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a thread to debate the merits of slicing changes (post here, not there)


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Posted

i was going to try to keep from writing too much about this but hey i like bashing my head against a wall in a game i still play for some reason i guess

 

Aim in a skill based game is a good thing, actually. I recognize the value a low skill floor provides, but I think proton torpedoes already fill this niche nicely. They have a very wide arc, a long range, and a moderate lockon time that rewards successful use with a lot of damage. There is counter play however so it's not a guaranteed way to affect another player, and this is a good thing.

 

An ability that doesn't respect LoS that shuts a player down just because you got close and pressed a key doesn't reward skilled gameplay in any way. While you can play around it, there isn't any true counter play; you can't stop someone who is utterly determined to slice you, and you have fewer options if you've got one or more who decide you shouldn't play the game. I think it's very important to know the difference between counter play and playing around something.

 

Someone in Discord suggested putting the abilities of slicing as they are on ion missile instead, and while I think that's a spectacular idea, I don't think the devs are going to put that much time into any changes. It's a shame though because this keeps the powerful option that some of you are used to leaning on without leaving it as something that can be used with no skill whatsoever.

 

Changes we get are changes to numbers only, if that.

 

With that in mind? Yeah, the changes in the other thread are the best compromise I've seen offered. I don't think it's enough, but it's not like I want to delete the ability either. I do want to see something that can totally shut a player down require at least some ability to use it. Failing that, it needs to be less of a "you stop playing now" button.

Posted

Someone in Discord suggested putting the abilities of slicing as they are on ion missile instead, and while I think that's a spectacular idea, I don't think the devs are going to put that much time into any changes.

 

I suspect you are correct given we generally don't see much done in regards to GSF, but this would be the ideal solution.

Posted
Remote slicing has too much impact relative to the effort required to use it. It's also on the Strike Fighter chassis which has so much shields, hull, engine power pool, and typically directional shields and power dive. These characteristics make RS ideal for trolling.
Posted

Hi, I'm Despon.

 

You may remember me from such YouTube Channels as GSF School and... GSF School.

 

I've returned to this forum today to offer you my thoughts on a few aspects of GSF which I strongly feel have hurt the game in the post-5.5 era. You may already suspect that one of the topics I'll choose to address is Remote Slicing. If you did, you're right! However, there is a broader topic of concern which encompasses RS and the EMP weapons. The underlying issues are inextricably linked. We'll get into them in a moment. First, I wanted to address a post from the petition thread, and felt that this was a more appropriate place to do so. If you want to skip to the Remote Slicing stuff, find the heading below.

 

A REBUTTAL

 

The devs aren’t going to completely alter part of a game just because of one thread full of people sheepishly agreeing with one person’s opinion.

There are a lot of reasons the dev(s) might not alter part of a game, and some reasons they potentially would, if indeed they still allot any time to GSF related concerns. I think it is unfair to characterize the support of the petition as 'sheepish,' implying that those who agree are simply moving with a herd. I know from extensive personal experience that many of my peers who have been in GSF a long time believe that RS is too effective. The degree to which it should be altered has been widely and extensively debated, but the vast majority of experienced pilots that I have spoken to feel it is too powerful. Sure, I'm speaking anecdotally and I don't have anything like a... signed petition... to back me up. So take it as you will. But I strongly disagree that this is 'sheepish' herd behavior.

 

Remote Slicing is absolutely fine, and there’s no need to nerf it. The ship it’s on isn’t particularly maneuverable or fast. Other than that one neat party trick, the T3 strike doesn’t hit very hard unless you’re really accurate with light lasers. Once you run out of protorps, or the ability goes on cooldown, congrats on being a poor man’s Rycer/Starguard.

I disagree strongly with pretty much everything you've argued here. We'll skip over the direct contention that RS is 'fine' for a moment to address the T3F. All of its primary weapons are good and can lay out plenty of damage, particularly to a disabled target. Protorps offer plenty of ammo, and getting more is quite possible. The T3F can field Power Dive, giving it an excellent tool to escape difficult engagements and extended mobility at no engine power cost. RS is also far from a 'party trick.' Used by a solo pilot, it delivers very powerful control especially when combined with various copilot abilities. Used by a coordinated team, it is devastating. While the T3F doesn't have the raw offensive output of a few other ships, it is very lethal and is a fully viable ship in all situations.

 

If you’re smart about using LoS, or staying close enough to the ship that the pilot can’t fire a missile, all that slicing will have been for naught. The counters to this are many, as they are for every ship in GSF.

Again, I disagree. The RS effect will at the very least nullify the target's capacity to take much meaningful action for the duration of the debuffs. Even assuming that the target is skilled or lucky enough to get under cover before the protorp lock finishes, you have taken them out of the game for a period of time. Depending on who that target is, that can swing the balance of a match. The 'counters' to RS are a subject I'll address later in this post.

 

People just have to learn the skills needed to play the game, rather than gnash their teeth, cry, and demand that things be nerfed or taken out left and right.

I agree that people need to learn the skills needed to play the game. However, this is irrelevant to whether the game is in a balanced and healthy state. I strongly disagree with your characterization of those who find RS to be detrimental to the game. Reasonable and well thought-out arguments can be made justifying a call to alter RS.

 

Game balance is a tricky thing, and requires a lot of work. The work done in the now-ancient update that set the current state of the game was not completed. While many things were improved, and greater balance was achieved, some changes were not thoroughly tested and their impact became more evident over the course of time. I'll get into that now.

_

_

REMOTE SLICING, 'CONTROL,' AND THE PERFECT STORM

 

Remote Slicing, EMP Field, and EMP Missile all fall into a class of 'control' weapons. Each of these, in addition to applying various debuffs, locks out the player's capacity to use certain systems. Naturally, this is a very powerful effect, because the target can no longer use vital components of their ship and is rendered vulnerable to attack.

 

Prior to the massive game update several years ago, each of the aforementioned components were niche-oriented choices and had limited use. While the control elements of these weapons were powerful, they were fielded very rarely and had drawbacks or shortcomings which meant they were not often seen. The massive updates, however, changed things dramatically.

 

The short version of what happened is:

  1. Missiles on the whole became much stronger and harder to counter
  2. Strike Fighters received massive boosts to nearly all of their capabilities
  3. RS, EMPf, and EMPm all received significant boosts
  4. Proton Torpedoes were massively improved

 

GSF went from a state where 'control' abilities were niche choices on underpowered platforms (T2F, T3F, T1S) to a state where both the delivery platforms and weapons fielding 'control' abilities were much more powerful and desirable to fly. Ultimately, this resulted in matches where it was not uncommon for anyone near the action to be frequently hit with both targeted and unavoidable AoE 'control' effects that removed 2-3 of your primary control buttons for large stretches of the game, in addition to other debuffs.

 

Skill in GSF is applied to a significant degree by being able to efficiently utilize your 1, 2, 3, and 4 keys, activating your system, shield, engine maneuver or copilot ability to positive effect. While the copilot skill cannot be disabled, all three of the others can be, and frequently are. This removal of player agency and nullification of learned skill would be acceptable in small doses, as a punishing deterrent on a select number of platforms. When it is present on a large number of platforms, and is frequently seen in widespread use, it presents an unhealthy decrease in player agency and diminishes the role of skill in gameplay. The changes to the meta brewed a perfect storm where this environment of decreased player agency is common.

_

_

SKILL AND COUNTERPLAY

 

In my opinion, a powerful effect should require skill to successfully affect its target, and the target should have mechanisms with which to counter it.

 

Remote Slicing applies several powerful effects, and yet the only requirement to successfully land it on the target is being in range and pressing '1.' No lock-on is required. Line of Sight does not need to be established. Aiming is not required. You don't even need to face the target. This extremely powerful suite of effects is instantly and unavoidably applied, and there is no mechanical counter to it. Complicating matters, several very powerful copilot abilities can be coupled with Remote Slicing and they also require no LoS, no lock-on, and have no mechanical counter. There is no skill necessary to apply these effects beyond the most rudimentary gameplay of being able to fly in range of your opponent.

 

It is bad game design to enable players with no skill to easily land powerful effects on players with much greater skill. It removes the incentive to become skilled in the first place.

 

I have heard the argument that the 'counterplay' against RS is to fly very cautiously, scrupulously manage engine power, and fly with a group so you have teammates that can back you up when you inevitably get hit with it. I can't deny that these are effective at mitigating the damage RS does, but from a personal standpoint, it leads to a style of gameplay I don't enjoy and I feel it unduly punishes solo-queue players who prefer not to group - more on that in a moment. When well-known veteran pilots do decide to group queue, the usual response from the opposing players is that it is unfair of them, or they are somehow cowardly for being 'in a premade.' In the words of WOPR: "The only winning move is not to play."

_

_

GRIEFING

 

My strongest argument against Remote Slicing is that it is very easily deployed as a means to grief specific players. As a well-known player, I've dealt with this frequently. On many occasions, a particular player on the opposing team will decide it is their life's mission to fly within 5k of me, use RS and whatever co-pilot debuff they have, and keep doing it over and over for that match, the next match, the next match, etc. They do not care if they ever land a kill, do damage, die ten times, or what so long as they keep on RSing me over and over. During most of my playing 'career' I solo queued nearly all the time. I could not call on backup or hope for my teammates to peel for me. So, on a great many occasions, I faced one or more players who chain-sliced me every match.

 

The 'counterplay' to this is... to run away from them. This only works for so long, it prevents me from taking any meaningful action in the game other than trying to avoid them, and in general it makes for a miserable gameplay experience. In some matches, it resulted in a lot of deaths from being constantly disabled. In others when they were not able to follow up with killing me, I was forced to fly around without half my ship's abilities or much engine power for the whole match. And on those occasions when the same players kept chain-slicing me match after match, it was a waste of my time to bother playing.

 

I guess if you want to consider this last argument 'crying,' go ahead. But I certainly will not spend my time playing a game where just by virtue of being a known player, I am continually griefed by an unstoppable, crippling effect that nullifies the skill I practiced to develop which itself takes no skill to apply.

 

There have been many matches where I had plenty of deaths at the hands of a good shooter or a well coordinated team. I don't like being outplayed, but in those cases, my opponents earned their success... and I had tools to use in the game to counter their approach. Griefing someone with RS takes no skill, and the game offers no tools to counter it within the game mechanics.

_

_

FIXING REMOTE SLICING

 

My preferred method would be: remove it from the game entirely. I do like the idea of shifting some/most of its effects onto Ion Missile, which currently is useless. Ion Missile has a warning tone, a lock-on time, and mechanical counters within the game. It would be a powerful weapon that people had a fair chance to avoid.

 

My preferred 'tweak some numbers' method would be to significantly reduce the Engine drain and limit the button lockout to only one of either System, Shield, or Engine, with a reduced debuff time. I would also set it to require LoS in order to apply.

 

If we were in a world where GSF was in active development, I'd suggest possible alternate changes like:

  • make RS channeled, requiring LoS for the duration of the effect... or
  • reduce the range to 3k, add a warning tone and a 1.5s 'hacking in progress' stage before the effect is applied.
  • add a copliot ability 'Reboot' that reactivates any disabled systems
  • add an Armor component that reduces the duration of debuffs

 

...but we're not in that world.

 

RS is a badly designed component that does far too much for far too little effort.

 

I guess I could have just said that instead of this dissertation, echoing what some others said, but I wouldn't want to be 'sheepish.'

 

- Despon

Posted

I'm kind of torn on this issue.

 

On the one hand, tools that allow new or low-skill players to meaningfully impact a conflict between experienced or high-skill players is a good thing that makes the game more accessible.

 

On the other hand, I don't like abilities that lock players out of playing the game. These are obviously miserable.

 

The general idea of how to solve this is simple and obvious (make the low-skill abilities things that don't lock players out of playing), but I don't have any complete implementation to propose.

Posted
I'm kind of torn on this issue.

 

On the one hand, tools that allow new or low-skill players to meaningfully impact a conflict between experienced or high-skill players is a good thing that makes the game more accessible.

 

On the other hand, I don't like abilities that lock players out of playing the game. These are obviously miserable.

 

The general idea of how to solve this is simple and obvious (make the low-skill abilities things that don't lock players out of playing), but I don't have any complete implementation to propose.

 

Proton torpedoes. They are easy to aim, have a lot of impact, have a decent range, and stack well when a group of relatively inexperienced players are trying to use them.

 

They require at least some aim, but it's not hard to do. They're the component you're looking for.

Posted

I'd write a whole spiel but I'm sure Despon covered it.

 

The protorp changes on their own killed most of the "dogfighting" aspect - instead of chasing targets in close range and trying to land hits while dodging blaster fire most of gsf combat is now locking emp missiles or protorps and trying to evade locks when the missile break is on cooldown.

 

With protorps already ignoring armor AND bypassing shield they've already got enough power. Emp missiles require a lock and landing a hit for the disable to take effect and emp field requires close range and the scout that carries it isn't exactly packing a lot of punch.

 

RS not only can disable that missile break, but the energy drain and shield debuff too... There's just no real counter to prevent someone from lying in wait and rushing in - sure you can overwhelm a single slicer with numbers, but that's effectively the case for everything. We all know the gsf dynamic is generally lacking in organized play these days.

Posted (edited)

Great discussion in here! I wanted to jump in and let y'all know we're going to take a look at Remote Slicing for an upcoming update.

 

Thanks!

-Chris

 

Huh. I'm pleasantly surprised. Thanks for checking in! I would suggest paying particular attention to Despon's post as he both understands and can articulate the issues this component has in a clear way. Everything he's said there I agree with wholeheartedly.

Edited by DakhathKilrathi
Posted (edited)

Ok, sure why not. Lets talk about it...

 

Now what do you mean by Remote Slicing? I have all crew skills across my accounts and not heard of such a thing. Is this "Remote" unique to slicing? if so how, if not why is only slicing being looked at?

 

EDIt.

 

Never mind this thread clearly is not what I thought it was about after reading other player posts, I jumped right in from the link in Development Tracker.

Edited by DreadtechSavant
Posted

Great discussion in here! I wanted to jump in and let y'all know we're going to take a look at Remote Slicing for an upcoming update.

 

Thanks!

-Chris

 

Thanks a lot man, this is really good news!

Posted (edited)

Great discussion in here! I wanted to jump in and let y'all know we're going to take a look at Remote Slicing for an upcoming update.

 

Thanks!

-Chris

 

Holy Macaroni! I mean I thought we had half a chance if we got enough names on the petition, but to get a response before actually formerly submitting the petition, thank you so much! I really can't add anything that Despon hasn't already said. As the creator of petition and initiator of the current movement though, I would only like to say, let's get it right once and for good. We are happy as community for RS to stay. I don't mind dying to RS same as any other ability. I just don't want it to be so powerful that one player who has otherwise developed no real skill, can make it his life's mission to slice me on cooldown, irrespective of how many times he dies in the process. Because there is no counter to that other than play extremely cautiously and don't engage anyone. Any other component that someone decides to use to focus me, can be countered by choice of ship, and still be effective in-match. But you just can't counter something that disables everything your ship can do. As Despon said, the skill of GSF is the use of your buttons. RS removes all your buttons.So whether you enact my suggestion for a nerf or do something of your own design, please make sure it is what is needed. And once again thank you so much for the acknowledgement.

Edited by Ttoilleekul
Posted

I second everything Despon has written here. A good post, thanks Despon.

 

I would possibly replace it by a different component called something like:

 

ION SHIELD / PLASMA SHIELD

- Shields your ship and allied ships within 5000 metres from any EMP attacks, Ion splash.

- Tier 4 ability suggestions: Increase the effect radius by 1000 metres OR Increase evasion by 5-10% for the duration.

- Tier 5 ability suggestions: Increase the time an enemy ship needs to lock missiles on a protected ship by 1 second for the duration of the effect OR Increase evasion by an additional 5-10% for the duration.

- Duration: 10 seconds, 15 seconds when fully upgraded (tier 3).

- Cooldown: 45 seconds.

 

Something like that. I haven't wargamed it out completely in my mind yet and just wanted to get it out, so feel free to agree/disagree/add/detract/whatever to this idea.

Posted

Some crowd control mechanics in GSF are definitely too powerful, chief among them engine power drain and the massive, unavoidable area slow from interdiction drones. There's several components that drain some engine power, but it's usually a small amount, which could cause some inconveniences, but aren't usually deadly on their own. There's 3 abilities that drain enough engine power for it to be crippling, and they are the easiest to use. Those are Ion Railguns, Remote Slicing and Lockdown. These last two can be combined for a truly devastating effect. Having no engine power means you become a sitting duck, and that's just not fun. We are here to play, not to be prevented from playing.

 

Ion Railgun and Remote Slicing do enough already without the need for engine power drain, and could stand to have it removed from them. Lockdown just by itself is not really a problem, I think, mostly because it competes with several good abilities. Problem is when you combine it with another big drain. If engine power drain should be somewhere in the game, it should be on a missile. There's ways to deal with missiles, either by breaking LoS or using an engine ability, which means you have a skill based way to avoid being crowd controlled. I mentioned a while ago Ion Missile could be a good candidate for this. It already drains some engine power, but not enough to be devastating, though I personally would prefer if there was no crowd control at all. It's just not healthy.

Posted
I second everything Despon has written here. A good post, thanks Despon.

 

I would possibly replace it by a different component called something like:

 

ION SHIELD / PLASMA SHIELD

- Shields your ship and allied ships within 5000 metres from any EMP attacks, Ion splash.

- Tier 4 ability suggestions: Increase the effect radius by 1000 metres OR Increase evasion by 5-10% for the duration.

- Tier 5 ability suggestions: Increase the time an enemy ship needs to lock missiles on a protected ship by 1 second for the duration of the effect OR Increase evasion by an additional 5-10% for the duration.

- Duration: 10 seconds, 15 seconds when fully upgraded (tier 3).

- Cooldown: 45 seconds.

 

Something like that. I haven't wargamed it out completely in my mind yet and just wanted to get it out, so feel free to agree/disagree/add/detract/whatever to this idea.

 

I'm not against the idea of removing Remote slicing altogether, I just felt that was too much to ask for. I expected getting the devs attention to be hard, and getting them to agree to do anything even harder. Hence I asked for the easiest solution possible. Replacing slicing with a completely different systems ability could end up having dramatic meta changing consequences. Immunity to EMP and Ion AOE could become a real problem. Right now they are your direct counter to Bomber nests. As it is people already like to spam bombers in Domination. If it gets too heavy on the node you need to step back and deal with it using an Ion Gunship. Imagine that nest having immunity. It would be game over. It already is game over in many bomber spam situations as it is. So I'm inclined to lean toward no, leaving slicing in the game. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Again, speaking personally, I feel that if slicing required a similar level of skill to execute as Sabotage probes do, then I would have no problem with it when someone catches me with slicing. Yeah, Sabo-probes are annoying to be the recipient of, but you have to respect the skill of the person using it. I already believe of the sabo-probes that land on me, I survive more than I die. They are not easy to land, and a Strike with QCS, and Repairs can immediately use his shield and repair ability to mitigate the direct damage effects of the probe, while boosting to avoid the short range lasers on the Scout trying to kill him. I actually play sabo-probes myself, and while people may dislike it as much as slicing. its far from a case of press 1 and 4 to kill someone. The average slicer could not effect a sabo-probe kill. The point of my long winded explanation: if slicing was +/- same skill requirement / difficulty to use as Sabo-probes, then I would be happy that they earned their kill. It all depends how much the devs want to do here, but a simple number change in a line of code is much less work and needs much less testing than a potentially meta changing alternative.

Posted

The old remote slicing was so meaningless it was forgettable. It needed a buff - but given the dynamic all the other changes introduced, clearly too much power was added.

 

What we really need to do is revisit our friend the proton torpedo - once that sees adjustment then RS can be balanced properly to be useful without becoming overbearing.

Posted
The old remote slicing was so meaningless it was forgettable. It needed a buff - but given the dynamic all the other changes introduced, clearly too much power was added.

 

What we really need to do is revisit our friend the proton torpedo - once that sees adjustment then RS can be balanced properly to be useful without becoming overbearing.

 

I don't agree. I mean for sure yes I'd love to see the DOTs removed from Protons. Maybe 0.2s added to it's lock on time. But even if Slicing didn't have Protons available to use, it would still need a nerf. When i die from slicing it's rarely from a proton launched by the Slicer. It's usually from the incoming fire / missiles from other players.Or when Ten Chi sliced me yesterday, he was smart enough to start locking my GS so that I started moving and used some engine power, once I used a bit of engine power he *then* applied the slice and lockdown. Then I was literally unable to move and I was an easy kill to his lasers. The point and the problem is that it disables all your buttons and movement. Protons are easier to handle without that issue. Also I want to stress again about not asking for too much. The more simple we keep this the more chance the devs take action.

Posted

You're misunderstanding what I'm getting at....

 

I'm talking about the whole protorp meta that evolved from the original 5.5 changes.

 

Before 5.5, it was basically actual dogfighting, gunship chess, bomber spam or the gunship bomberball.

 

The protorp was rarely used because it was too hard to lock and even if you managed it, the lack of locking projectiles in heavy use meant the target likely would have a missile break ready.

 

Now, it not only locks faster from up to 11.5k out, it reloads faster than many missile breaks and STILL bypasses shields AND ignores armor.

 

Remote slicing even in it's current state wouldn't be too useful in the old meta, because pilots would still have to aim and locking the older version of the protorp would be difficult. It would definitely debuff the target, but unlike now it wouldn't be so debilitating.

 

Right now the protorp is practically essential on any strike because of the meta. Clusters lock very quick but barely can penetrate shields so there's little direct hull damage. There's nothing to justify choosing concussion over protorp. Same goes for Ion. Thermite has potential but why bother if you can do direct damage that bypasses shields? One of the best things about emp missile is that it too bypasses shields.

 

If we were able to get away from protorps galore while avoiding the old defensive wall types of old, the game would be in a much better place. Not saying they need to be gone - but gsf as it is now revolves almost completely around them.

Posted
You're misunderstanding what I'm getting at....

 

I'm talking about the whole protorp meta that evolved from the original 5.5 changes.

 

Before 5.5, it was basically actual dogfighting, gunship chess, bomber spam or the gunship bomberball.

 

The protorp was rarely used because it was too hard to lock and even if you managed it, the lack of locking projectiles in heavy use meant the target likely would have a missile break ready.

 

Now, it not only locks faster from up to 11.5k out, it reloads faster than many missile breaks and STILL bypasses shields AND ignores armor.

 

Remote slicing even in it's current state wouldn't be too useful in the old meta, because pilots would still have to aim and locking the older version of the protorp would be difficult. It would definitely debuff the target, but unlike now it wouldn't be so debilitating.

 

Right now the protorp is practically essential on any strike because of the meta. Clusters lock very quick but barely can penetrate shields so there's little direct hull damage. There's nothing to justify choosing concussion over protorp. Same goes for Ion. Thermite has potential but why bother if you can do direct damage that bypasses shields? One of the best things about emp missile is that it too bypasses shields.

 

If we were able to get away from protorps galore while avoiding the old defensive wall types of old, the game would be in a much better place. Not saying they need to be gone - but gsf as it is now revolves almost completely around them.

 

One again Roland I need to stress that I do in fact perfectly understand your point. I have noticed that you do like to suggest I do not understand you. So let me be clear. I do. Just because I am saying we can't ask for a change to too many things, does not mean I lack the understanding of what you are saying. You are correct about why dog-fighting skills diminished and you are correct about why the meta is the way it is and the effect slicing is able to have because of the other changes that took place.. All true. *But* we still can't go asking for a complete revision of the meta, because the chances of that happening are so minimal I don't think it's worth mentioning. What we can do - and at this point looks like it might happen - is ask for a simple nerf on the most debilitating aspect of the current meta. Once again, the fact that I am rebuffing your analyses with requests for a more simple conversation, does not mean that I do not agree with or understand what you are saying. It's just academic to talk about in the context of what we are trying to achieve here. SO let's please keep it to what we do about slicing, rather than other over-arching meta changing ideas.

Posted (edited)
You're misunderstanding what I'm getting at....

 

I'm talking about the whole protorp meta that evolved from the original 5.5 changes.

 

Before 5.5, it was basically actual dogfighting, gunship chess, bomber spam or the gunship bomberball.

 

The protorp was rarely used because it was too hard to lock and even if you managed it, the lack of locking projectiles in heavy use meant the target likely would have a missile break ready.

 

Now, it not only locks faster from up to 11.5k out, it reloads faster than many missile breaks and STILL bypasses shields AND ignores armor.

 

Remote slicing even in it's current state wouldn't be too useful in the old meta, because pilots would still have to aim and locking the older version of the protorp would be difficult. It would definitely debuff the target, but unlike now it wouldn't be so debilitating.

 

Right now the protorp is practically essential on any strike because of the meta. Clusters lock very quick but barely can penetrate shields so there's little direct hull damage. There's nothing to justify choosing concussion over protorp. Same goes for Ion. Thermite has potential but why bother if you can do direct damage that bypasses shields? One of the best things about emp missile is that it too bypasses shields.

 

If we were able to get away from protorps galore while avoiding the old defensive wall types of old, the game would be in a much better place. Not saying they need to be gone - but gsf as it is now revolves almost completely around them.

 

As someone who has played in both meta's, Post 5.5 is far better then pre 5.5. In pre 5.5 only a very select ships, and builds were ever viable. Primarily T2S, T1 GS/T3 GS, T1/T2B. Now we have almost every ship has a viable build. Some of the other ships even have multiple builds that are viable.

 

The current meta means more protorps are out there true, but that doesn't mean you need them to be successful either. My T1F doesn't even use them, obviously no scout uses them, but the T1S/T2S are still very solid ships without protorps. Same can be said for the T1/T3 GS's. The T3F really doesn't have anything else that is decent other then Emp Missile to use, so it doesn't really have many better options.

 

My point is this. We as a GSF community now have more ways to tinker with our builds then all T2S are using BLC or Quads/pods/TT like in the old days, or all of the GS builds being the same. The protorp wars as you call it is part of the reason for this balance.

 

Edit: I think your also looking through rose tinted glasses. Most death matches in the pre 5.5 area tended to be less dogfighting then we get now. The LS tdm almost always turned into GS chess, and kuat mesas tdm most of the time was either a bomberball or a GS chess map as well.

Edited by Toraak
Posted
Also I want to stress again about not asking for too much. The more simple we keep this the more chance the devs take action.

 

I didn't see this line last time - but I'm glad you're starting to realize getting anything changed in regards to GSF is rare.

 

But as I said before - remote slicing is devastating in its current state because you have multiple projectiles being launched at you from multiple directions/angles from up to 11.5k away that bypass both shield and armor. By disabling the missile break AND draining 40 energy it basically prevents the target debuffed from being able to fight back. If hit with RS near obstacles/terrain, the target might make it and avoid getting locked but hardly guaranteed. Out in the open you're basically just waiting for the protorp or railshot to land and kill you. A pilot can come out of nowhere real fast given speed boost and comm range etc.

 

Keeping it "simple" is fine, but explaining the situation in context helps to avoid things like the debacle RS is today. In the old meta, the current RS would still be ignored because there were no projectiles that could be reliably used to kill in a single shot, or at least do so much direct hull damage.

 

Now using RS can be as simple as:

 

Find a target

Get into locking range

Start Locking while getting into RS range

Hit RS and let protorp fly

 

If that fails, the target is debuffed and vulnerable to any of your relatively nearby teammates.

Posted

 

My point is this. We as a GSF community now have more ways to tinker with our builds then all T2S are using BLC or Quads/pods/TT like in the old days, or all of the GS builds being the same. The protorp wars as you call it is part of the reason for this balance.

 

Edit: I think your also looking through rose tinted glasses. Most death matches in the pre 5.5 area tended to be less dogfighting then we get now. The LS tdm almost always turned into GS chess, and kuat mesas tdm most of the time was either a bomberball or a GS chess map as well.

 

Oh I haven't forgotten the old dynamic, put in too many games to forget.

 

T2's scouts are still basically using the same layouts, just changing quads out for another alternative really.

 

Sure you see different gunships in use now, but your typical gunship pilot today is just a shell of what the typical (read not ace level) gunship pilot was then

 

Gunship chess or the Gunship Bomberball was hardly fun, yet common. But at the same time, me having to evade missile locks and multiple people chasing me back and forth across a map isn't exactly fun either. In fact, I see people learning to stick to the pack, so it may not be a bomberball with mines and sentries, but the "strikerball" is just bigger.

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