited August 2, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[Sareeph]

Just to briefly address this, while that might be true for most causal players, these 'casuals' make up the vast majority of online player base for all games. What does that mean? It means that when one of these people gets bored after a year and leaves for another game, another one just pops right in to take their place.

 

While player retention is an important metric for MMO's, especially subscription models, it's important to remember that in every game, player turnover is always going to be high. There are so many options available that when someone feels the least bit bored it's usually easier to just jump ship then it is to actually try to invest more in the current game. This is true of all games, and is not a condition that any can avoid.

 

These casual players are still the bulk of any player base, they're the 'fodder' if it makes you feel better and in a game where the casual contributes the same monthly sub as the 'hardcore' the math says you cater to the majority. Not liking the system doesn't alter reality.

 

Are you aware that this game had 3.8% active accounts vs total at the end of 2020? Your idea that casuals leave and another just pops in to replace them does not seem to stand up to these figures. The population has declined significantly over the years with many who left stating they were leaving due to poor decisions from the dev's. Your assertion that the bulk of players are casual may or may not be true but with the small player base we have, I personally do not believe we have too many more "poor decision" exodus' left.

[xordevoreaux]

Are you aware that this game had 3.8% active accounts vs total at the end of 2020? Your idea that casuals leave and another just pops in to replace them does not seem to stand up to these figures. The population has declined significantly over the years with many who left stating they were leaving due to poor decisions from the dev's. Your assertion that the bulk of players are casual may or may not be true but with the small player base we have, I personally do not believe we have too many more "poor decision" exodus' left.

 

That same website shows a year-over-year increase between 2020 and 2021 for the game from a total 2020 tally of 286,480 to a year-to-date tally for 2021 of 345,039.

 

Doesn't look like a decline to me. Looks like the numbers are improving.

Edited August 3, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[Luckjim]

you are in minority, most of casuals left long ago, i can tell it from my ranked experience - same people in queue on both sf and dm since season 9. You can say that "you see same people in queue because casuals aren't even trying ranked" but the problem is that online population in this game drops significantly which is a fact yet, as i said ranked community remains stable for years. Same for NiM ops because same people running it in guilds and only sometimes they do replacements with new players. Yet player population continues to drop as i said and it's a rhetorical question who is leaving from the game - hardcore players or casual

 

Are you really arguing that casuals have all left the game because the same people are playing Ranked and NIM OPS? That makes no sense at all. AT ALL.

[TrixxieTriss]

That same website shows a year-over-year increase between 2020 and 2021 for the game from a total 2020 tally of 286,480 to a year-to-date tally for 2021 of 345,039.

 

Doesn't look like a decline to me. Looks like the numbers are improving.

 

That 5 year chart is interesting to look at. It would be even more interesting to know what the mix is of subscribers to free to play. It’s a shame we’ll never know.

 

It makes me wonder where they got the real data from before Bioware put swtor on steam because Bioware removed the ability to track population numbers a few years ago when they merged the servers.

 

It also makes me wonder if the current data includes players not using steam. And if so, where are they getting that data from because it’s no longer available on this website.

 

Which means the numbers are potentially even higher than 345,039. But that’s only if the numbers are publicly available to compare.

 

Numbers by themselves don’t tell the whole story. I would love to know what drove those big dips on that graph and if they are subscribers leaving, new games launching, covid lock downs or opens happening, announced game changes or actual new content.

 

What’s really telling is the last drop started when Galactic Seasons launched, conquest was changed and they removed the referral program and the numbers kept going down until the expansion was announced.

 

Does that mean GS was a failure or that the removal of the referral system was a bad idea or conquest changes made people play less.

 

If I could be bothered I’d go back along that timeline and try and match up patches, game changes and announcements to see if any matches the increases or dips in population. It would be awesome if any one wants to number crunch for the rest of us and try and match up the time line.

Edited August 3, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Luckjim]

That 5 year chart is interesting to look at. It would be even more interesting to know what the mix is of subscribers to free to play. It’s a shame we’ll never know.

 

It makes me wonder where they got the real data from before Bioware put swtor on steam because Bioware removed the ability to track population numbers a few years ago when they merged the servers.

 

It also makes me wonder if the current data includes players not using steam. And if so, where are they getting that data from because it’s no longer available on this website.

 

Which means the numbers are potentially even higher than 345,039. But that’s only if the numbers are publicly available to compare.

 

Numbers by themselves don’t tell the whole story. I would love to know what drove those big dips on that graph and if they are subscribers leaving, new games launching, covid lock downs or opens happening, announced game changes or actual new content.

 

What’s really telling is the last drop started when Galactic Seasons launched, conquest was changed and they removed the referral program and the numbers kept going down until the expansion was announced.

 

Does that mean GS was a failure or that the removal of the referral system was a bad idea or conquest changes made people play less.

 

If I could be bothered I’d go back along that timeline and try and match up patches, game changes and announcements to see if any matches the increases or dips in population. It would be awesome if any one wants to number crunch for the rest of us and try and match up the time line.

 

The problem is that even matching dips to announcements, patches, or updates it still wouldn't tell you anything because there's no context. How many people subscribed because it was gift and when it expired they didn't renew? How many people only subscribed using the Amazon or Origin deals that had a time limit on how often you could use them (hint: for a couple of years I only used the Amazon deal to subscribe. I would got to FTP or play a different game until I could use the special again). How many cancelled subscriptions that they didn't realize was auto-renewing? There are so many variables for why subscriptions lapse that all we can say, with our incomplete information, is that there is correlation but not necessarily causation.

[TrixxieTriss]

The problem is that even matching dips to announcements, patches, or updates it still wouldn't tell you anything because there's no context. How many people subscribed because it was gift and when it expired they didn't renew? How many people only subscribed using the Amazon or Origin deals that had a time limit on how often you could use them (hint: for a couple of years I only used the Amazon deal to subscribe. I would got to FTP or play a different game until I could use the special again). How many cancelled subscriptions that they didn't realize was auto-renewing? There are so many variables for why subscriptions lapse that all we can say, with our incomplete information, is that there is correlation but not necessarily causation.

 

True, but you could pick out some simple patterns (if there are any) that may correspond with key game changes.

Ie, why was there such a big dip after April? Was it GS? Was it the removal of referrals? Was it changes to conquest?

It’s obvious the current uptick corresponds to the recent expansion announcement. But Bioware also organised for some famous twitch streamers to play the game and they could have contributed as well.

Edited August 3, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Luckjim]

True, but you could pick out some simple patterns (if there are any) that may correspond with key game changes.

Ie, why was there such a big dip after April? Was it GS? Was it the removal of referrals? Was it changes to conquest?

It’s obvious the current uptick corresponds to the recent expansion announcement. But Bioware also organised for some famous twitch streamers to play the game and they could have contributed as well.

 

Or how many months was it since the first or last episode of The Mandalorian (which we know brought in new subscriptions)? there are too many variables and I would hate to see people only seeing the patterns they're looking for.

 

This is not to say that, in general, you may be right.

[Luckjim]

Also this thread is pretty unproductive because there's not an agreed definition of what is a "casual" or a "core fanbase" player. As we've seen from multiple posts, there are just as many definitions of those two roles as there are posters. Until we can all start with an agreed definition it's just another tired thread with people yelling at each other. And we have plenty of those to spare.

[MelodyofLegends]

Casual here, been subbed since July of 2013 and missed only a single month of subbing in 8+ years, so your generalization doesn't hold.

 

Another 'Casual' here myself! I've been consistently subbing since shortly before the launch of F2P, With very little halting to my sub status, I can confirm his generalization holds MINIMAL weight over those who make up the so-called 'CORE' base!

 

The difference is that most 'casuals' like myself tend to keep our mouths shut and play the game. (It's not perfect but nothing is, and the positives outweigh my complaints. I love SWTOR in spite of its flaws but will happily take improvements as they come)

 

I guarantee this is a case of the silent majority versus the loud vocal minority.

Edited August 3, 2021 by MelodyofLegends

[TrixxieTriss]

Or how many months was it since the first or last episode of The Mandalorian (which we know brought in new subscriptions)? there are too many variables and I would hate to see people only seeing the patterns they're looking for.

 

This is not to say that, in general, you may be right.

 

Yeah, that’s also a good point. Shame the data can’t be broken down by regions too because some would have had the Mandalorian release on different schedules (depending on if Disney a streaming was in that country/region).

It’s why I wouldn’t include those sorts of things because I think that would average out over a 6-12 months.

 

But say there was a world wide release of a new movie, then of course that would have a major impact on all SW IPs world wide. Being able to compare the different SW games during that period would be really interesting.

I’d love to see a Disney run post questionnaire or poll during a movie/TV release like that asking people who sign into or up for SW games if the screen release influenced their game choice and why.

[TrixxieTriss]

Also this thread is pretty unproductive because there's not an agreed definition of what is a "casual" or a "core fanbase" player. As we've seen from multiple posts, there are just as many definitions of those two roles as there are posters. Until we can all start with an agreed definition it's just another tired thread with people yelling at each other. And we have plenty of those to spare.

 

Also another good post and question posed. Until that is defined, it could mean many different things.

[Luckjim]

I’d love to see a Disney run post questionnaire or poll during a movie/TV release like that asking people who sign into or up for SW games if the screen release influenced their game choice and why.

 

One of the things that I don't like about SWTOR is that there's not a questionnaire asking for the reason you unsubscribed. I love giving specific reasons why I do something and I would think Bioware would like to have these things quantified. I mean it seems like a no-brainer for them to want to know why I cancelled the same month as an expansion is launched; is it because I didn't like it or maybe it's just because I got into one of my regular Dragon Age 2 kicks and will be back once I get it out of my system?

Edited August 3, 2021 by Luckjim

[Hadsil]

Also this thread is pretty unproductive because there's not an agreed definition of what is a "casual" or a "core fanbase" player. As we've seen from multiple posts, there are just as many definitions of those two roles as there are posters. Until we can all start with an agreed definition it's just another tired thread with people yelling at each other. And we have plenty of those to spare.

 

I see it as Casuals are the ones who play once or twice a week for the stories, "Space Barbie", and/or the occasional starship shoot out. I only do the stories myself.

 

Hard Core are the active Guild Members, if they're in one, who do lots of PvP, get to 306 gear as fast as possible and/or get gear sets, and/or repeatedly do the Heroics, Flashpoints, Uprisings, and Operations. They don't necessarily play every day, but they play a lot because rankings and Conquests matter to them. This is a video game.

 

Neither way is wrong, and some players do both.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Hadsil

[casirabit]

And here we go again. Attacking people because they don't play like they do. I have been here since way before launch. Was even involved in forum roleplay while we waited for the game to launch. We actually formed our guild on the basis of the roleplay we were doing.

 

I really wish we could stop attacking one another on the basis of what we play or don't play. I am not a pvp player but yet one of my favorite forum members is Trixxie because of the way she presents her case and yet she loves pvp and therefore according to some of you I shouldn't respect her posts.

 

Everyone plays the game different and it is about time we respect the way other people play and stop these kind of posts because all this does is put each person at odds with another person and that is childish.

[Luckjim]

I see it as Casuals are the ones who play once or twice a week for the stories, "Space Barbie", and/or the occasional starship shoot out. I only do the stories myself.

 

Hard Core are the active Guild Members, if they're in one, who do lots of PvP, get to 306 gear as fast as possible and/or get gear sets, and/or repeatedly do the Heroics, Flashpoints, Uprisings, and Operations. They don't necessarily play every day, but they play a lot because rankings and Conquests matter to them. This is a video game.

 

Neither way is wrong, and some players do both.

 

Here's the rub about those definitions:

 

What if one does log in and play everyday but they never touch OPs, never touch group PvE, never do PvP. This person plays stories and space barbie exclusively but does enough content to gain conquest on multiple alts every week. By your definitions they don't fit either of those two categories. This person (me) plays way to often to actually count as a casual (if you're posting on the forums you are most definitely NOT a casual.) In fact this person (me) might consider their self a member of the core fanbase as they've been playing for years (6) and on average subscribe 7-9 months of the year.

 

What does casual even mean? There is "relaxed and unconcerned" and there is "not regular or permanent." Which of those definitions defines me or some of the other posters on this thread? I believe the OP intended to mean the latter but most of the people who responded, I believe, identify with the former. Did the OP mean to conflate the two together when contrasting against the "Core Fan Base" or was that something the self proclaimed "casuals" read into the post?

 

And those are questions that we should be asking ourselves before we even begin to get into what "Core Fanbase" means.

 

As long as we all have different ideas of what we're talking about, we can't really ever find common ground. We just end up as internet posters yelling over each other (which is happening way to often on these boards lately.)

[cmcougar]

yeah but there is a big problem - casual players aren't staying in swtor for long. maybe 1-2 years then they quit to wow, gw2, final fantasy. The real core in this game are those players who tryharding in NiM ops, ranked pvp, unranked etc. These tryharders fully dislike with simplifying the game (at least most of them). And i don't think that swtor will win from becoming more casual since there are many other more interesting MMO games which are also casual-accaptable yet with more content, bug fixes, pvp and devs fighting cheaters/credit sellers. Why would casual players come swtor if there are tonnes of other better games is a rhetorical question. And Star wars theme/lore has its own limits even for casuals

 

 

Totally disagree with this assessment. I am a very casual player and I have been here for seven years. I don't have any plans to leave either. I think this applies to quite a lot of us.

[cmcougar]

It is on you. You're the one who made the topic and did so out of ego/hubris. You're not saying anything that isn't being said in multiple topics already on the front page so why start another topic other than to make sure your voice is heard above all others as opposed to being one of many in another thread.

 

You're the one dictating what the game should and shouldn't be and to what people/players it should or shouldn't be trying to appeal to, so yeah it is on you.

 

 

Well said!

[OddballEasyEight]

I'm just here to add to the "I've been here since launch and I'm a casual" tally.

 

Let's not generalize based on our own limited opinions, shall we?

 

There's a lot of casuals in this game, and many of them obviously have stayed here for the last 10 years.

 

Add to that the fact that I don't like MMO's and MMO mechanics, and you can see why they might want to cater to "casuals" by trimming some of the MMO mechanics.

Edited August 3, 2021 by OddballEasyEight

[Damask_Rose]

As long as we all have different ideas of what we're talking about, we can't really ever find common ground. We just end up as internet posters yelling over each other (which is happening way to often on these boards lately.)

 

This is a chronic problem here. To make it worse, some people conflate "story player" with casual to further muddy the waters. And it really doesn't help that some players use those terms as pejoratives. (OP also has a very narrow concept of what RPG means in an MMO.)

 

The way I see it casual /hard core denotes how serously a player takes the game. Story/pvp/raider denotes what type of content you primarily play. But it isn't cut and dried. (I consider myelf a hard-core story player, but only a casual player overall. So when I label myself as a casual player, it's because I'm not competitive and I don't care about gearing as long as my gear gets the job done. That said, I'm not a fan of pruning. I like having situational skills.) These aspects can be mixed and matched and people can shift around within them. Core player isn't a term I've heard used. Google only turns up hard and mid-core as part of the casual to hard core contineum, not as a reference to transience.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Damask_Rose

[Nee-Elder]

As long as we all have different ideas of what we're talking about (aka the truth, reality, facts) we can't really ever find common ground. We just end up as internet posters yelling over each other, which is happening way to often on these boards lately.

 

Also happening across the entire interwebs. And in RL society too.

 

Anyways, back to this ever so constructive discussion....

 

On-topic: i've been here playing/testing SWTOR since 2011 (2008 registered) and i'm considered a "casual" , even though i've achieved nearly everything possible to achieve in the game. (other than a few NiM's bosses , Ranked PVP season stuff, GSF cheevos, armor set completions, etc. etc. )

 

And i play ESO but prefer SWTOR's supposed "complicated" combat style.

 

So, how then is 'LotS' combat revamp catering to me exactly?

 

Guess we'll all find out for sure in December.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Nee-Elder

[xordevoreaux]

And here we go again. Attacking people because they don't play like they do.

 

Everyone plays the game different and it is about time we respect the way other people play and stop these kind of posts because all this does is put each person at odds with another person and that is childish.

 

I agree, but I've come to realize the motivation for some people to create these threads is quite simplistic:

 

Attempting to establish (falsely) that a given type of player is the majority of the player base is a bid to legitimatize calls for content to be directed solely toward that type of player. The act of fending away any position counter to that is clumsy indeed, manifesting itself as an attack against any forum participant elevating that counter position. The thread creator and/or his supporters then pile on, the people with counter opinions react, and the thread acquires a life of its own.

Edited August 3, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[Nickodemous]

I guess I have a different perspective about things. I have worked in my particular field for 27 yrs and, during that time, I learned that I had to evolve in my profession to remain pertinent. In doing so I remain relevant and have never been passed up for a promotion. The guys and gals who refused to adapt to an ever changing industry (because "that is the way we have always done it"), well, have moved on to brighter pasture.

 

I am sure the gaming industry is no different.

 

I have always told myself this: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

 

I will be patiently waiting to see how Swtor evolves to its ever changing industry and make my own decision about the game after it is all said and done.

[omaan]

This narrative is absolutely 100% false. Again, you're merely trying to support your position with a ludicrous and substantiated claim.

 

It's and absolute fact, axiom. Everyone witness that populaiton has dropped drastically during last few years and continues to drop. You can also check statistics on steam which of course isn't covering whole playerbase (because various players aren't using steam) but shows huge amount of players activity. It's also being noticed by players who still playing the game because they see how players quit the game and that the number of their friends/guild mates/group mates decreases with time. You can't say that players aren't leaving this game rapidly, it would be absolutely wrong. And now a great number of players showed their disagreement with upcoming ability pruning which will only aggravate situatuon in swtor

[Raphael_diSanto]

Just another filthy casual here, been playing since beta. I used to play every day, but even when I played a lot, I never chased achievements, and I never do "hard" content. I play video games to relax and unwind, not to be all hardcore and super-focused. I'm usually watching TV while I play.

 

Oh, and I support simplification of combat skills. For me, TOR has too many buttons. I deal with it because that's kind of the way it is, and it's the only MMO that I've ever played that actually has RPG elements. (I freely admit that I have a different definition of "RPG elements" to most everyone else)

Edited August 3, 2021 by Raphael_diSanto