High time Operatives/Scoundrels got a YUUUUGE nerf bat.

[stoopicus]

All of the classes in this game need a nerf in some form or the other, not just operatives. The game as a whole needs to pull a wow and do an ability/utility squish. Not to the extremes of WoW did, but it needs to happen. Too many tacked on utilities and other crap in the game.

 

One thing is for sure, the TTK in this game is ridiculously high.

[Raansu]

One thing is for sure, the TTK in this game is ridiculously high.

 

Yes, and that's due to the bloat of utilities. Too much mobility, too much self healing.

[TrixxieTriss]

All of the classes in this game need a nerf in some form or the other, not just operatives. The game as a whole needs to pull a wow and do an ability/utility squish. Not to the extremes of WoW did, but it needs to happen. Too many tacked on utilities and other crap in the game.

 

So glad someone else thinks the same.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yes, and that's due to the bloat of utilities. Too much mobility, too much self healing.

 

And too many passive immunities or passives in general that used to require active abilities (looking at you “black out”)

Edited September 3, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[stoopicus]

Yeah. It's not just utility bloat. Though utility bloat is a big part.

 

Defenses are just way too overtuned across the board compared to DPS.

 

Skill bloat is definitely big too though. And not just utilities.

[Jarbarian]

All of the classes in this game need a nerf in some form or the other, not just operatives. The game as a whole needs to pull a wow and do an ability/utility squish. Not to the extremes of WoW did, but it needs to happen. Too many tacked on utilities and other crap in the game.

 

Agreed. PVP is out of scale. It shouldn't be a "3 shot your dead" or "1/2 stun your dead" scenario.

 

Too much healing.

Too much burst damage.

[phabiohost]

I agree. The Op just has a very good kit for dealing with other players. Too much invulnerability and good damage to boot. A very unfun combo to fight against.

[Jarbarian]

They must have recently broken the game last patch. I'm dying on my Slinger in 2 shots. Powertech just breathes on me (or an Operative), DEAD. Cannot get away, cannot hide, cannot heal, cannot defend.

 

Oh joy! Let's make the game LESS FUN!

[TrixxieTriss]

Yeah. It's not just utility bloat. Though utility bloat is a big part.

 

Defenses are just way too overtuned across the board compared to DPS.

 

Skill bloat is definitely big too though. And not just utilities.

Yep, agree. I’m all for diversity in useful skills, but over the years things have slowly gotten a little too much

 

I think my deception Assassin has the least amount of actual skills to use and know. I find it more relaxing to play because of it.

And on a side note, if they finally ever get around to removing guard and taunt from dps classes, then it would have what I feel is the right number of active skills after they add back “black out” as an active ability and not some passive system that lets Stealths get into position to give you a wedgy using no real skill.

Then the Devs could look at that number of skills as a template to reduce ability bloat and utility bloat across the spectrum of classes.

Edited September 6, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[Jarbarian]

Oh yeah every war zone today, fully stacked with operatives on the other team.

They are single handedly ensuring we cap nothing, they cap everything.

 

Telling you. If operatives are not nerfed to the ground this game is dead and people will flee en mass.

[TrixxieTriss]

Oh yeah every war zone today, fully stacked with operatives on the other team.

They are single handedly ensuring we cap nothing, they cap everything.

 

Telling you. If operatives are not nerfed to the ground this game is dead and people will flee en mass.

 

It’s not the solo operative that’s the issue, it’s the class stacking. Most of the solo operatives I come up against in regs aren’t even that good. Of course a good operative still makes me lube up after the first attack

 

This same thing happened early in 6.0 when everyone ran deception sins and you had whole teams of them vs teams with none. You can even go back to 5,0 where you had whole teams of mercs with electro net spam ruining your fun.

 

I think the main issue you’re running into here (we all run into it) is class stacking and the borked up reg matchmaking system. That and people see this sort or class stacking behaviour and it becomes FOTM because of the “if you can’t beat’em, you might as well join them” attitude.

 

If the matchmaking worked, it wouldn’t class stack a whole team of operatives vs a team of non Stealths. And it would not put whole teams of ranged vs whole teams of melee.

 

Removing the matchmaking system won’t fix the class stacking. But the randomness use to be better than this system. Of course that’s not going to stop people playing the FOTM classes and they will still be over represented regardless of a matchmaking system or random system (like old). Sadly, I don’t think there is a fix for that.

 

Even when operatives were undertuned, a whole team of them would have the advantage. That will never change even if they Nerf operatives into the ground. The class is just too versatile in objective pvp and a bunch of them can carry whole teams. You can do the same on a bunch of assassins.

 

Part of the problem is the Stealths now all have a permanent “black out” ability as a passive. Which used to be an active ability with a CD. With it, they can unskilfully stroll up behind you and take their time to get in position and you can’t see them. In the past, they needed to activate it and it had a limit to how long and a CD. This meant they needed some semblance of skill to use it properly.

 

They can also guard and you can run right over them and never know they are there. Where in the past, if you ran over one and “black out“ wasn’t active, you would get a glimpse of them. This still happens in lowbie pvp because they don’t have permanent black out yet and it levels the playing field some.

Bioware need to remove black out as a permanent passive and once again add it to the active ability list with a CD and time limit. I think if they did, you’d find a bunch of those FOTM operatives would stop playing the class and that would reduce a lot of them class stacking,

[Sappharan]

Do people think MMO classes/specs should be balanced around 1v1s? Bc that would be a bad mindset for this game.

 

If anything, the classes should be balanced around how they work in granked. And sure, balance is not this team's strong suit, but can we agree that there will always be a best dueling class. There's nothing wrong that.

 

...as long as it's operative...maybe another class should rule the roost. I main Sentinel...it needn't be Sentinel that rules. In every mmo I have played, stealth rules unquestionably...I'd like to see that change.

 

...2 people can kill a concealment Operative if they're not terrible. You just stun them. Its that easy.

 

You don't see a problem with a dps class requiring more than 1 person to kill? Also, that reflect.

[Jarbarian]

It’s not the solo operative that’s the issue, it’s the class stacking. Most of the solo operatives I come up against in regs aren’t even that good. Of course a good operative still makes me lube up after the first attack

 

I think the main issue you’re running into here (we all run into it) is class stacking and the borked up reg matchmaking system. That and people see this sort or class stacking behaviour and it becomes FOTM because of the “if you can’t beat’em, you might as well join them” attitude.

 

Bioware need to remove black out as a permanent passive and once again add it to the active ability list with a CD and time limit. I think if they did, you’d find a bunch of those FOTM operatives would stop playing the class and that would reduce a lot of them class stacking,

 

True and I agree with most of your sentiment however, I simply think operatives have way too many "get out of jail free cards". The deck is stacked in their favor.

 

They have:

1. Roll (x2, 8 seconds or 6 seconds with 2 seconds of IMMUNITY).

2. Blind.

3. Maze

4. Stun

5. Vanish

6. HOTs that reduce damage 4% AND heal you.

7. A shield that reduces damage by 8% (so 6+7=11% damage reduction)

8. An evasion that reflects damage AND each time it does, reduces the cool down.

9. Crazy healing when they want it.

10. Massive burst damage + stun lockdown = you're dead.

 

Literally the Operative class cannot be stopped. They just roll through everything and get the 2 second immunity from damage while doing so.

 

The class needs a nerf bat. I'd say increase the roll cooldown and remove the damage immunity. As they are now, it's almost impossible to lock them in place long enough to do any damage.

 

Trust me, even Sorcs whine about Operatives and right now their dots are destroying everything.

[Lhancelot]

Oh yeah every war zone today, fully stacked with operatives on the other team.

They are single handedly ensuring we cap nothing, they cap everything.

 

Telling you. If operatives are not nerfed to the ground this game is dead and people will flee en mass.

 

lolol.

[DavidAtkinson]

It’s not the solo operative that’s the issue, it’s the class stacking. Most of the solo operatives I come up against in regs aren’t even that good. Of course a good operative still makes me lube up after the first attack

 

This same thing happened early in 6.0 when everyone ran deception sins and you had whole teams of them vs teams with none. You can even go back to 5,0 where you had whole teams of mercs with electro net spam ruining your fun.

 

I think the main issue you’re running into here (we all run into it) is class stacking and the borked up reg matchmaking system. That and people see this sort or class stacking behaviour and it becomes FOTM because of the “if you can’t beat’em, you might as well join them” attitude.

 

If the matchmaking worked, it wouldn’t class stack a whole team of operatives vs a team of non Stealths. And it would not put whole teams of ranged vs whole teams of melee.

 

Removing the matchmaking system won’t fix the class stacking. But the randomness use to be better than this system. Of course that’s not going to stop people playing the FOTM classes and they will still be over represented regardless of a matchmaking system or random system (like old). Sadly, I don’t think there is a fix for that.

 

Even when operatives were undertuned, a whole team of them would have the advantage. That will never change even if they Nerf operatives into the ground. The class is just too versatile in objective pvp and a bunch of them can carry whole teams. You can do the same on a bunch of assassins.

 

Part of the problem is the Stealths now all have a permanent “black out” ability as a passive. Which used to be an active ability with a CD. With it, they can unskilfully stroll up behind you and take their time to get in position and you can’t see them. In the past, they needed to activate it and it had a limit to how long and a CD. This meant they needed some semblance of skill to use it properly.

 

They can also guard and you can run right over them and never know they are there. Where in the past, if you ran over one and “black out“ wasn’t active, you would get a glimpse of them. This still happens in lowbie pvp because they don’t have permanent black out yet and it levels the playing field some.

Bioware need to remove black out as a permanent passive and once again add it to the active ability list with a CD and time limit. I think if they did, you’d find a bunch of those FOTM operatives would stop playing the class and that would reduce a lot of them class stacking,

 

I thought that you of all people already figured it out that one of the reasons class stacking happens is because there is too many players queing on an " OVERPOWERED" class/classes ?

 

Operatives , fury maras, that 3 button instant kill spec called Advanced Prototype are overly represented in any type of que. Be it ranked or unranked and the chances of these classes to be stacked in one team are always greater. I am not saying that this issue can't be fixed, but class balance is a huge contributor to the problem.

 

I will never ever comprehend why Bioware allows some classes to be totally 3 button killers, while others are instant dead auto losses in ranked for example.

 

Operatives on the other hand are an old story . While dueling them in warzones on my mara, I expect nothing and accept the fact that I am most likely toast anyway because no matter what I do , they can easily outheal me or resist a lot of dmg with their rolls. It's not hard... People should stop expecting to walk over everything in PVP.

Edited September 7, 2020 by DavidAtkinson

[TrixxieTriss]

Played 6 hours and every match bar one had multiple operatives on the teams. When your the only non stealth on your team, guess who gets focused first. Still, I only saw one outstanding op. The rest were very average to bad.

It also seems sins are in favour again after a small drought. Seen a bunch more of those today than any other day in the last two weeks. Is there a nerf or buff coming for them tomorrow that I don’t know about?

Edited September 7, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

I thought that you of all people already figured it out that one of the reasons class stacking happens is because there is too many players queing on an " OVERPOWERED" class/classes ?

 

Operatives , fury maras, that 3 button instant kill spec called Advanced Prototype are overly represented in any type of que. Be it ranked or unranked and the chances of these classes to be stacked in one team are always greater. I am not saying that this issue can't be fixed, but class balance is a huge contributor to the problem.

 

I will never ever comprehend why Bioware allows some classes to be totally 3 button killers, while others are instant dead auto losses in ranked for example.

 

Operatives on the other hand are an old story . While dueling them in warzones on my mara, I expect nothing and accept the fact that I am most likely toast anyway because no matter what I do , they can easily outheal me or resist a lot of dmg with their rolls. It's not hard... People should stop expecting to walk over everything in PVP.

 

Oh, I know why there are so many. 4 ops vs any team in 8v8 team with no stealth should be an instant win. I was just pointing out that what he posted was magnified by the class stacking.

 

Yes the ops are strong at the moment and I dare say the bane of my existence on a Jugg. They do have too many passive immunities and always the advantage in a fight. That damn roll immunity is a killer when you have high lag and you use a stun and blow it cause you realise too late they’ve started to roll. Far too much guess work involved at 200ms and they have it up constantly.

 

I have worked out now how to deal with one or two at a time if they are average. But a good one still make me cringe and I know it’s a forgone conclusion. That’s the only good thing that’s come out of so many operatives playing at the moment. I’m force to face down the anxiety they usually give me and deal with them. So I’m getting lots of practice I can tell you. Thank god for Valium and red wine,

Edited September 7, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[Lodinn]

Oh lol, I can't really tell if OP is trolling or if we legitimately have yet another nerf operative thread with the promises of doom and gloom and saying "JUST LOOK HOW OP THIS ABILITY AND THAT ABILITY IS!!1".

 

If it's somehow the latter, please consider context as already hinted at. While operatives are doing their godrolls and healing, they deal basically no damage. Learning vulnerability windows and counterplays is at the core of pvp, and good operatives require you to be at their skill level to efficiently deal with them in regs. I'm that noob who got stalled by Snave few too many times but that's a great opportunity to learn right there. If to you getting outplayed without an obvious way to match evenly is frustrating, I'm sorry - personally, these encounters surely helped me way more than pressing the same, mostly just PvE rotation every time and kick asses of people who somehow managed to be even worse than me.

 

With all that said, being able to stall vs 2 somewhat competent and 3-4 less so people feels overtuned to me as well. When some 5v5 at the middle turret lasts indefinitely with very few deaths but one sapcap decides the fate of the match... It's a problem. There's a huge connected issue of TTK as well; people give up on turret maps after being behind for a minute or so because a good operative being able to stall a couple of people alone means that 2x2 operatives and 4x anyone can cover all 3 points and hold them for ages without even considering getting help. People just start quitting because of not seeing opportunities to cap vs operatives, juggs or mercs any soon.

[ReinhartRussian]

Oh lol, I can't really tell if OP is trolling or if we legitimately have yet another nerf operative thread with the promises of doom and gloom and saying "JUST LOOK HOW OP THIS ABILITY AND THAT ABILITY IS!!1".

 

If it's somehow the latter, please consider context as already hinted at. While operatives are doing their godrolls and healing, they deal basically no damage. Learning vulnerability windows and counterplays is at the core of pvp, and good operatives require you to be at their skill level to efficiently deal with them in regs. I'm that noob who got stalled by Snave few too many times but that's a great opportunity to learn right there. If to you getting outplayed without an obvious way to match evenly is frustrating, I'm sorry - personally, these encounters surely helped me way more than pressing the same, mostly just PvE rotation every time and kick asses of people who somehow managed to be even worse than me.

 

With all that said, being able to stall vs 2 somewhat competent and 3-4 less so people feels overtuned to me as well. When some 5v5 at the middle turret lasts indefinitely with very few deaths but one sapcap decides the fate of the match... It's a problem. There's a huge connected issue of TTK as well; people give up on turret maps after being behind for a minute or so because a good operative being able to stall a couple of people alone means that 2x2 operatives and 4x anyone can cover all 3 points and hold them for ages without even considering getting help. People just start quitting because of not seeing opportunities to cap vs operatives, juggs or mercs any soon.

 

If you are saying it's a big dps loss and not great of a cool down then let's remove it.

 

Roll is overturned and so are defensives of operative. They gotta lose either self healing or consistent rolls. Class is literally the last one to get tunneled, a good indication of it having to m many defensives.

[AocaVII]

Played 6 hours and every match bar one had multiple operatives on the teams. When your the only non stealth on your team, guess who gets focused first. Still, I only saw one outstanding op. The rest were very average to bad.

It also seems sins are in favour again after a small drought. Seen a bunch more of those today than any other day in the last two weeks. Is there a nerf or buff coming for them tomorrow that I don’t know about?

 

 

I been saying in many posts that there shouldn't stacking stealth permitted; the PvP system permitting it. I mean I see 2-3 stealth pop up on people stun lock and global people, and also if you're trying to cap a node with 4 stealth, good luck.

 

Like I said, this should have been thought of before they buffed sin and ops. It's unconceivable that it's even allowed. People hop on 2 sins or ops and just kill in 2 seconds. How do you not see that coming in design? 😂

 

How do you continue to allow it?

 

It's a poor man's way to pvp. Two stealth open up on you fully buffed; that requires great skill 👍 LoL

 

It's not necessarily 1 op or 1 sin nerfed and done. IDC let them have their burst but at this point with this many complains enjoy operatives/sins while you can eventually they will nerf them so bad that they will be not worth playing lol

 

 

It's class stacking WITH multiple stealth that you don't see coming; now you see 2-3 pts plus the 2-3 stealth. You better be awful aware and prepared for that type of burst lol

Edited September 12, 2020 by AocaVII

[TrixxieTriss]

PT/ VG spam is getting worse. Been told they are the new FOTM

[DragonLadyK]

It's high time you took away roll immunity and cut healing by 75% (so they are on par with other classes)

Utter trash game right now for PVP.

 

Only if that change only works a pvp environment. This is the first patch in a long time that ops have been viable for HM content as heals.

 

Because there are so many damn cast times and hots to Op healing and so much burst damage + position-changing in HM boss fights, by the time op heals performs as well as the other classes in a PVE environment, it's OP in pvp. They need to bring back pvp gear and the pvp modifier stat. It would make class balancing 100% less headache (and not force pvp players to pve for gear). Personally, I'd rather farm two sets of gear than these random heal-nerf-bats that make the least-nerfed heal class mandatory for pve.

[Sappharan]

Personally, I'd rather farm two sets of gear than these random heal-nerf-bats that make the least-nerfed heal class mandatory for pve.

 

There are people who know, but I still don't understand why they abandoned expertise and PvP gear. Balance seemed better then.

[RomichGausser]

As someone who's been maining an operative since 2012 right after the massive nerf operatives have received, I've grown to.. appreciate other classes' concerns when it comes to operatives.

 

The self-healing and the roll makes it essentially impossible for anyone to reliably kill an operative. Even when I was trying to duel another operative as an assassin, the only way I managed to beat them was through vanish-sap healing since most of the damage I did to them was either mitigated by Stim Boost's healing or just the kolto probe spam. And mind you, that operative was still learning and practicing their class. But if that operative was a little more skilled, there's absolutely no way I would have won.

 

With all that said, the one thing I'd be more more MORE than happy to see disappear into the void forever is the Blow for Blow (reflect on Evasion) utility, as it's substantially lowering the skill ceiling for an operative while seriously punishing someone who might have been a little overly aggressive with their burst. If for example an AP powertech jumps on an operative with Thermal Detonator and Energy Burst combo, they might realize too late that while they took off around 30% of the operative's health, they themselves already lost 50% without the operative even landing a finger on them.

 

A class that literally turn invincible and untouchable every few seconds while also being able to self heal indefinitely should not have this kind of power as it's making killing them into an exercise of futility.

[Sappharan]

As someone who's been maining an operative since 2012 right after the massive nerf operatives have received, I've grown to.. appreciate other classes' concerns when it comes to operatives.

 

The self-healing and the roll makes it essentially impossible for anyone to reliably kill an operative. Even when I was trying to duel another operative as an assassin, the only way I managed to beat them was through vanish-sap healing since most of the damage I did to them was either mitigated by Stim Boost's healing or just the kolto probe spam. And mind you, that operative was still learning and practicing their class. But if that operative was a little more skilled, there's absolutely no way I would have won.

 

With all that said, the one thing I'd be more more MORE than happy to see disappear into the void forever is the Blow for Blow (reflect on Evasion) utility, as it's substantially lowering the skill ceiling for an operative while seriously punishing someone who might have been a little overly aggressive with their burst. If for example an AP powertech jumps on an operative with Thermal Detonator and Energy Burst combo, they might realize too late that while they took off around 30% of the operative's health, they themselves already lost 50% without the operative even landing a finger on them.

 

A class that literally turn invincible and untouchable every few seconds while also being able to self heal indefinitely should not have this kind of power as it's making killing them into an exercise of futility.

 

The red highlighted portion is, I believe, the most important issue. Dunno how that affects PvE though. Perhaps it could be nerfed in PvP only?