'MMO' does NOT mean boring lengthy endgame grindfest

[Enako]

Due to a few questions posed in numerous threads i wanted to make this thread in order to open a discussion about what does 'mmo' entail.

 

for particular reasons, the definition of mmo, at least for the vocal minority, seems to have become synonymous with 'boring endgame grindfest gear/boss progression', mainly due to wow and how much it has been hyped. its as if other gameplays, game styles, and also mmos that do not employ this 'progressive endgame gear-grindfest' do not exist.

 

notice that its not that i dont respect these people, their perspective, or their particular gameplay preference. i do. but, the problem is, these people think and demand that ONLY their perspective and preference is valid, and every game should be changed to suit their taste, and everyone oblige by their taste. and there can be no objections.

 

i will quote a few posts of mine in order to not retype them here, to illustrate how this perspective looks to eyes of an outsider - especially a former insider - like me . but before that, i will give a former thread with various gaming industry articles and statistics to preemptively clear 'how do you figure that' questions beforehand :

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=83208

 

and now here is how does it look to an outsider :

 

let me answer you in their stead :

 

mmo for the people who cram in the mmo forums of hardcore progressive mmos basically can be summarized as :

 

making your statistics on your gear progress by gathering 0.1% drop chance rewards by repetitively grinding through 'end game' instances/raids through excessive effort for aeons .

 

 

..........................

 

we also are afflicted with a huge number of these here, mainly due to the fact that blizzard has seen how badly this affected subscriptions, gameplay content (only 5% had had seen molten core or similar endgame 'content' for example) and therefore led to a decline in the mmo eventually - and then proceeded to nerf their game to make it more accessible.

 

aaaand they drop in to the next big mmo as they always do, they are here, they are already level 50 and they already had had started complaining about how this game was not hardcore enough since when they were level 10.

 

...............

 

there you have it.

 

this is the insatiable menace of mmo gaming. in their mind, their opinion, their preference, their 'endlessly effort requiring pathetically rewarding gear progression/achievement' surpasses ALL. basically it is what gaming should be, for them. ANY game that is not as such, is some kid's toy. (as if simulations, strategies do not exist).

 

ANY game therefore, has to be like that, and anyone who is not foolish enough to grind/toil for 2-3 hours every night and then sit in front of the computer in tension and effort through 4 hours 2 week nights without even taking off to going to the loo, is not a 'gamer' but something they deride as 'casual' or 'carebear'.

 

in case you noticed, they have rushed to level 50, did not enjoy the content, did not enjoy the story, did not enjoy the scenery, did not explore the game - they 'achieved' level 50 and now complaining.

 

.....................

 

in fact, there is NO mandatory definition of a mmo. swg was a mmo. eve is a mmo. ANYthing can be a mmo as long as it is massively multiplayer. there is NO requirement for gear progression or end boss beating through long efforts.

 

also, i think complaints are driven not out of genuine reasons, but more sublime, implied reasons - most of people who are complaining, are not actually complaining at all - here is what i noticed :

 

in addition, coming here complaining about how they hit level 50, how they did 'everything' and how the game is 'bad' and 'lacking' and they cant find 'anything' to do this and that, are just subconscious and implied expressions of 'look look ! im so good that i beat this game so fast. all see my achievement'.

 

the extent of expressed malcontent, boredom, disgust is proportional to how much they want to stress their success. they have succeeded SO well that they are now bored proportionally.

 

................

 

there is no fix for this kind of mindset. the only way this mindset can be happy, is continually acquiring games they did not 'beat' yet, and 'beating' them. noone, no company, no game can satiate these people.

 

i have been there. i have done that. when you are like that, you are insatiable.

 

edit :

 

i wanted to include the below quote in this first original post - this quote is a post from a player in another discussion - it basically exemplifies what i have been proposing about ex-wow players who were turned off by blizzard simplifying wow and introducing pandas and whatnot, are the majority of complainers here and they want swtor to be what blizzard kicked out of wow :

 

You can tell me to go back to WoW until you're blue in the face. It's not happening. Not because I'm a SWTOR fanboy (which I am proud to say that I am), but because WoW died for me in the Cataclysm expansion. The announcement of Pandas in Panda Land being trained in Kung Fu by Chuck Norris while playing Pokemon pretty much sealed the deal forever for me.

 

Do I love everything about SWTOR? Certainly not, but I think they have one hell of a product that I will gladly pay for on a monthly basis for my entertainment wants/needs.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Enako

[AlkalineKitten]

It does mean massively multiplayer, which in my experience grouping and leveling and even in PvP has not been delivering on the massive aspect.

[Lonewolf]

It does mean massively multiplayer, which in my experience grouping and leveling and even in PvP has not been delivering on the massive aspect.

 

Massive refers to the games size, the Multiplayer part refers to playing with other human beings, which in PvP I believe you are fighting against and with other people.

 

Just wanted to clarify that

[Enako]

It does mean massively multiplayer, which in my experience grouping and leveling and even in PvP has not been delivering on the massive aspect.

 

incorrect.

 

swg was a massively multiplayer game. but people did not group up to level. or people did not even group up. people had engaged in massively participated events, trading, construction, even politics !

 

eve is also a massively multiplayer game. however you may or may not be grouping while leveling - there are a lot that happens in a massively multiplayer scene without needing to group up and level.

 

there are other examples.

 

basically, a massively multiplayer has a single ingredient : many people interacting. in however way.

[Perfik]

the flame boys and haters will come here and say that you are a casual, zombie and other funny things

 

they do not understand what you say because their IQ is lower than <10

They do not know what MMO means, they believe MMO means WOW

 

I tottaly agree with you

 

MMO is not a GRINDFEST

MMO is not killing the same boss for months to gear up 25 ppls

MMO is not "click accept on quest" "it doesnt' matter what it says" "i kill 10 boars" "go back" "click accept again" "exp"

 

some ppls do not get their facts straight. Every mmo they play they see it as WOW2 or XXXgame2 . Thank god most of them leave after the free month and the community will stabilize after that

 

+1 @OP

[Umbral]

Orrrr given that the game offers very little that is new, and evidently not much that is challenging, people that are used to playing mmos and have a lot of time on their hands were able to eat through the content very quickly.

 

Oh, but wait, I get it, we are supposed to live in a bubble of time where nothing and no one evolves. Thus mmo gamers are still supposed to be like they were 10 years ago, and want the same things as mmo gamers wanted 10 years ago.

 

Hey, no worries, apparently Bioware/EA agree with that theory, and are prepared to go down swinging that theory hard.

[VonZimmerman]

some ppls do not get their facts straight. Every mmo they play they see it as WOW2 or XXXgame2 . Thank god most of them leave after the free month and the community will stabilize after that

 

 

+1

 

(and again, because there is a minimal character post)

[Kunitsukami]

The problem is that you need an idea which will work instead of grinding. To make every single quest wildly different and make content interesting to absolutely everyone who plays it is impossible... not nearly impossible... just impossible.

 

Because people have different opinions and the major problem with opinions is that no matter what the evidence shows or suggests people think their opinions are right, and they will start a crusade in their own name to nay say everyone else.

[Enako]

Orrrr given that the game offers very little that is new, and evidently not much that is challenging, people that are used to playing mmos and have a lot of time on their hands were able to eat through the content very quickly.

 

or that you are just another one of that particular 'mmo should be a progressive grindfest' perspective.

 

as evidenced with the inconspicuous keywords that inevitably come up when such perspective is spoken.

 

games do not need to be 'challenging'. games, are entertainment simulators. they can be made to simulate/convey/effect ANYthing.

 

this can range from being able to fly an aircraft in a sim, to act of trading in a massively multiplayer setting, to jumping through flying bubbles in a platform game.

 

game is an entertainment simulator. what it simulates, totally depends on what kind of game it is.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Enako

[Enako]

The problem is that you need an idea which will work instead of grinding. To make every single quest wildly different and make content interesting to absolutely everyone who plays it is impossible... not nearly impossible... just impossible.

 

it is indeed impossible to make games interesting to everyone who plays.

 

but, it is possible to make them interesting to majority of people. there are many games with different ideas than grinding/gear progression and boss progression in mmo scene.

 

the problem is, the 5% minority blizzard had identified in their 'percentage of accounts which have seen endgame content' statistic, is VERY vocal. while the rest 95% rarely post in a mmo's forum, you will find that 5% endlessly and incessantly repeating the same thing, eventually making themselves believe that noone else out of their own outlook may be playing a game.

 

some even go as far to claim that, ALL games are like that or should be like that - they even attempt to change definition of what a 'game' is.

[Umbral]

 

some ppls do not get their facts straight. Every mmo they play they see it as WOW2 or XXXgame2 . Thank god most of them leave after the free month and the community will stabilize after that

 

+1 @OP

.... and the population dies, and the game suffers from extreme lack of revenue, and then the company supports the game less and less, and then the announcement is made the game is going F2P, and then you're logging in to essentially empty space typing "Bueller? .....Bueller?...........Bueller?"

 

Nice, SWTOR can aspire to be JUST like AoC, WAR, STO, DCUO, Darkfall, etc etc ......

 

 

Well I guess it's not all bad. At least one company out there understands who the customers that will keep a modern AAA mmo alive and thriving REALLY are........

[Lonewolf]

Orrrr given that the game offers very little that is new, and evidently not much that is challenging, people that are used to playing mmos and have a lot of time on their hands were able to eat through the content very quickly.

 

Oh, but wait, I get it, we are supposed to live in a bubble of time where nothing and no one evolves. Thus mmo gamers are still supposed to be like they were 10 years ago, and want the same things as mmo gamers wanted 10 years ago.

 

Hey, no worries, apparently Bioware/EA agree with that theory, and are prepared to go down swinging that theory hard.

 

Did I miss a beat, did FPS's evolve since the days of Wolfenstein? Did RTS's evolve since the days of Dune2?

 

I think not, little changes and improvements have occurred over the last 20yrs but the fundamental gameplay remains the same

[Kunitsukami]

it is indeed impossible to make games interesting to everyone who plays.

 

but, it is possible to make them interesting to majority of people. there are many games with different ideas than grinding/gear progression and boss progression in mmo scene.

 

the problem is, the 5% minority blizzard had identified in their 'percentage of accounts which have seen endgame content' statistic, is VERY vocal. while the rest 95% rarely post in a mmo's forum, you will find that 5% endlessly and incessantly repeating the same thing, eventually making themselves believe that noone else out of their own outlook may be playing a game.

 

some even go as far to claim that, ALL games are like that or should be like that - they even attempt to change definition of what a 'game' is.

 

Give me 1 example of an MMORPG which doesn't use grinding in some aspect.... just 1

[Mashy]

in addition, coming here complaining about how they hit level 50, how they did 'everything' and how the game is 'bad' and 'lacking' and they cant find 'anything' to do this and that, are just subconscious and implied expressions of 'look look ! im so good that i beat this game so fast. all see my achievement'.

 

the extent of expressed malcontent, boredom, disgust is proportional to how much they want to stress their success. they have succeeded SO well that they are now bored proportionally.

 

................

 

there is no fix for this kind of mindset. the only way this mindset can be happy, is continually acquiring games they did not 'beat' yet, and 'beating' them. noone, no company, no game can satiate these people.

 

i have been there. i have done that. when you are like that, you are insatiable..

 

That right there pretty much sums it up.

[Lonewolf]

Plus you have to remember that developers can only pump out so much content, even in a sandbox, you still require content to keep people interested, therefore grinding is a necessary evil not a wanted one.

 

Even Eve Online has SEVERE grind fests and that is a sandbox

 

Until a developer can devise a content tool which is capable of producing content automatically, and make it interesting, interactive and original, you will see games have grindfests until the end of time

[Enako]

.... and the population dies, and the game suffers from extreme lack of revenue, and then the company supports the game less and less, and then the announcement is made the game is going F2P, and then you're logging in to essentially empty space typing "Bueller? .....Bueller?...........Bueller?"

 

Nice, SWTOR can aspire to be JUST like AoC, WAR, STO, DCUO, Darkfall, etc etc ......

 

 

Well I guess it's not all bad. At least one company out there understands who the customers that will keep a modern AAA mmo alive and thriving REALLY are........

 

being uninformed is not bad.

 

insisting to remain uninformed, is.

 

unfortunately another problem with the 'hardcore progressive grindfest' group is, that they think they are the majority.

 

they are not.

 

i have given statistics and references in the initial post. the fact that you have claimed that hardcore progressive grinders leaving an aaa title, causes aaa titles to sink despite the references, proves all of my points.

 

ALL the games that copied wow/everquest's grindfest style, SANK.

 

the crowd you speak of, is around 5% according to blizzard's own statistics. they used that statistic to justify making the game more accessible in wrath of the lich king.

 

which has had happened to be the period wow made its apex, by the way.

 

Give me 1 example of an MMORPG which doesn't use grinding in some aspect.... just 1

 

second life . swg before it was turned into a wow clone. these are aaa or near-aaa titles. if you go outside aaa title zone, there are many more.

[Perfik]

 

 

Well I guess it's not all bad. At least one company out there understands who the customers that will keep a modern AAA mmo alive and thriving REALLY are........

 

now for your first part of your answer i only say that

 

Facts for swtor? i guess you have none.

 

do not compare SWTOR with AOC in which at the launch even the map wasnt' working

neither compare it with Warhammer Online with huge class/faction imbalances and blunt mechanics

 

SWTOR brings something New to the MMO and you guys blame it for that cause it isnt' WoW. Guess what friend WoW is outdated wake up

Edited December 30, 2011 by LexiCazam
Removed rude comment

[Enako]

Plus you have to remember that developers can only pump out so much content, even in a sandbox, you still require content to keep people interested, therefore grinding is a necessary evil not a wanted one.

 

in a sandbox developer work reduces to minimum.

 

that was why soe was able to put something spectacular like jump to lightspeed space expansion with their rather limited resources in star wars galaxies.

 

had had jump to lightspeed come some time before, and it had incorporated sandbox elements of open space trading, swg may have been already around.

 

while that exp as being developed, swg players were creating their own content through the sandbox - megacorporations that did manufacturing/trading, player cities, politics and mayoral elections in player cities and many more.

 

in retrospect, ALL of blizzard's considerable resources go to gameplay balancing (inevitable result of the progressive grindfests) and new grindfest content.

 

Even Eve Online has SEVERE grind fests and that is a sandbox

 

that is by choice. swg was not. eve basically ties two ends of the spectrum together for a particular niche - progressive hardcores which want open sandboxes.

 

Until a developer can devise a content tool which is capable of producing content automatically, and make it interesting, interactive and original, you will see games have grindfests until the end of time

 

exists to a great extent in second life, and popularized by minecraft.

 

these are rather extreme for aaa titles yet. but that does not mean their principles can be employed to certain extent.

[Sparklehorse]

Looks like another, "I know better than the devs how to make an end-game but I actually suggest nothing," threads.

 

Why did you feel the need to create an entirely new one when there are so many prior ones to choose from? You don't even need a search feature, just scroll through a few pages and you will find plenty of armchair dev threads this one would fit right into.

 

It's not that I don't want to believe in this fantasy wonderland where the perfect game evolves that satisfies every single type of player type in the genre, I really do. The problem is, it just doesn't exist.

 

What inevitably ends up happening when you try and make people play the way that you think they should play, is that you end up fracturing the community into different sub-factions and it becomes raiders versus soloers versus pvp'rs and creates a conflict where none needs to exist.

 

A good game will provide as much content for as many types of players as possible while realizing you certainly can't satisfy everybody. When a game does this properly, it will retain milliions of subs for multiple years. We know this to be true, there is a giant gorilla that sits within every thread like this one that proves what you say to be wrong.

 

Like it or not, that gorilla set the standard and in spite of all of the lesser educated, less experienced people that will tell you that game was all about raiding end-game. They would be wrong or intentionally being inept to prove a point.

 

Why can't we have it all? Why do we need people saying one group is better than the other therefore they should be catered to over the others?

 

The answer is, we can have it all. There can be content for everybody that doesn't need to come at the exclusion of others. If developers get this right, they get a popular game.

 

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

[DigitalPrime]

Game genres evolve. But their basics stay the same. FPS games, they evolve. But the core mechanic is still the same.

MMOs evolve, but the core mechnics stay the same. Whats wrong with this? Nothing IMO.

Why the hell would I want to buy an MMO and it be something totally different to what the genre is? GW2, a hack and slash anyone can do everything type of MMO. But people are saying this is inovation? Noooo, its just doing what 3rd person action hack and slash games have done for years, just in a MMO world. Is this inovation? No.. does it bring something new to the table... No!

 

Let games be what they are, If you dont like it, or expected more or something different. Maybe you should of read up on the net. Or not bought the game. Expecting a game genre to totally change is stupid! Remember, its the genre you picked to buy and play.

[Umbral]

being uninformed is not bad.

 

insisting to remain uninformed, is.

 

unfortunately another problem with the 'hardcore progressive grindfest' group is, that they think they are the majority.

 

they are not.

 

i have given statistics and references in the initial post. the fact that you have claimed that hardcore progressive grinders leaving an aaa title, causes aaa titles to sink despite the references, proves all of my points.

 

ALL the games that copied wow/everquest's grindfest style, SANK.

 

the crowd you speak of, is around 5% according to blizzard's own statistics. they used that statistic to justify making the game more accessible in wrath of the lich king.

 

which has had happened to be the period wow made its apex, by the way.

 

 

 

second life . swg before it was turned into a wow clone. these are aaa or near-aaa titles. if you go outside aaa title zone, there are many more.

Your flogging opinons, not actual facts. That 5% statistic, ya it was proven to be a fallacy. If it hadn't proven to be a fallacy people playing WoW would still be playing Wrath like content.

 

Second life is not a "game", and SWG lost 75% of the people that bought the box within a MONTH of release (that was approximately 550 000 players), and at the time the changes finally were made was hemorrhaging 10 000 subscriptions a month.

 

... and for the person that was trying to say that WoW isn't a AAA mmo, ya thanks for joining the genre this month, but please .....

 

I don't play the game, and haven't for a long time, but trying to say it's not a AAA mmo is just ludicrous. Whether I like it, or you like it, it is in fact THE AAA mmo standard at this time.

 

Funny thing is, just because people want a lot of the features that game has, doesn't mean they want a WoW clone, or a WoW endgame clone. People are just saying that they want some kind of endgame. Unfortunately when they voice that, it's twisted by people like the OP here......

[Lonewolf]

in a sandbox developer work reduces to minimum.

 

that was why soe was able to put something spectacular like jump to lightspeed space expansion with their rather limited resources in star wars galaxies.

 

had had jump to lightspeed come some time before, and it had incorporated sandbox elements of open space trading, swg may have been already around.

 

while that exp as being developed, swg players were creating their own content through the sandbox - megacorporations that did manufacturing/trading, player cities, politics and mayoral elections in player cities and many more.

 

in retrospect, ALL of blizzard's considerable resources go to gameplay balancing (inevitable result of the progressive grindfests) and new grindfest content.

 

 

 

that is by choice. swg was not. eve basically ties two ends of the spectrum together for a particular niche - progressive hardcores which want open sandboxes.

 

 

 

exists to a great extent in second life, and popularized by minecraft.

 

these are rather extreme for aaa titles yet. but that does not mean their principles can be employed to certain extent.

 

Your view of SWG is very biased, the developers spent exorbiant time fixing bugs, massive and mean MASSIVE exploits, constantly trying to fix the imbalance of beast masters. They even introduced arguably the worse patch in MMO history in an attempt to fix the completely broken engine they were using and fix the issues which were unfixable with the existing skill based design

 

I am no fan of WoW, but they are able to tweak and control changes in their engine and client, SWG failed because they strove to far and could not control the beast which in the end killed them completely.

 

Sandbox games are extremely difficult to control, look at Eve Online with their constant scandals involving exploits and cheats. Whilst in games like WoW they are kept to a very minimum as will be the same in SWTOR, it happens but not on such a grand scale as in a sandbox game.

 

Plus a sandbox game is much MUCH harder to develop for, because any new items can mess up the perfect utopian sandbox that people create for themselves.

 

Its the battle between control and order, or freedom and chaos

 

Plus they had deep pockets due to it being the first MMO game based off the Star Wars franchise

Edited December 30, 2011 by Lonewolf

[Laggmonster]

Many people seem to think in very simple terms. It seems to be that people either consider a game a "grind" or that it's "boring". It always seems to be one extreme or the other. Gone are the days of someone actually earning something and feeling a sense of satisfaction for a job well done. People are used to pressing a button to send a message, cook their food, or in the case of video games, entering a code to get that weapon / armor / powerup so they don't have to wait for it and can use it NOW. It's "now or never" it seems.

 

But one of the biggest things that irritates me about the entitlement issues is the phrase, "turning a game into a second job". I'd really love to have whatever job these people have that they think that sitting at a desk and pressing a few buttons now and then is "work". George Jetson himself would be jealous.

 

And if the "Massively" part is eluding people, I refer you to a post by Zoeller:

 

The overwhelming majority of players are in the sub level 30 range of the game at this point, taking their time.

 

Rushing to level 50 comes with a price, and that is that it's pretty lonely at the top for a while.

[HelluvaJedi]

This discussion is only useful as a way to dismiss complainers by telling them "that's not a requirement to be an MMO, here's the door".

 

People want what they think will make the game better. Big deal. If you disagree with them, ignore them or address their arguments on their merits.

[Enako]

Your flogging opinons, not actual facts. That 5% statistic, ya it was proven to be a fallacy. If it hadn't proven to be a fallacy people playing WoW would still be playing Wrath like content.

 

excuse me, if you dont know about something, DONT talk about it.

 

5% is the statistic of blizzard, which they made by checking how many accounts have seen endgame. this was explained in a blog post, and then over this, making game more accessible was justified.

 

there is nothing to discuss about that.

 

Your view of SWG is very biased, the developers spent exorbiant time fixing bugs, massive and mean MASSIVE exploits, constantly trying to fix the imbalance of beast masters. They even introduced arguably the worse patch in MMO history in an attempt to fix the completely broken engine they were using and fix the issues which were unfixable with the existing skill based design

 

exceptions do not make a rule. swg did not have the immense resources of neither wow, or swtor. not to mention game was rushed.

 

it was inevitable for there to be a lot of bugfixing effort.

 

and then lets look at wow :

 

I am no fan of WoW, but they are able to tweak and control changes in their engine and client, SWG failed because they strove to far and could not control the beast which in the end killed them completely.

 

wow has HUGE resources. its a major cash cow for vivendi. and all the expenses spent for it ranging from staff to advertising, support its position.

 

and what is happening with wow ?

 

most of the effort is spent for balancing and re balancing a game which is built on a progressive grindfest - and not even that is enough.

 

for see, there was the talent trees. they added specialization and flavor to the game, and different playstyles. but what happened ? as with passing time, and added talents, skills, levels, the talent trees not only became increasingly complex, but also become impossible to maintain in a balance. in wrath, they had had gone the way of leaving it to chances - ie 'if you are flying away in x speed, and chance to be in stance y, buff z may happen with t percent change and last k seconds'.

 

but even that did not suffice. i thought that they would eventually have to nerf entire trees, and then they first simplified trees, and then practically removed them.

 

that is what happens with progressive grindfest gaming. there is NO way to balance anything as time goes by, and you eventually have to erase the complexity and go back.

 

and that kills the game for progressive grindfest playstyle. who then flood other mmo forums.

 

Looks like another, "I know better than the devs how to make an end-game but I actually suggest nothing," threads.

 

Why did you feel the need to create an entirely new one when there are so many prior ones to choose from? You don't even need a search feature, just scroll through a few pages and you will find plenty of armchair dev threads this one would fit right into.

 

It's not that I don't want to believe in this fantasy wonderland where the perfect game evolves that satisfies every single type of player type in the genre, I really do. The problem is, it just doesn't exist.

 

What inevitably ends up happening when you try and make people play the way that you think they should play, is that you end up fracturing the community into different sub-factions and it becomes raiders versus soloers versus pvp'rs and creates a conflict where none needs to exist.

 

A good game will provide as much content for as many types of players as possible while realizing you certainly can't satisfy everybody. When a game does this properly, it will retain milliions of subs for multiple years. We know this to be true, there is a giant gorilla that sits within every thread like this one that proves what you say to be wrong.

 

Like it or not, that gorilla set the standard and in spite of all of the lesser educated, less experienced people that will tell you that game was all about raiding end-game. They would be wrong or intentionally being inept to prove a point.

 

Why can't we have it all? Why do we need people saying one group is better than the other therefore they should be catered to over the others?

 

The answer is, we can have it all. There can be content for everybody that doesn't need to come at the exclusion of others. If developers get this right, they get a popular game.

 

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

 

looks like you are one of the types just jumping into conclusions before reading threads.

 

and the 'endgame' keyword gives your preference out - the game should not be at the 'end'. it should be all over its phases.

 

.................

 

however next time, reply after noticing. if you go back and read, you will see that i am not someone who wants people to play the way I want them to - but, the people who want 'endgame progressive grindfests' are the ones who want ALL of us to play in their style - or else.

 

all the threads we have seen regarding complaints have been in that regard so far.

 

yes, we can have it all. but we can not, and should not, have it in one way that will eclipse all.

 

and because of the incessant speed the endgame progressive grindfest playstyle exhausts content, to satiate them most of the resources in a game has to go to supporting their playstyle. leaving little to other players, who constitute majority of gamers in a game.

 

moreover, for there to be hardcore grinded progression, ALL of the game needs to be formatted in that style - else they complain, like they do here. 'things are too easy to get' they say.

 

that is our problem.